Incline Dark Heart of Uukrul Discussion Thread

[Jaesun]

Interestingly..... there is no record of a trademark for "Dark Heart of Uukrul" or "The Dark Heart of Uukrul". So that name is up for grabs....

But the IP of the original owner still stands, I would think.

In before Fargo registers this.....

 

[Crooked Bee]

I assume that whoever is hoarding the Broderbund rights, has this one too?

I've no idea, to be honest, but iirc Buis & Boswell don't have it either. I could ask them again once I email them next time, though, just to be sure.

 

[Jaesun]

OK yeah. Who ever purchased all the rights to Broderbund's titles, would own the IP I assume. Similar to how UBISoft owns all of the SSI titles. I think that is how it works.

 

[vanshilar]

Looking into the 5150-sample data set, it turns out that the stat increases work somewhat differently than what I had stated. It's not simply that each stat has a uniform chance of increasing at each level-up. Instead, for the fighter:

* At level 2, 7, and 12, int will definitely increase (up to 20).
* At level 3, 8, and 13, dex will definitely increase (up to 20).
* At level 4, 9, and 14, str will definitely increase (up to 20).
* At level 5, 10, and 15, pie will definitely increase (up to 20).
* At level 6 and 11, vit will definitely increase (up to 20).

Basically, one of the stats is guaranteed to increase at each level. Then at the "off-levels" (where the increase isn't guaranteed), from the data it looks like the probability is pretty uniform (relative to the current stat just before leveling and the current level, anyway); it looks like:

* Str will increase 30.25% of the time (basically, 30%).
* Int will increase 10.12% of the time (basically, 10%).
* Pie will increase 9.88% of the time (basically, 10%).
* Dex will increase 9.84% of the time (basically, 10%).
* Vit will increase 44.68% of the time (basically, 45%).

From preliminary data, it seems like this is true of the other classes as well; for the priest, it looks like:

* Str will always increase at levels 2, 7, and 12, and 9.88% (basically, 10%) at other levels, up to 20.
* Int will always increase at levels 5, 10, and 15, and 10.10% (basically, 10%) at other levels, up to 20.
* Pie will always increase at levels 3, 8, and 13, and 29.85% (basically, 30%) at other levels, up to 20.
* Dex will always increase at levels 6 and 11, and 9.53% (basically, 10%) at other levels, up to 20.
* Vit will always increase at levels 4, 9, and 14, and 46.42% (basically, 45%) at other levels, up to 20.

For the priest, I have 304 samples of Monk level-ups (from level 1 to 15), 500 samples of Bishop level-ups, and 364 samples of Prophet level-ups. I don't see a difference in the chance of stat increases between them, nor in the HP gains. However, the encumbrance gain for Monk is 2*str, for Bishop is 2*str - 1, and for Prophet is 2*str - 2. Thus, as far as I can tell, it's best to aim for Monk.

For encumbrance, the order of specializations in the code is this:

Berserk, Warrior, Guard, Champion, Guardian, Protector, Monk, Bishop, Prophet, Conjurer, Sorcerer, Enchanter

Extrapolating from current data, it seems like the encumbrance for Berserk is 2*str + 6, for Warrior is 2*str + 5, etc. down the line until you get to 2*str - 5 for Enchanter. There's a minimum of a 9 encumbrance gain. So far, the specialization doesn't seem to affect anything else (stat gains, HP gains, etc.). This means that when generating your party, you should go for Berserk, Champion, Monk, and Conjurer. Of course, which one you get is random (it doesn't depend on the questions), so there's only a 1 in 3^4=81 chance of getting this. The difference between the best and worst specializations in terms of encumbrance is 28 at level 15, since it's a difference of 2 per level.

As a side note, since I'm collecting this data by modifying a save game, it's always possible that this stuff is encoded somewhere in the save game and it'll be different for each game, although I doubt this. At any rate, let me know if you observe something different, such as not getting a guaranteed stat increase at a level or different max encumbrance increases than what I've listed here.

Do you think it is possible that Vitality is used to reduce physical damage taken or effects the chance to avoid certain effects like poison?

Well, currently, anything is possible. In some games, dexterity is used to reduce your chance of getting hit (such as AD&D, via AC), while others, it's used to directly decrease the damage you take by a percentage (such as Yendorian and online MUDs). It's possible that vitality has a similar function in this game. I certainly hope it does something important. Right now though it's kind of just speculation, but if vitality doesn't affect your max HP, then I would expect it to affect something in combat.

Your dissection of the game is pretty impressive. Once you're done, I'll be happy to link your posts to Martin Buis (unless he's lurking this thread already - you never know!). Who knows, he might be interested in this, or maybe even have some comments.

Thanks, I like digging into games and looking at how they work. I tend to favor older games (previously dug into Space Rogue, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Master of Orion, and others) since they're more accessible than the newer games, and also because I think older games have better gameplay while newer games just try to cover up the gameplay with fancy graphics.

