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Grand Strategy Crusader Kings III

Axioms

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I don't interpret that like this. You play as state which has a series of rulers, but they are more fleshed out than in games like EU4 and there is more incorporation of personalist politics.
There isn't much to interpret to be honest, because it is not a matter of opinion.

In CK you have relationships with individual people and everything is very personal, from marriages to wars. In Europa Universalis you play literally as a state and your rulers are just a bunch of stats. In Imperator you play as a state (like in Europa Universalis), but you also have some fleshed out individuals who can play a role in the government so there can be a clash of personalities.

So I disagree that it is just a "marketing gimmick". While CK3 has a lot of flaws, it is very distinct in its approach to gameplay.
I am referring to CK2. CK3's interface is too infuriating so I am not playing that. At the same time, it seems to be improving. For example, I heard that one of the DLCs actually adds the economic map mode which was bizarrely missing. Perhaps with time they will return to the functionality of the older games, so I'll just wait a few more years until it is all fixed.

It is very much a matter of opinion. If it were to be a personal simulator, it would be a disastrous game as this element is very shallow and peripheral to success, and the grand strategy genre is a poor fit for it. The CYOA genre like Sir Brante, Suzerain, perhaps King of Dragon Pass is a good fit. This is like saying you are playing individual colonists in Rimworld rather than playing a colony.

Ideally, all of their games should simply have well fleshed out elements which include persons, population, province development beyond the basics, and a decent research system (something like HoI4 or better). Victoria 2 probably approaches it all best, but CK2 is not far behind in terms of detail as there are many ways in which you can affect the domain. E.g., an interesting choice is whether to concentrate your holdings in one county for the bonuses from councilors or go wide. It's interesting to manage the kingdom, come up with bureaucratic solutions like creating a theocratic vassal that would expand on his own. The "personal politics" mostly boils down to pop-up events that repeat over and over.
I wouldn't call it a marketing gimmick per say, but CK3 absolutely *fails to deliver* on the promise. CK3, like most Paradox games, really does have an uncommon premise, but they all generally don't succeed at their goals. Except EU4, easily the best PDox game. Solid 8/10.
 

Humanophage

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Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,441
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good, the problem was not the interface but the lagged mid-game turns. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,685
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
 

Axioms

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Messages
1,630
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
6,685
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.

There are other problems than just that. I mean consider just the character screen:
ck3-preview-hands-on-2.jpg
Both character screens show roughly the same exact information bar some minor differences. Only CK2's needs only like half the space and looks pretty – paper, wood, ornamentation, and it actually has different styles based on religion. CK3's is ugly as fuck in comparison. The 3D models and transparency kill any sort of stylization.
 

Axioms

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Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,630
I was thinking maybe I was getting old and just can't adapt to sensible interfaces in games I haven't played previously. Now, I actually play a fair amount of new strategies. For example, I only tried Endless Space 2 last year. I tried Fields of Glory: Empires a bit earlier on, and it was good. I usually don't have much trouble with interface even if it is a bit suboptimal. But I've just tried Civilization 5 for the first time, starting with a UI mod, and it works perfectly fine. I am quite satisfied with the UI there, both in terms of functionality and aesthetics. Everything is visible and understandable, and reasonably positioned. No annoying attempts to conceal things you can find out anyway. So it's just a trash-tier UI in CK3, not me.
It's not you, CK3's UI is just cancer, that's all. Said so since release. I think Victoria 3 later revealed what degenerate design it leads to down the line too - information hidden in a tooltip within a tooltip within a tooltip. CK2 UI was awesome in comparison.
When all you have is a hammer, and Paradox only has hammers in every part of their design theory, everything looks like a nail. Jon Shafer pioneered a brilliant UI innovation and the braindead zombies at Paradox just slapped it on everything regardless of if it was appropriate because critical thought is beyond them.

When you are using nested/dynamic tooltips you need to spend *more time* not *less time* thinking about what layer any given information should be stored in. Additionally my understanding is that Shafer's concept was more like a superior Civpedia where you defined keywords and such that could then be moused over to explain related game concepts. It wasn't about hiding information relevant to the primary function of the base level tooltip. That is certainly how ATG itself uses them.

