DA2 has leaked

[Xor]

I wonder if Bioware will even notice all this backlash and negative feedback?


Although if they do, they'll probably just interpret it as a sign that the game wasn't accessible enough.

 

[Hamster]

I stopped at the gates. Somehow the 'desperate hordes of refugees' refused entry into Kirkwall being no more than a dozen bland models standing feebly around, kind of ruined the effect they were trying to get at.

After 3 day time jump there are literaly just 3 or four refugees in a big square. So lame.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Like this:

"They threw out many (most?) RPG elements (which sucked anyway)"

"good for what it is".

"If you expect an RPG with like skills and lengthy dialogues, or you can't get over the fact that it says role-playing game somewhere on the box, then it's not for you."

"lashing out at DA2 just because it's not a sequel I wanted is kinda silly"

"It's an action RPG. Would you complain about the quest design in Diablo or Sacred?"

"Why would you expect it when every article, interview, and video have suggested otherwise? "

And?

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

I wonder if Bioware will even notice all this backlash and negative feedback?


Although if they do, they'll probably just interpret it as a sign that the game wasn't accessible enough.

As long as people keep buying it while complaining, Bioware probably won't give two shits. The only way to make a developer notice is to not buy the game.




And no, I'm not talking about pirating it this time either.

 

[Exmit]

Playing it right now.

Much much better than Dragon Age Origins, it's good for what it is. Good job Bioware (although a proper Baldur's Gate would be in order)



Now let's see how Dungeon Siege 3 will shape up and awaiting for Icewind Dale 3

 

[duanth000]

VD, I think Hamster's understandable point is that one in fact CAN expect more than a simplified, action rpg experience from a game that was falsely marketed as being at least on par (see the Gamebanshee news article on how DA2 is more tactical that BG2) with previous Bioware efforts, which were RPG in at least the most general sense (minor C&C, relatively deep character customization, dialogue responses longer than a sentence). That DA2 didn't "improve" DA's skill systems (more so the non-combat crafting skills) is the least of its sins. And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age. It's exactly the reason why some disklike Fallout 2 (please god, forgive me for such a comparison).

 

[Stabwound]

Well, it finally happened. Bioware went full retard.

 

[Volourn]

"VD, I think Hamster's understandable point is that one in fact CAN expect more than a simplified, action rpg experience from a game that was falsely marketed as being at least on par (see the Gamebanshee news article on how DA2 is more tactical that BG2) with previous Bioware efforts, which were RPG in at least the most general sense (minor C&C, relatively deep character customization, dialogue responses longer than a sentence). That DA2 didn't "improve" DA's skill systems (more so the non-combat crafting skills) is the least of its sins. And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age. It's exactly the reason why some disklike Fallout 2 (please god, forgive me for such a comparison)."

Unless your head was buried in the sand, and youw eren't paying attention to BIO's own words, one was very aware of the changes made to DA2 both good and bad. BIO didn't lie or keep secrets for the most part. Nobody should be shocked about the actual game DA2 is.

If people were expecting DA2 to be DA1.5, they were stupid and that is 100% their fault. It's called change and adapt.

btw, This doesn't mean I agree with or like all the changes that BIo made (as I don't) but to act like there was deception or false promises involved is simply bullshit.

If you want DA1 go play DA1.

That said, imo, the similarties between the two games is a lot more than the differences. DA2 is very much the sequel to DA1. Of coruse, that could be good or bad as well depending what you thoguht of DA1...

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, I think Hamster's understandable point is that one in fact CAN expect more than a simplified, action rpg experience from a game that was falsely marketed as being at least on par (see the Gamebanshee news article on how DA2 is more tactical that BG2) with previous Bioware efforts, which were RPG in at least the most general sense (minor C&C, relatively deep character customization, dialogue responses longer than a sentence).

Maybe I didn't read as much Hamster, but when VoD asked me to write a review, which was back in Dec, my reply was:

"I'm always happy to write something for the Codex (bros and all that), but I wasn't planning to get/play DA2 in the near future. It seems that instead of fixing what was broken in DA, the fuckers decided to make some kinda popamole shit, so I'm planning to wait for the Codex verdict before trying it.

How about this, if when the game is out, the consensus is that it should be reviewed and that it has something worth talking about (i.e. more than "you click a button and something awesome happens"), I'll review it. If it's some dumb shit, we'll leave it for the locals to poke it with sticks. Works for you?"

Unfortunately, VoD didn't take no for an answer and threatened to ban me, so I had no choice but to do his bidding.

And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age.

Why?

It's exactly the reason why some disklike Fallout 2 (please god, forgive me for such a comparison).

The analogy doesn't work. Fallout 2 was a game of the same sub-genre but with a lot of silly shit that didn't fit the setting like ghosts, yakuza, gangsters in casinos, etc. Dragon Age 2 is an action RPG. It's more of a spin-off than a proper sequel, but like I said, I haven't played enough to form a solid opinion.