I don't know if I'll ever be "done" though, more like just focusing more and more deeply on what looks to be accessible. For example, I don't know if I'll ever figure out the actual combat equations, since I'd have to collect a lot of data to work them out.

Admittedly I don't know what Martin Buis's level of interest would be for this game nowadays. Some game creators don't like people digging into their files, while others are open to it for nostalgic reasons. Certainly I expect he knows the actual formulas (or knows how to get them, or has the source code), but it's all a matter of whether or not he'd be willing to release it or discuss it.

Also, I think in this game the creators were going for something different than most RPGs. Usually by making the formulas explicit, number-crunching is more straightforward but then players may end up focusing on the numbers while game creators are trying to tell a story. (I see games as simply interactive stories, like movies if you will except that you are engaged in order to advance the plot.) In other words players start focusing on whether a long sword +3 or a broadsword +2 is better statistically, rather than how the item fits into the story or which item their character would more realistically use.

It seems to me like in this game, the creators were making the numbers "under the hood" and not something to focus on, and hence this would be part of why in the late game, it comes down to whether or not the player is able to solve the puzzles, rather than (for example) whether or not the player "built" the characters correctly etc. The numbers more or less only help in the early- and mid-game while the player is stills struggling to "make it". Now certainly knowing the numbers is something that number-crunchers like me go for, but I can understand if the game creators preferred that players focused instead on playing the game, and thus don't encourage wading into the numbers.

 

[vanshilar]

So here's a summary of the results from character leveling testing.

* The stats are rolled when you level up while entering the sanctuary. So you can load-and-save this. However, the game is automatically saved on entering the sanctuary, so if you want to load-and-save, you'd have to load from a backup from before going into the sanctuary, and copying over. Up to you if it's worth it or not.

* Whether or not a stat (Str, Int, Pie, Dex, Vit) increases depends on the level and the class. It can increase to a max of 20. The probability of a stat increasing is:

Class    Str Int Pie Dex Vit  Guaranteed
Fighter  30% 10% 10% 10% 45%  Str at 4, 9, 14; Int at 2, 7, 12; Pie at 5, 10, 15; Dex at 3, 8, 13; Vit at 6, 11
Paladin  30% 10% 10% 10% 45%  Str at 3, 8, 13; Int at 6, 11; Pie at 4, 9, 14; Dex at 2, 7, 12; Vit at 5, 10, 15
Priest   10% 10% 30% 10% 45%  Str at 2, 7, 12; Int at 5, 10, 15; Pie at 3, 8, 13; Dex at 6, 11; Vit at 4, 9, 14
Magician 10% 30% 10% 10% 45%  Str at 6, 11; Int at 4, 9, 14; Pie at 2, 7, 12; Dex at 5, 10, 15; Vit at 3, 8, 13

In table form, the above is:

Fighter:

Lvl Str Int Pie Dex Vit
 2  0.3 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
 3  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
 4  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
 5  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
 6  0.3 0.1 0.1 0.1 1.0
 7  0.3 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
 8  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
 9  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
10  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
11  0.3 0.1 0.1 0.1 1.0
12  0.3 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
13  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
14  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
15  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
Sum 6.3 4.1 4.1 4.1 7.4

Paladin:

Lvl Str Int Pie Dex Vit
 2  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
 3  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
 4  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
 5  0.3 0.1 0.1 0.1 1.0
 6  0.3 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
 7  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
 8  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
 9  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
10  0.3 0.1 0.1 0.1 1.0
11  0.3 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
12  0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0 0.45
13  1.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.45
14  0.3 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
15  0.3 0.1 0.1 0.1 1.0
Sum 6.3 3.2 4.1 4.1 7.95

Priest:

Lvl Str Int Pie Dex Vit
 2  1.0 0.1 0.3 0.1 0.45
 3  0.1 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
 4  0.1 0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0
 5  0.1 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.45
 6  0.1 0.1 0.3 1.0 0.45
 7  1.0 0.1 0.3 0.1 0.45
 8  0.1 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
 9  0.1 0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0
10  0.1 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.45
11  0.1 0.1 0.3 1.0 0.45
12  1.0 0.1 0.3 0.1 0.45
13  0.1 0.1 1.0 0.1 0.45
14  0.1 0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0
15  0.1 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.45
Sum 4.1 4.1 6.3 3.2 7.95

Magician:

Lvl Str Int Pie Dex Vit
 2  0.1 0.3 1.0 0.1 0.45
 3  0.1 0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0
 4  0.1 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
 5  0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0 0.45
 6  1.0 0.3 0.1 0.1 0.45
 7  0.1 0.3 1.0 0.1 0.45
 8  0.1 0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0
 9  0.1 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
10  0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0 0.45
11  1.0 0.3 0.1 0.1 0.45
12  0.1 0.3 1.0 0.1 0.45
13  0.1 0.3 0.1 0.1 1.0
14  0.1 1.0 0.1 0.1 0.45
15  0.1 0.3 0.1 1.0 0.45
Sum 3.2 6.3 4.1 4.1 7.95