There are other problems than just that. I mean consider just the character screen:
Both character screens show roughly the same exact information bar some minor differences. Only CK2's needs only like half the space and looks pretty – paper, wood, ornamentation, and it actually has different styles based on religion. CK3's is ugly as fuck in comparison. The 3D models and transparency kill any sort of stylization.
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game. Which turns out was absolutely the right call since V3 and CK3 are both trash. I def agree that the UI theming of CK3 sucks as well but I imagine it was done for modding purposes.
 

thesecret1

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Messages
6,685
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game. Which turns out was absolutely the right call since V3 and CK3 are both trash. I def agree that the UI theming of CK3 sucks as well but I imagine it was done for modding purposes.
There's also the matter of the UI in CK3 controlling like shit. I distinctly recall waging battles with the dynasty tree screen because it was a nightmare to basically get an overview of a noble house using it (something that was never a problem in CK2). CK3 also divided the main toolbar – instead of having everything in the top left like CK2, you have the character in bottom left (why? Fucking why?), and the rest of the menu in top right. There's actually a ton of things like these all over CK3's UI, making it a pain to use. So many little things, but it just adds up, especially when most of the damn game is in the UI. So many clicks, so much wasted space, so many unwieldy design decisions. Also the map is ugly as sin (not the paper one when zoomed out, but the zoomed in one that you spend 90% of the time looking at).
 
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.
 

Axioms

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Messages
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.
Obviously if games had infinite budget and staff and development time and CPU and GPU and RAM limits and so on then 3D models are fine. And if we could reduce them in the UI. Why not let people have a button to reduce them down in size? But none of those things are true. I mean ideally we'd have a full on amazing looking walking sim and awesome AI generated stories and dialogue and shit. But again that isn't the choice.

Their marketing focus on the 3D models was a hint on where they "primary development focus" was. And it was a depressing one.
 

thesecret1

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I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
You think those cartoony abominations are hot? :prosper:
 

Minecrawler

Educated
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Jun 13, 2020
Messages
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Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.
They are considerably less moddable than 2d images, especially with the whole gene morphing stuff, so in the end you are still left with purple CK3 style humans with long ears. And for everything slightly different from a standard humanoid you would need to basically design something new from scratch. Or use models from Reforged, I suppose. But even those won't quite fit, because stylistically CK3 is too different. Also they will be (90-100%) static, so you'll have humanoid races looking like cosplayers and non-humanoids looking like cheap props.
It's basically created for AGOT and everything similar to AGOT. It's fantasy incest sims even on the real map anyway.

Discussions on plaza about how depicting slavery would be "problematic" or there's "no real need for it" in a DLC about Persia and islamic world are quite a sight to behold. That's right after I learned that death screams after executions were removed because playtesters were "disturbed". Just how much of a clown show you need to make out of a "historical" game?
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
 

Axioms

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The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
Ck3 is incapable of modeling a clan/tribe system, though. The character density is too low. It is always going to be mechanically similar to their, actually Indian style feudal system with some stupid bi-drectional meters.
 

darkpatriot

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Messages
6,285
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
 
Last edited:

Space Satan

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Space Hell
The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
It WAS "like feudal but worse". It was literally a backward social structure with next to zero capabilities to stand against organized armies.
 

Axioms

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Messages
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.
 

darkpatriot

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
6,285
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.

Any game that attempts any kind of emergent storytelling that doesn't engage with and make use of player imagination is missing the entire point.

The mechanics don't need to fully simulate every aspect of something, only enough to provide a skeleton for imagination to take over. Human beings are natural storytellers and also naturally create stories from random and unrelated events. A game looking for any kind of emergent storytelling needs to leverage that in order to be successful.

CK3 is more than successful at this. The initial base game was still lacking in this regard, imo, but the DLCs have managed to add enough additional mechanical elements and events to more than adequately form the necessary skeleton at this point.