 

[duanth000]

So, "fight like a general, think like a spartan" wasn't exactly meant to imply that the tactical nature (or whatever Bio had pretended to exist in the first place) of DA had been retained? Did Bioware and it's proxies (many gaming websites) EVER say, aside from marginalized fears (chalked up to the angry "masses" of old-school gamers), that the game was in fact simplified? Does pressing a button repeatedly in order to perform absurdly, world breakingingly (How do rogues teleport, literally how in in-game lore?) unrealistic maneuvers not represent much more than some sort of balance between old and new gameplay, but in fact an entire shift to a shitty, by all standards, action rpg setting. Let's make a list of the "similarities" between DA and DA2:

- Little to no focus on Wardens, a major, active part of game lore.

- Entirely redesigned darkspawn, making them mindless putties that look like total utter shit.
- Drastically, reduced difficulties. Major bosses are not only rinse and repeat but of the easiest sort (bosses, ogres, etc.)
- Drastically redefined characters. So Flemeth is now a fuckable vixen, and not the old hag, as if an old hag appearance would/should have been desirable for an all-powerful uber-creature in the first. And now the qunari have horns?
- Loss of Origins. Entirely. And remember, we're talking about similarities, not improvements.
- Loss of different playable races. Hope you didn't like elves or dwarves. Again, similarities.
- Companion depth/appreciation. There have been dozens of reports now, by fans who clearly fall into biotard category, that the characters are much less memorable than in DA1. And Bioware is practically defined by its characters/writing ( )
- Companion customization. Hope you didn't enjoy outfitting your fellow companions with new armor (not fucking talking about static upgrade opportunities)!
- Skills. No more crafting. And having someone deliver you potions/poisons does not a crafting skill make.
- Voice Acting. Is it even arguable that the VA in DAII is good or even serviceable, insofar as most characters are voiced well. It's practicaly TW level.
- Writing. The dialogue wheel is "similar" to DA1, which at least had typically more than three responses, which ACTUALLY CORRESPONDED to what you said, unlike in this piece of shit. Not only that, but in DA1 could your responses always be boiled down to pussy/cheeky/asshole? Mostly, no and not a similarity.

This is the tip of the iceberg. So tell me, what are the similarities? The fact that both games inspire a deep sense of regret and revulsion over the fact that RPGs continue to be devolved by Bioware? Otherwise, I guess they both do come in a box.

 

[Sceptic]

And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age.

Why?

Maybe because, it's called, you know, DRAGON AGE 2?

I can see how trying to out-edge the Codex can be fun, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

[duanth000]

To VD,
Fallout 2 may have been just as much a disappointment as DA2 if one allows for a definition of difference between games that expands beyond "action-RPG" versus "RPG". I think Fallout 2 was rightfully lamented by some because of its contradiction of the tone of F1 (grim, relatively serious in dialogue and player choice as reflective of the game world, a post-apocalypse). The mere fact that it could have even been a greater deviation from what preceded it, and given that both F2 and DA2 were not, ever, advertised or previewed as spin-offs, which is a legitimate soure of complaint given most people rely on gaming media to inform their consumer choices, is no excuse for the Codexian disappointment going on. I think also it's fair to argue that DA2, for right or wrong reasons, is acting as the nadir in public approvement of Bioware's design choices throughout the years, whcih perhaps leads to consistently lower user reviews but which also balance out the the inflated scores that Bioware's games have received in the past. In other words, it's deserving that Bioware have their games reviewed in light of their falsely constructed standing in the RPG market. They invited such a perspective in and that, aside from the aforementioned false advertising (never a spin-off), is why such a metric as DA1 is deserved.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age.

Why?

Maybe because, it's called, you know, DRAGON AGE 2?

Like I said many times before, judging a game based on what it's called, based on what it says on the box, based on what the developers, marketing, media claimed it to be, based on what you hoped it would be serves no fucking purpose whatsoever, unless you're reviewing how well the gameplay matches the title.

 

[duanth000]

VD, that's going too far. It puts the average consumer in an untenable position, which is to require them, against both possible judgment and available time investment, to come to a site like this or, maybe, one of a handful of others to be accurately informed. This as opposed to the big sites, that have the most resources and pull. I don't see how such an attitude doesn't hang the neophyte RPG consumer (which might eventually graduate to games like the old SSI series, Planescape, Bloodlines) out to dry and thus further redundify any real RPG market.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

 

[Clockwork Knight]

VD's point is that judging the game based on what it should be (a better Dragon Age 1) isn't very useful compared to judging the game based on the game itself. The former is good for forum wanking, but most people only give a fuck about the game itself being playable. How it was marketed, etc. is another matter.

Using the Fallout 2 example, the game itself was pretty fun despite introducing "a lot of silly shit that didn't fit the setting like ghosts, yakuza, gangsters in casinos, etc".

 

[Volourn]

FO2 > FO1 Period.

DA2 is exactly what BIO said it was be. Anyone claiming to be misinformed is a liar and a tool. Actually quality of stuff notwithstanding.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The mere fact that it could have even been a greater deviation from what preceded it, and given that both F2 and DA2 were not, ever, advertised or previewed as spin-offs, which is a legitimate soure of complaint given most people rely on gaming media to inform their consumer choices, is no excuse for the Codexian disappointment going on.