From this, it's easy to calculate the distribution of how many stat increases you'll get throughout the 14 level-ups from level 1 to level 15:

Gain FiStr  FiInt  FiPie  FiDex  FiVit  PaStr  PaInt  PaPie  PaDex  PaVit  PrStr  PrInt  PrPie  PrDex  PrVit  MaStr  MaInt  MaPie  MaDex  MaVit
 +2  00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.08% 00.00% 28.24% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 28.24% 00.00% 28.24% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00%
 +3  01.98% 31.38% 31.38% 31.38% 00.75% 01.98% 37.66% 31.38% 31.38% 00.14% 31.38% 31.38% 01.98% 37.66% 00.14% 37.66% 01.98% 31.38% 31.38% 00.14%
 +4  09.32% 38.35% 38.35% 38.35% 03.39% 09.32% 23.01% 38.35% 38.35% 01.25% 38.35% 38.35% 09.32% 23.01% 01.25% 23.01% 09.32% 38.35% 38.35% 01.25%
 +5  19.98% 21.31% 21.31% 21.31% 09.23% 19.98% 08.52% 21.31% 21.31% 05.13% 21.31% 21.31% 19.98% 08.52% 05.13% 08.52% 19.98% 21.31% 21.31% 05.13%
 +6  25.68% 07.10% 07.10% 07.10% 17.00% 25.68% 02.13% 07.10% 07.10% 12.59% 07.10% 07.10% 25.68% 02.13% 12.59% 02.13% 25.68% 07.10% 07.10% 12.59%
 +7  22.01% 01.58% 01.58% 01.58% 22.25% 22.01% 00.38% 01.58% 01.58% 20.60% 01.58% 01.58% 22.01% 00.38% 20.60% 00.38% 22.01% 01.58% 01.58% 20.60%
 +8  13.21% 00.25% 00.25% 00.25% 21.24% 13.21% 00.05% 00.25% 00.25% 23.60% 00.25% 00.25% 13.21% 00.05% 23.60% 00.05% 13.21% 00.25% 00.25% 23.60%
 +9  05.66% 00.03% 00.03% 00.03% 14.89% 05.66% 00.00% 00.03% 00.03% 19.31% 00.03% 00.03% 05.66% 00.00% 19.31% 00.00% 05.66% 00.03% 00.03% 19.31%
+10  01.73% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 07.62% 01.73% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 11.28% 00.00% 00.00% 01.73% 00.00% 11.28% 00.00% 01.73% 00.00% 00.00% 11.28%
+11  00.37% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 02.77% 00.37% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 04.62% 00.00% 00.00% 00.37% 00.00% 04.62% 00.00% 00.37% 00.00% 00.00% 04.62%
+12  00.05% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.68% 00.05% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 01.26% 00.00% 00.00% 00.05% 00.00% 01.26% 00.00% 00.05% 00.00% 00.00% 01.26%
+13  00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.10% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.21% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.21% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.21%
+14  00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.01% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.02% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.02% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.02%

For example, since the maximum stat from level-ups is 20, then if you start out with 14 in your primary stat (Str for Fighters and Paladins, Pie for Priests, and Int for Magicians), then your probability of having 20 in that stat at level 15 is 68.73%.

* Your HP gains do not depend on vitality, and seem to depend purely on the level and the class. The formula seems to be:

Lvl  Fi   Pa   Pr   Ma
 2   8d3  8d3  8d2  6d2
 3   8d5  8d5  8d3  6d3
 4   8d7  8d7  8d4  6d4
 5   8d9  8d9  8d5  6d5
 6  8d11 8d11  8d6  6d6
 7  8d13 8d13  8d7  6d6
 8  8d15 8d15  8d8  6d6
 9  8d14 8d14 6d11  6d6
10  8d15 8d15 6d12  6d7
11  8d16 8d16 6d13  6d7
12  8d17 8d17 6d14  6d7
13  8d18 8d18 6d15  6d8
14  8d19 8d19 6d16  6d8
15  8d20 8d20 6d17  6d8

The average HP gains are therefore:

Lvl  Fi  Pa  Pr  Ma
 2   16  16  12   9
 3   24  24  16  12
 4   32  32  20  15
 5   40  40  24  18
 6   48  48  28  21
 7   56  56  32  21
 8   64  64  36  21
 9   60  60  36  21
10   64  64  39  24
11   68  68  42  24
12   72  72  45  24
13   76  76  48  27
14   80  80  51  27
15   84  84  54  27
Sum 784 784 483 291

* How much your encumbrance increases depends on your sub-class and your post-level-up Str. In the game, the sub-classes are ordered as:

Berserk, Warrior, Guard, Champion, Guardian, Protector, Monk, Bishop, Prophet, Conjurer, Sorcerer, Enchanter