I am aware on their comments regarding landless characters, but they are also going to be supporting this game for a long time. And Paradox has never had any issue with deviating from their previous promises and statements in the past. I think there is a 50/50 chance we will see some kind of landless player character gameplay in the coming years. Probably not geared towards playing forever as a landless character, but to allow for some transitional gameplay. Either as a start where you don't start with land, or as a way to keep playing when you lose your land to let you try to get it back or gain new lands.
 

Axioms

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Developer
Joined
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Messages
1,630
Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.

Any game that attempts any kind of emergent storytelling that doesn't engage with and make use of player imagination is missing the entire point.

The mechanics don't need to fully simulate every aspect of something, only enough to provide a skeleton for imagination to take over. Human beings are natural storytellers and also naturally create stories from random and unrelated events. A game looking for any kind of emergent storytelling needs to leverage that in order to be successful.

CK3 is more than successful at this. The initial base game was still lacking in this regard, imo, but the DLCs have managed to add enough additional mechanical elements and events to more than adequately form the necessary skeleton at this point.


I am aware on their comments regarding landless characters, but they are also going to be supporting this game for a long time. And Paradox has never had any issue with deviating from their previous promises and statements in the past. I think there is a 50/50 chance we will see some kind of landless player character gameplay in the coming years. Probably not geared towards playing forever as a landless character, but to allow for some transitional gameplay. Either as a start where you don't start with land, or as a way to keep playing when you lose your land to let you try to get it back or gain new lands.
I want characters to have meaningful differentiation like hobbies, interests, talents, personality, social custom, and ideological preferences, and so on. If I am extroverted and like philosophy and so is another guy we can set up debates with ourselves and maybe a few others and then we are bros. If I like horseriding and nature and so does another guy we can go ride in the forest and do birdwatching or some shit. If we have nothing in common we can't be friends. Like you won't have specific speeches we give at the debate or w/e and the player is still imagining the specific bird we see or the plants in the forest but the characters are differentiated.

"We need 3D models but no social simulation" is a galaxy brain DnD theatre kid moron take.
 

darkpatriot

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.

Any game that attempts any kind of emergent storytelling that doesn't engage with and make use of player imagination is missing the entire point.

The mechanics don't need to fully simulate every aspect of something, only enough to provide a skeleton for imagination to take over. Human beings are natural storytellers and also naturally create stories from random and unrelated events. A game looking for any kind of emergent storytelling needs to leverage that in order to be successful.

CK3 is more than successful at this. The initial base game was still lacking in this regard, imo, but the DLCs have managed to add enough additional mechanical elements and events to more than adequately form the necessary skeleton at this point.


I am aware on their comments regarding landless characters, but they are also going to be supporting this game for a long time. And Paradox has never had any issue with deviating from their previous promises and statements in the past. I think there is a 50/50 chance we will see some kind of landless player character gameplay in the coming years. Probably not geared towards playing forever as a landless character, but to allow for some transitional gameplay. Either as a start where you don't start with land, or as a way to keep playing when you lose your land to let you try to get it back or gain new lands.
I want characters to have meaningful differentiation like hobbies, interests, talents, personality, social custom, and ideological preferences, and so on. If I am extroverted and like philosophy and so is another guy we can set up debates with ourselves and maybe a few others and then we are bros. If I like horseriding and nature and so does another guy we can go ride in the forest and do birdwatching or some shit. If we have nothing in common we can't be friends. Like you won't have specific speeches we give at the debate or w/e and the player is still imagining the specific bird we see or the plants in the forest but the characters are differentiated.

"We need 3D models but no social simulation" is a galaxy brain DnD theatre kid moron take.

If you were talking about the base game at release, I would basically agree with you. But it sounds like you haven't actually played any recent versions. Most of those things were added in with Tours and Tournaments, along with many things that you didn't mention, but some of the mechanics and content to define your character, their relation to others, and various social interactions were added in Royal Court. And some of that was already set up in the base game, although not enough to really pull it off.