Did Bioware and it's proxies (many gaming websites) EVER say, aside from marginalized fears (chalked up to the angry "masses" of old-school gamers), that the game was in fact simplified?

Uh, yes?

"So I think there's more people out there with RPGs, and then it's honestly on RPGs to try to figure out how to take the mechanics that people are actually loving in other genres and say, "No, no, no. We had those years ago, but we understand that they kind of were scary."

So there was no mandate, but I mean there were decisions that we made as a team that said, "Okay, this is, I think, more welcoming." Not "dumbed down" or anything like that, but welcoming. Like starting the game, your character walks up, says something kind of over the top, and immediately starts exploding Darkspawn. I haven't set my decks at all. I haven't spent points.

What it does, is it lets you get into the game and go, "Okay, cool. This is what their combat is like. I get that." Then the next thing you do is build your character.

Then you level up and you start spending points, and the RPG mechanics are introduced in a way that's gradual, in a way that welcomes someone who would otherwise maybe go, "Whoa! Too complex!" and shut it off immediately, and lets them slide into it without even recognizing it ‑‑ which frankly, ideally increases the overall RPG customer base, which means we can make more RPGs, which means I can play more RPGs that I don't know the ending to. I like that."

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, that's going too far. It puts the average consumer in an untenable position, which is to require them, against both possible judgment and available time investment, to come to a site like this or, maybe, one of a handful of others to be accurately informed.

Is this a joke?

 

[Hamster]

And when people react to DA2, I'm fairly certain they should be allowed to use a metric such as the first Dragon Age.

Why?

Maybe because, it's called, you know, DRAGON AGE 2?

Like I said many times before, judging a game based on what it's called, based on what it says on the box, based on what the developers, marketing, media claimed it to be, based on what you hoped it would be serves no fucking purpose whatsoever, unless you're reviewing how well the gameplay matches the title.

There is not a single bad design decision that cannot be ignored from such point of view. This position makes any criticism irrelevant. The game may be shit but it doesnt matter, because judging a game based on you hoping it won't be shit "serves no fucking purpose whatsoever".

I think what we see here proves that one cannot be both a developer and a reviewer.

 

[duanth000]

It's not funny, it's true. Not every consumer has the collective memory of years of relatively (by sales number and popularity) obsure rpgs that at the same time represent the best of the genre. What would you expect? How can you argue that not incorporating some objective genre-based standard (rather than the "fun" factor) in a review of a game like DA2 anything less than an abstention of, I don't know, perhaps the responsibility that a very thorough understanding of RPG mechanics implies in a review process? And DA2, despite the PR quotes, was marketed as an RPG, plain and simple. Those quotes, aside from the fact that they mean little to nothing for those who don't have a clear grasp on what constitutes 'RPG mechanics' still imply an extended tutorial followed by RPG mechanics, aka, not a dialogue wheel, which is absolutely anathema to 'RPG mechanics' in any setting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is not a single bad design decision that cannot be ignored from such point of view.

Why? Because reviewing games on their own merits vs what you thought they should be is an impossible task?

I think what we see here proves that one cannot be both a developer and a reviewer.

Yay! A cheap shot! How delightfully unexpected.

How about you go and play the game for more than an hour before you start attacking other people?

 

[Hamster]

How about you go and play the game for more than an hour

What will it change? For any criticism you will just freely change the set of required merits to make criticism irrelevant.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's not funny, it's true. Not every consumer has the collective memory of years of relatively (by sales number and popularity) obsure rpgs that at the same time represent the best of the genre. What would you expect? How can you argue that not incorporating some objective genre-based standard (rather than the "fun" factor) in a review of a game like DA2 anything less than an abstention of, I don't know, perhaps the responsibility that a very thorough understanding of RPG mechanics implies in a review process? And DA2, despite the PR quotes, was marketed as an RPG, plain and simple. Those quotes, aside from the fact that they mean little to nothing for those who don't have a clear grasp on what constitutes 'RPG mechanics' still imply an extended tutorial followed by RPG mechanics, aka, not a dialogue wheel, which is absolutely anathema to 'RPG mechanics' in any setting.

I'd expect people to know what they're buying to avoid unpleasant surprises. Before I discovered the Codex, I'd read some reviews, and if they won't give me a good idea of what to expect, then I'd keep looking until I find a more informative site or forum, but hey maybe I'm some kinda genius.

 

[racofer]

How about you go and play the game for more than an hour before you start attacking other people?

Even if he did that and he concluded that the game has its redeeming factors and, maker forbid, it's actually good, he would never say that in here.

Codex is about bitching and moaning about everything that shares a console port. Even more so if it comes from a big studio like Bioware and it contains cliché marketing buzzwords thrown into the mix and a strong fanbase.

Game is good, I know that, you know that, other people here know that but most of them will never say that out loud and risk having their KKKs taken away.