The increase to encumbrance is 2*Str + 6 for Berserk, 2*Str + 5 for Warrior, etc., down to 2*Str - 5 for Enchanter. The increase has a minimum of 9. Thus, the encumbrance increase based on post-level-up Str is:

Str  Be   Wa   Gu   Ch   Gu   Pr   Mo   Bi   Pr   Co   So   En
 5   16   15   14   13   12   11   10    9    9    9    9    9
 6   18   17   16   15   14   13   12   11   10    9    9    9
 7   20   19   18   17   16   15   14   13   12   11   10    9
 8   22   21   20   19   18   17   16   15   14   13   12   11
 9   24   23   22   21   20   19   18   17   16   15   14   13
10   26   25   24   23   22   21   20   19   18   17   16   15
11   28   27   26   25   24   23   22   21   20   19   18   17
12   30   29   28   27   26   25   24   23   22   21   20   19
13   32   31   30   29   28   27   26   25   24   23   22   21
14   34   33   32   31   30   29   28   27   26   25   24   23
15   36   35   34   33   32   31   30   29   28   27   26   25
16   38   37   36   35   34   33   32   31   30   29   28   27
17   40   39   38   37   36   35   34   33   32   31   30   29
18   42   41   40   39   38   37   36   35   34   33   32   31
19   44   43   42   41   40   39   38   37   36   35   34   33
20   46   45   44   43   42   41   40   39   38   37   36   35

Each point of Str gives 28 additional encumbrance throughout the 14 level-ups. Each sub-class gives 14 additional encumbrance throughout the 14 level-ups. So you can think of each sub-class rank as being worth half a point of Str in terms of encumbrance. So far, the only known effect of the sub-class is on encumbrance.


The above is based on data, so it includes some extrapolation and guesswork on my part. The following is a summary of the data. The data was gathered via script by repeatedly loading a modified save game so that a character at level 1 with 99 million experience repeatedly entered a sanctuary until level 15. At each level the character screen was captured, and subsequently the numbers were read via script and then analyzed via Excel. Each progression (from level 1 to 15 for a character) was a sample, consisting of 15 screenshots (level 1 to level 15). There were two types; ones where the character stats all started at 5 at level 1, and ones where the character stats all started at 20 at level 1. The numbers of samples so far are:

Class    Subclass  Stat5 Stat20
Fighter  Berserk           350
Fighter  Warrior    5150   350
Fighter  Guard             400
Paladin  Champion          320
Paladin  Guardian          804
Paladin  Protector   701   320
Priest   Monk        304   222
Priest   Bishop      500   483
Priest   Prophet     364   300
Magician Conjurer    500
Magician Sorcerer    500
Magician Enchanter   700

So yes, that represents about 184k screenshots' worth of data.

For the stats, subtracting the guaranteed gains, the observed probability of gains versus my rounding was:

Fighter:

Stat   Str    Int    Pie    Dex    Vit
Data 30.25% 10.12%  9.88%  9.84% 44.68%
Guess  30%    10%    10%    10%    45%
Samples: 5150

Paladin:

Stat   Str    Int    Pie    Dex    Vit
Data 30.40%  9.85% 10.09%  9.48% 45.68%
Guess  30%    10%    10%    10%    45%
Samples: 701

Priest:

Stat   Str    Int    Pie    Dex    Vit
Data  9.88% 10.10% 29.85%  9.53% 46.42%
Guess  10%    10%    30%    10%    45%
Samples: 1168

Magician:

Stat   Str    Int    Pie    Dex    Vit
Data 10.03% 29.70% 10.28% 10.28% 44.15%
Guess  10%    30%    10%    10%    45%
Samples: 1700

Note that if there were 2 guaranteed gains, then there were 12 random level-ups, while if there were 3 guaranteed gains, then there were 11 random level-ups.

For HP gain per level, the data and number of samples, compared to my dice guesswork, was:

Fighter:

Average
Lvl Ber20  War5 War20 Gua20 Dice Dice
 2  15.87 15.98 15.99 16.05  8d3  16
 3  23.81 24.00 24.22 23.94  8d5  24
 4  31.69 32.09 31.69 32.21  8d7  32
 5  39.95 40.01 39.92 39.81  8d9  40
 6  47.10 48.08 48.08 47.10 8d11  48
 7  56.00 56.05 55.45 56.11 8d13  56
 8  63.82 63.74 64.65 65.29 8d15  64
 9  58.65 59.90 59.67 61.19 8d14  60
10  63.41 64.17 64.25 63.67 8d15  64
11  67.23 67.95 68.94 67.67 8d16  68
12  70.37 72.26 72.94 73.33 8d17  72
13  75.60 75.87 76.88 76.84 8d18  76
14  79.34 80.11 80.86 80.17 8d19  80
15  83.80 84.01 84.19 84.13 8d20  84
#Sam  350  5150   350   400