The 3D models are definitely helpful though. It allows a visual presentation of your character and other characters (Including their status, culture, and even some aspects of their history) during the scenes that are more expressive and even provide details about the characters that just wouldn't be possible with just a single picture, or even static 2D portraits.

You can argue till you are blue in the face that Crusader Kings 3 doesn't have these things, but I have played it (although not with wards and wardens yet) so I know that it accomplishes these things in a more than satisfactory manner. You can't tell me something isn't there when I have see it with my own eyes. There is still room for improvement, but it looks like this is an area that Paradox will be focus on for future mechanics and content. So there will be even more.

I understand how the folks who want a Grand Strategy game would be disappointed though. The direction they have taken and are taking CK3 in is moving it well out of the Grand Strategy wheelhouse and providing that experience. I am fine with that though. Because, while it isn't the most well represented genre, there are still numerous alternative Grand Strategy games to play, while CK3 is unique as I can think of no other game that does the type of gameplay that it does.
 
Last edited:

Zed

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The next update will overhaul the Clan system. Finally, it felt like such a weird government type. Like Feudal but worse.
It WAS "like feudal but worse". It was literally a backward social structure with next to zero capabilities to stand against organized armies.
Sure but I meant gameplay-wise.

The new Unity system sounds like it could be a fun thing to try to maintain.
 

Axioms

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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.
First they have pledged never to allow landless characters, in fact one reason they don't put in Republics and Theocracies is that it is at odds with the dynasty/family sequential character play.

Second you have it all wrong. The role play aspects suck. If the roleplay/character mechanics were deep and awesome I'd be happy. But they aren't. Characters barely interact, most characters are interchangeable and completely indistinguishable from any other character. You must be one of those DnD people who just creates everything in his head canon and doesn't care if the gameplay doesn't actually support anything.

Any game that attempts any kind of emergent storytelling that doesn't engage with and make use of player imagination is missing the entire point.

The mechanics don't need to fully simulate every aspect of something, only enough to provide a skeleton for imagination to take over. Human beings are natural storytellers and also naturally create stories from random and unrelated events. A game looking for any kind of emergent storytelling needs to leverage that in order to be successful.

CK3 is more than successful at this. The initial base game was still lacking in this regard, imo, but the DLCs have managed to add enough additional mechanical elements and events to more than adequately form the necessary skeleton at this point.


I am aware on their comments regarding landless characters, but they are also going to be supporting this game for a long time. And Paradox has never had any issue with deviating from their previous promises and statements in the past. I think there is a 50/50 chance we will see some kind of landless player character gameplay in the coming years. Probably not geared towards playing forever as a landless character, but to allow for some transitional gameplay. Either as a start where you don't start with land, or as a way to keep playing when you lose your land to let you try to get it back or gain new lands.
I want characters to have meaningful differentiation like hobbies, interests, talents, personality, social custom, and ideological preferences, and so on. If I am extroverted and like philosophy and so is another guy we can set up debates with ourselves and maybe a few others and then we are bros. If I like horseriding and nature and so does another guy we can go ride in the forest and do birdwatching or some shit. If we have nothing in common we can't be friends. Like you won't have specific speeches we give at the debate or w/e and the player is still imagining the specific bird we see or the plants in the forest but the characters are differentiated.

"We need 3D models but no social simulation" is a galaxy brain DnD theatre kid moron take.

If you were talking about the base game at release, I would basically agree with you. But it sounds like you haven't actually played any recent versions. Most of those things were added in with Tours and Tournaments, along with many things that you didn't mention, but some of the mechanics and content to define your character, their relation to others, and various social interactions were added in Royal Court. And some of that was already set up in the base game, although not enough to really pull it off.

The 3D models are definitely helpful though. It allows a visual presentation of your character and other characters (Including their status, culture, and even some aspects of their history) during the scenes that are more expressive and even provide details about the characters that just wouldn't be possible with just a single picture, or even static 2D portraits.

You can argue till you are blue in the face that Crusader Kings 3 doesn't have these things, but I have played it (although not with wards and wardens yet) so I know that it accomplishes these things in a more than satisfactory manner. You can't tell me something isn't there when I have see it with my own eyes. There is still room for improvement, but it looks like this is an area that Paradox will be focus on for future mechanics and content. So there will be even more.