Standard deviation
Lvl Ber20  War5 War20 Gua20 Dice   Dice
 2  02.45 02.30 02.35 02.26  8d3  02.31
 3  04.19 04.01 04.04 03.92  8d5  04.00
 4  05.76 05.70 06.11 05.71  8d7  05.66
 5  06.82 07.24 07.33 07.02  8d9  07.30
 6  09.10 08.98 09.06 08.76 8d11  08.94
 7  10.76 10.60 10.95 10.12 8d13  10.58
 8  12.11 12.28 11.88 12.41 8d15  12.22
 9  12.03 11.31 12.35 11.98 8d14  11.40
10  12.80 12.24 12.80 12.07 8d15  12.22
11  12.56 12.96 12.65 12.97 8d16  13.04
12  14.48 13.63 13.22 13.10 8d17  13.86
13  13.98 14.77 15.62 13.53 8d18  14.67
14  15.78 15.39 15.48 15.26 8d19  15.49
15  16.43 16.38 15.08 16.02 8d20  16.31
#Sam  350  5150   350   400

Paladin:

Average
Lvl Cha20 Gua20  Pro5 Pro20 Dice Dice
 2  15.99 15.96 16.05 15.90  8d3  16
 3  23.95 24.16 24.02 24.11  8d5  24
 4  31.65 32.02 32.35 32.41  8d7  32
 5  39.98 40.01 40.11 40.10  8d9  40
 6  47.84 47.49 47.81 47.94 8d11  48
 7  55.19 56.14 56.04 55.85 8d13  56
 8  64.05 63.75 64.24 64.25 8d15  64
 9  60.45 59.19 59.82 59.81 8d14  60
10  64.09 64.35 64.90 64.44 8d15  64
11  67.57 67.92 67.72 67.73 8d16  68
12  71.62 72.38 72.33 70.91 8d17  72
13  74.31 76.52 75.92 77.28 8d18  76
14  79.75 79.77 80.41 81.19 8d19  80
15  83.38 84.15 82.87 82.08 8d20  84
#Sam  320   804   701   320

Standard deviation
Lvl Cha20 Gua20  Pro5 Pro20 Dice   Dice
 2  02.52 02.25 02.26 02.23  8d3  02.31
 3  04.09 03.91 03.99 04.02  8d5  04.00
 4  05.68 05.79 05.48 05.42  8d7  05.66
 5  07.42 06.98 07.32 07.09  8d9  07.30
 6  09.03 09.05 09.03 08.74 8d11  08.94
 7  11.02 10.59 10.63 10.22 8d13  10.58
 8  13.34 12.21 11.97 13.20 8d15  12.22
 9  12.22 11.89 11.01 11.32 8d14  11.40
10  11.65 11.97 12.53 12.02 8d15  12.22
11  13.29 13.06 12.56 12.87 8d16  13.04
12  13.76 13.76 13.79 14.42 8d17  13.86
13  14.43 14.94 13.99 15.06 8d18  14.67
14  15.44 15.41 15.69 15.77 8d19  15.49
15  15.17 16.18 17.36 15.91 8d20  16.31
#Sam  320   804   701   320

Priest:

Average
Lvl  Mon5 Mon20  Bis5 Bis20  Pro5 Pro20 Dice Dice
 2  12.25 11.98 11.97 12.04 11.96 12.04  8d2  12
 3  15.96 15.60 15.95 16.04 16.00 15.95  8d3  16
 4  19.92 20.06 20.00 19.88 20.09 20.22  8d4  20
 5  24.11 23.63 23.93 24.10 24.01 24.08  8d5  24
 6  28.06 27.65 27.76 27.80 27.84 27.95  8d6  28
 7  31.89 31.81 32.12 31.77 32.28 31.91  8d7  32
 8  36.45 36.56 35.99 35.98 35.43 35.61  8d8  36
 9  35.91 35.69 35.90 36.23 36.25 35.41 6d11  36
10  38.97 38.40 39.18 38.38 39.59 38.89 6d12  39
11  41.64 41.91 42.01 42.43 42.39 41.68 6d13  42
12  45.46 44.59 44.66 45.47 45.12 44.81 6d14  45
13  47.94 46.39 48.28 47.82 48.47 48.28 6d15  48
14  51.45 50.46 50.82 51.63 50.71 51.12 6d16  51
15  54.59 54.99 53.96 54.04 54.85 53.66 6d17  54
#Sam  304   222   500   483   364   300

Standard deviation
Lvl  Mon5 Mon20  Bis5 Bis20  Pro5 Pro20 Dice   Dice
 2  01.60 01.55 01.50 01.60 01.51 01.51  8d2  01.41
 3  02.27 02.29 02.38 02.23 02.38 02.34  8d3  02.31
 4  03.28 03.16 03.26 03.25 03.32 03.34  8d4  03.16
 5  03.75 03.89 04.04 04.21 03.96 03.85  8d5  04.00
 6  05.01 04.53 04.87 05.09 04.53 04.87  8d6  04.83
 7  05.59 05.84 05.96 05.86 05.85 05.61  8d7  05.66
 8  06.32 06.81 06.73 06.64 06.71 06.50  8d8  06.48
 9  07.76 07.38 07.59 07.83 07.84 07.42 6d11  07.75
10  08.39 08.73 08.57 08.27 08.25 07.85 6d12  08.46
11  08.93 09.08 09.24 09.18 09.45 09.85 6d13  09.17
12  08.94 09.98 09.80 09.77 10.13 09.08 6d14  09.87
13  10.89 10.47 10.34 10.64 10.32 10.40 6d15  10.58
14  11.33 11.09 11.01 11.59 11.22 11.03 6d16  11.29
15  12.33 11.86 12.24 12.21 11.64 11.29 6d17  12.00
#Sam  304   222   500   483   364   300

Magician:

Average
Lvl  Con5  Sor5  Enc5 Dice Dice
 2  09.04 09.01 08.94  6d2   9
 3  12.13 12.03 11.99  6d3  12
 4  14.92 14.79 15.25  6d4  15
 5  17.98 18.24 18.09  6d5  18
 6  20.89 20.92 20.88  6d6  21
 7  20.92 20.89 21.05  6d6  21
 8  21.22 21.05 21.05  6d6  21
 9  20.72 20.67 21.22  6d6  21
10  24.04 23.79 24.39  6d7  24
11  24.22 23.56 23.87  6d7  24
12  23.90 23.82 24.05  6d7  24
13  27.14 26.78 26.55  6d8  27
14  27.06 27.19 27.42  6d8  27
15  26.96 27.15 26.65  6d8  27
#Sam  500   500   700

Standard Deviation
Lvl  Con5  Sor5  Enc5 Dice   Dice
 2  01.27 01.26 01.26  6d2  01.22
 3  01.95 02.02 01.94  6d3  02.00
 4  02.79 02.68 02.65  6d4  02.74
 5  03.66 03.37 03.50  6d5  03.46
 6  04.05 04.16 04.06  6d6  04.18
 7  04.24 04.35 04.31  6d6  04.18
 8  03.96 04.14 04.12  6d6  04.18
 9  04.35 04.21 04.38  6d6  04.18
10  05.05 05.06 04.83  6d7  04.90
11  04.98 04.85 04.87  6d7  04.90
12  04.87 04.86 04.93  6d7  04.90
13  05.73 05.30 05.55  6d8  05.61
14  05.68 05.71 05.47  6d8  05.61
15  05.54 05.37 05.51  6d8  05.61
#Sam  500   500   700

Anyone is welcome to see if they can find dice that better matches the observed statistics.

For encumbrance, compared with the completed table posted above, the values which I've actually observed from the data are:

Str  Be   Wa   Gu   Ch   Gu   Pr   Mo   Bi   Pr   Co   So   En
 5        15                  11                   9    9    9
 6        17                  13   12   11   10    9    9    9
 7        19                  15   14   13   12   11   10    9
 8        21                  17   16   15   14   13   12   11
 9        23                  19   18   17   16   15   14   13
10        25                  21   20   19   18   17   16   15
11        27                  23   22   21   20   19   18   17
12        29                  25   24   23   22   21   20   19
13        31                  27        25   24  
14        33                  29        27   
15        35                  31 
16        37                  33  
17        39                  35 
18                                              
19                                              
20   46   45   44   43   42   41   40   39   38

This post obviously involved a lot of numbers and copy-pasting, so if anything looks out of place or if you observed anything that doesn't match the data, please let me know.

 

[Barnacle]

I spent many, many hours playing this game as a kid. Took me about 2 years but it was probably on of the greatest feelings I had ever had when I finally beat it...

It made such an impression that I will still occasionally go back and play it through when feeling nostalgic.

I always wanted to spend some time and look into the details of the game engine but never got around to it. vanshilar, thanks for providing so much great info!

Also, Crooked Bee, your LP was awesome, but I am especially impressed that you were able to track down and interview the developers! Amazing community you all have here!

 

[TigerKnee]

Necromancy!

So, I'm guessing data searching guy probably isn't going to come back and work some more on this game.

Well, I'm really not that computer literate, but I've learned how to Hex Edit recently and did some testing with stats by editing AppleWin Save States. Take these results with a grain of salt as I'm not entirely sure if loading up edited save states has any negative effects.

Methodology: Battle with 3 Samurais.
Change stats from 1 to 20 (maximum in-game stat cap) and finally to some ridiculously upper end and technically impossible stat (like 64) and see what happens.

Findings:
Strength affects damage from attacking in a really obvious matter. A fighter with 1 strength usually deals single digit damage to a Samurai, whereas one with very high strength one-shots them consistently.

Dex affects "Parry" rate - testing a Fighter with 64 Dex against the Samurais, he was literally invincible from Parrying every single attack attempt on him, whereas one with 1 Dex constantly got hit.