I understand how the folks who want a Grand Strategy game would be disappointed though. The direction they have taken and are taking CK3 in is moving it well out of the Grand Strategy wheelhouse and providing that experience. I am fine with that though. Because, while it isn't the most well represented genre, there are still numerous alternative Grand Strategy games to play, while CK3 is unique as I can think of no other game that does the type of gameplay that it does.
Absolutely none of those things were added in T&T. I think maybe you are just not understanding the scope of what I'm describing. Like you can find minor individual examples of something vaguely similar to the words I used or something. Like if I really squint I can sorta say well maybe he's talking about this really minor and simplistic thing and he lacks the context to understand how limited the implementation of it is.
 
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Well as I'm sure everyone on this forum knows I'm a massive 3D model hater. In fact the minutes I saw them I decided not to buy the game, or any other Paradox game.
I think the 3D models are absolutely the right call and pretty cool tech, they do help in matters like immersion, being cinematic and such.
(also you can now decide to marry based on which women is hotter to you, which is kinda realistic ngl lol)
Plus they are moddable, its crazy awesome to see Guardians of Azeroth managed to use them to make Warcraft races.

Its just that the game has immense problems elsewhere.

Honestly, where I really want to see the 3D models is in Stellaris 2. You could really get crazy with customizable aliens, people modding their own alien races and posting them on the internet, etc etc. Paradox could easily dunk on Spore big time.

I am also a big fan of the 3D models. It allows more of the focus to be put on the characters. And I also agree fully with CK3s increased focus on the character and roleplaying aspects over the strategy game aspects. While people who are looking for a strategy game with more fleshed out characters may not like it, I am really digging the unique gameplay. So far the major DLCs have all been focused on beefing up the character and roleplaying aspects, so that seems to be the way Paradox as decided to take this game.

I think a robust RPG/life simulator within a strategy game simulation is a pretty fun model and I would like to see some others besides paradox try their hand at it. So far the more indie attempts, like star dynasties, failed because they still were making strategy games and there just wasn't enough role playing/life simulation content.

With CK2 it always seemed kind of silly to offer the ability to play landless characters, despite it being frequently requested. Too many of the mechanics were tied up in actually ruling lands and fighting wars, but I think CK3 may be able to allow it if they keep expanding the roleplaying focus. The main obstacle seems to be that they would theoretically need to generate even more characters that would need to generate events and make decisions which would impact performance (the reason rulers of baronies aren't playable), but if it is strictly limited to generating characters that are necessary for the landless player to interact with, it might just happen one day.

That's why I am a fan as well.

I do think the Strategy Game part is also important and needs more love. Not just strategy game, but simulation as well.

I agree that I would like to see more games with a similar model as well. I think you could do a lot in a fantasy genre, for example, or different eras.
I always wanted Imperator to be Crusader Kings IN ROME, because the whole thing about the end of the Roman Republic, was that the state had become a vessel for familial/clan interests of Rome's elites, and Rome was evolving towards a model where Legions were loyal to a general not to the Republic. It wans't just "big red roman blob takes over the world", while the big red roman blob was steamrolling everyone, it was slowly but surely brewing in discord and civil strife. Which lead to the Empire.

So it shouldn't have been a game about just ruling the roman state and such, but also a game about making your people take over and create the Empire - or save the Republic, somehow.

I think that Landless Gameplay is pretty possible within their model, and dare I say, necessary for proper medieval simulation. Why? Because getting a game-over screen if you lose all your land but are still alive, is wrong. History is full of cases of deposed lords and monarchs seeking shelter in neighbooring lands and from there, trying to retake their rightful throne. Hell, the AI already does it, but you can't.

Landless Gameplay would also finally allow proper gameplay for all those Great Conqueror types but inherit no land in the map. Seljuk, Temujin, Tamerlane, that guy who founded the Ghaznavids but whose name I forgot, etc.
 

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