Vitality affects damage taken - my 1 Vit fighter took ~ 50 damage from an attack, while a 64 Vit fighter took single digit damage.

Neither Strength nor Dex appears to affect hit rate - a 1 Str, 1 Dex Fighter seem to land attacks consistently.

Right, these are rather obvious statements outside of maybe hit rates. Now here is the big shocker.

Intelligence does not appear to affect Spell damage at all. The spells tested were Amras, Kunlazar, Sehk and Shum/Shummur (healing spell). Regardless of whether the Intelligence of the Magician was set at 1, 20 or 80 (I extra bumped it hoping the difference would be obvious), they all seem to deal the same amount of damage!

I'm at a loss as to what this stat does then. Alternatively, I have tried regeneration rate but no dice - you don't seem to regenerate any faster regardless of your INT score.

The last theory is that perhaps INT has a more noticeable effect on support spells, such as the ones that translate scripts on the wall. That might be a bit harder to test though.

Assuming I'm not missing something, that actually kind of means that you actually want a high Dex/Vit Magician on character creation and can dump INT as a stat.

I haven't done any Piety testing because I'm a lazy buttwipe.

Well, hope this helps in case anyone decided to play this game again.

 

[TigerKnee]

Wow wow wow I lucked into some findings

First off - Dexterity has an effect on weapon damage too. I noticed this when I edited my Priest to have high Dex and low other stats (1) so I can test things without having my ass kicked by the enemy and he was still somehow taking off 3/4 of the enemy's health per hit (and Samurais are end-game enemies). Less effective than Strength at purely raising damage, it seems, which is good because otherwise it would be pretty screwed up.

And for the lucky find - Intelligence ALSO affects weapon damage - which again, I discovered when I decided to use my 128 INT Magician to swing at things and she proceeded to one-shot enemies too. It's not a Magician only thing though, because I edited my Fighter to have 1 STR, 128 INT and he also began to one-shot enemies. I should test the Priest and Paladin too but I think it's safe to say that this affects all classes.

Which brings me to something about combat damage - I'm starting to think "miss" is actually just the game's fancy way of saying "you didn't roll high enough on damage to penetrate the enemy's defense" and that there isn't actually a "to-hit" roll that we think of in RPG combat system. Just a theory, but I think this is the case.

Now, on to Piety... well, this is probably the real dump stat, because unlike the other stats, it doesn't seem to have a combat damage effect at all (Vit doesn't either, but Vit handles defense so)? Or hmmm, maybe it handles Magic defense but I haven't ran into any enemy casters to test yet. The manual says it also helps defend against undead which is also something I haven't bothered to test but I don't believe you run into enough of those to care.

What I can say though is that just like INT for Magicians, Piety appears to have absolutely no effect on my Prayers, whether damage or success rates.

So, what the heck does affect spell damage? Is it just "pre-set" like Wizardry where Spell X always has a set range of 2-8 damage and etc? Maybe...

Out of desperation, I tried directly changing my Priest's level to see if it affects anything. Well, certainly not my Prayers... they don't seem to have changed.

I can say though that Priest level seems to be the main factor in Summoning Elementals - an edited level of 38 (technically impossible to achieve in the actual game) almost always succeeded at summoning Fire Elementals, while changing the level back to 1 caused the Priest to constantly fail in doing so.

So... what's going on? Is this one of those things where unlike other stats, perhaps anything related to spells are calculated on level up and editing it during battles (or before battles) does absolutely nothing? Or did the creators really coded in two stats, wrote that they were useful for spellcasting in the manual and then somehow forgot about actually coding in effects for them?

Theories: These stats affects maximum spell points, which I don't think is possible to see?
Theory 2: Spell power and success rate is based solely on how many rings of the specific school that you have. Unfortunately, I don't really have any idea how I would edit the levels of my rings up and down so this is harder to test...

The manual says that "Int/Piety affects progression through spell schools"... and we do apparently have a dump of the required EXP needed for each level to get the rings. MAYBE Int and Piety reduces the amount of EXP needed to achieve each individual ring level? Unfortunately I don't have a save state handy for that, so it's something I'll have to test much later.

 

[octavius]

I would assume Piety affects chances of prayers being successful?

 

[TigerKnee]

I would assume Piety affects chances of prayers being successful?

There would be the standard assumption, but as far as I can tell, it really doesn't have any effect on that.

 

[Monstrous Bat]

Maybe Piety affects the regenerating rates of mana?

 

[TigerKnee]

Well, still kind of at a loss as to what Intelligence does for Spellcasting.

Theories ruled out
1) Intelligence and Piety don't seem to affect when you get the next tier of rings - the EXP charts posted seem dead set.
2) It doesn't seem to increase Psychic/Piety points on level up either.

I figured out where the Rings values for the characters is stored in the save state file... sort of.

It's stored in this strange manner where everything is in these particular two values and based off adding all the values together. Well, I feel like I read about it somewhere before but I can't remember where it's called

Ufthu = 1
Drutho = 8
Golthur = 64
Fshofth = ??? (haven't figured it out yet)

So if you wanted Ufthu level 3, Drutho level 2 and Golthur level 1, you would do

1 x 3 + 8 x 2 + 64 = 83

which in Hexadecimal would be 53

What throws me off is when the value gets bigger than FF and I have to use the 2nd field, which always seems to screw things up for me. Must be an Endian storing thing.

I assume the Magician Rings work the same way.

(Incidentally, every time you receive a new ring, it seems to raise your maximum points by around 4, if you're going to cheat/edit your rings by hand, you got to account for this because the game doesn't calculate it automatically)

From some experimenting with raising my rings on a early game character to Crystal ASAP, it seems like how many rings of the specific god you possess are the major factor in Prayer success but don't seem to really affect power/damage that much as far as Ralkor is concerned.

Now I'm starting to believe there really isn't any spell damage scaling at all. Too bad you'll never get to see how much spell damage does unlike physical attacks and the health bar method is apparently unstable.

 

[Keldryn]

I misread a thread title again, I thought this game was Dark Heart of ...

I've never played this game. I remember reading good things about it back in the day, but somehow never managed to get a copy of it. I think I'll have to give it a try one of these days.

 

[TigerKnee]

So here's a question, but has anyone ever found uses for a lot of the misc items in the game like Bones, Skulls, Chalk, Bandages and etc?

I thought it would be clever if throwing Bones at dog enemies distracted them or something, but no luck.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I feel like an idiot, but how do you save in this game. I already pushed the esc key and saved, but everytime I hit continue it starts me with a new party?

 

[Jack Dandy]

You need to reach the rooms with the priests in them IIRC. The ones with the password. You can save properly there.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

You need to reach the rooms with the priests in them IIRC. The ones with the password. You can save properly there.

Do I need to know the password?

 

[Jack Dandy]

Ah no. I think the passwords are only used for the teleporters near each of these rooms.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Read the manual.

 

[TigerKnee]

For the record, the game auto-saves whenever you enter a "Sanctuary", the rooms where you need a special phrase from the copy protection codewheel to enter and which houses a teleporter each.

There's also an option to "Back up" your save game in the sancturary with the ESC key, which you should really do because meh perma-death.

 

[Fowyr]

There's also an option to "Back up" your save game in the sancturary with the ESC key, which you should really do because meh perma-death.

Worse, it's perma-weakening. Characters could be ressurected, but their corpses decompose while you try to run to clerics and it's less HP.
Basically, sacramental -1 Con.

 

[Leitz]

Can somebody give me a little spoiler free hint for the diamond puzzle, I tried for five days now. I can't find any of the twelve words and I'm wondering now if I'm even supposed to find 'words'. I'm not a native english speaker, maybe that's why I can't make any sense from the clue-sentences. Language puzzles are always a lot harder in a foreign language, your brain just doesn't compute.

 

[Fowyr]

Can somebody give me a little spoiler free hint for the diamond puzzle, I tried for five days now. I can't find any of the twelve words and I'm wondering now if I'm even supposed to find 'words'. I'm not a native english speaker, maybe that's why I can't make any sense from the clue-sentences. Language puzzles are always a lot harder in a foreign language, your brain just doesn't compute.

Are you talking about crosword puzzle (third with a Dragon)?
ORDER SYMBOLS AS WORDS - THOSE EQUAL IN NUMBER SHALL NOT BE USED.
WHERE DIAMONDS OUTNUMBER SQUARES USE TOP SYMBOL - CONVERSE USE LOWER.

You "find" words by solving crossword puzzle.

 

[Leitz]

Can somebody give me a little spoiler free hint for the diamond puzzle, I tried for five days now. I can't find any of the twelve words and I'm wondering now if I'm even supposed to find 'words'. I'm not a native english speaker, maybe that's why I can't make any sense from the clue-sentences. Language puzzles are always a lot harder in a foreign language, your brain just doesn't compute.

Are you talking about crosword puzzle (third with a Dragon)?
ORDER SYMBOLS AS WORDS - THOSE EQUAL IN NUMBER SHALL NOT BE USED.
WHERE DIAMONDS OUTNUMBER SQUARES USE TOP SYMBOL - CONVERSE USE LOWER.

You "find" words by solving crossword puzzle.

Thanks a lot, but fuck me I read these clues in a totally different way. I didn't interpret the word 'symbol' the right way. I was looking for diamond shaped objects and such 'symbols'. I just did some little research and realized that symbol is a common term in crossword puzzles...but only on the english ones. I guess I could've seen it on the map but a crossword puzzle, that's far out.

 

[Fowyr]

I had problem with this puzzle as well, if it makes you feel better. Almost brute-forced my way, if memory serves me well. As I heard, this code slightly differs from playthrough to playthrough, but fuck if I know how.