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KickStarter Darkest Dungeon AKA the Celerity Attention Whore Thread

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,790
Location
Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Yeah I agree Zombra, I am playing this in between Dragons Dogma in short bursts of 45 minutes, maybe 2 small dungeons or a single bigger one and so far it is going just fine
Thought about turning on the derpy options just to try them out but I remebered beign so turned off by them after they were implemented that I went off the Celerity Dark Side so I rather not...
About the low level dungeons I think you are right that they dissapear after awhile so you would have to take newbie chars into higher level dungeon which stress them out fierce, the best option is to try to space things out by spreading everybody out in the begining and making sure nobody hits level 3 or they will refuse to do lower level dungeons. Only go to level 3 when you know which party will go face the boss of an area; if they fail at least you have some wiggle room to train a few more chars with tour higher level heroes
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Did you try pairing plague doctors with occultists Pope Amole?

I tried everything reasonable (and most of unreasonable stuff too) in this game. It's fine, but plagues work better in duos. They shine the best when the corpses are on, though - they're actually buffed by the corpses being present in the game. And it's just that occultist are mostly aggressive tempo-wise and plagues have a slower, rather controllish nature. The easiest example of this is a 2x plague, 2x crusader party - doesn't kill enemies fast but very reliable.

About the low level dungeons I think you are right that they dissapear after awhile

They disappear only if you have no low-level recruits. If you have a squad of newbies, you will have some missions available for them (though not as much as in the beginning of the game). It seems to depend on your overall roster - the less newbies you have, the less easy missions you get.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
I'm still at the start but have only had 1 or 2 deaths in several hours. Can fleeing ever fail? I just walk away if I have more than one guy at Death's Door.

Oh, and one other question: is there any control over what kind of missions are available?

It could fail during EA, would assume that this is still the case.
As Pope Amole said, there should be low-level missions available for your low-level chars even later in the game.
 
Self-Ejected

Ludo Lense

Self-Ejected
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
936
I was next to someone has he finished the game. The ending makes no sense.

How did your ancestor became the herald if he sent you the letter? Also why does he say "do you remember our manor" in the beginning when it is heavily implied it has been centuries.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
How did your ancestor became the herald if he sent you the letter? Also why does he say "do you remember our manor" in the beginning when it is heavily implied it has been centuries.

From what I understood from the Intro and the memories you unlock, the history and dark secret of the manor dates back hundreds of years. The guy who wrote the letter started experimenting with dark powers and merely unlocked the evil beneath the manor. Then he tasked you with setting things right and committed suicide. Haven't finished the game, though.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Why am I not surprised they released the game in such a buggy state it doesn't recognize DoT kills at all and just locks? One more reason it's the same damage spam fest.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Why am I not surprised they released the game in such a buggy state it doesn't recognize DoT kills at all and just locks? One more reason it's the same damage spam fest.
What do you mean by that? I've done quite a few kills with DoT abilities and never had the game lock/crash/bug out once.
Besides, I hope you are using the non-steamworks version, 1337 hours is too 1337 a number to waste on such a thing as further fueling your DD-OCD playing a game you hate. :M
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Pope Amole II complained that when he killed the final boss with a DoT it just locked instead of showing the ending stuff. It's not the only time I've heard of that bug, though I haven't seen it myself because I don't use useless abilities. Also, I can use offline mode for shit like "Is Derpest still a damage spam fest? Let's send in standard Hellion spam and find out!" I have no interest in the actual game, as damage spam is boring, and the game can no longer become a game through modding so I will focus strictly on games that actually are games for entertainment, and my involvement with Derpest will just be damage control.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Infinitron Jaesun can we get rid of this guy's other tags and replace with typical modder tag? I mean it's obvious that it's more representative than his current tags.
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
7,757
Location
California
The cannon boss rekt my shit. I didn't know they had their own enemy that lights the fuse...
 

Zanzoken

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
4,064
Started a new game. I leveled the Stagecoach up to 4 heroes/week and have just been throwing them straight in. Two possible outcomes -- I either complete the mission and get loot, or I get a bunch of people killed/stressed and I still get loot, just not as much. Doesn't matter either way -- the stressed out people just get dismissed to make room for the next crop.

I'm surprised they don't make you pay gold for the heroes when they arrive. It essentially means the game has no true fail state -- you'll always have new people show up to fight for you, even if you're completely broke and have already gotten hundreds killed.
 

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,790
Location
Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Yeah no fail state but you have to be very careful on your upgrading heroes since low level dungeons start getting scarce and getting a party for them required either making a whole new crew or leaving a baby care unit like a vestal and a jester to try to level them up a bit on a higher level dungeon, it isnt impossible but is grindy as hell.
I alsi hate how you dont get confirmation on stuff in case your cat jumps in your lap and you buy that fucking expensive trinket or the other upgrade you wanted
The game is fun, but it had some very needless grinding, especially for weapons and armor upgrades for the blacksmith; very frustrating not beign able to get upgrades to be competitive on a new level and having to make a new party to grind out the loot you need
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
7,757
Location
California
so I was at a boss encounter and 1 one of my dudes died, I decided to retreat and head home.

all his rare equipment was lost.

:deathclaw:
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
I'm just saying that I am greatly enjoying watching those who failed their Will save vs Derpest learn the hard way that I was right. When you're done grinding and walking, let me know if you want any real RPG recommendations. In the meanwhile, I'll be watching shills have mental breakdowns every time I don't respond instantly and quoting things that undermine their own points.
 

Bumvelcrow

Somewhat interesting
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Strap Yourselves In
I'm just saying that I am greatly enjoying watching those who failed their Will save vs Derpest learn the hard way that I was right. When you're done grinding and walking, let me know if you want any real RPG recommendations. In the meanwhile, I'll be watching shills have mental breakdowns every time I don't respond instantly and quoting things that undermine their own points.
Crashes on startup for me, so I'm waiting for some bug fixes before I can join in the fun everyone else is evidently having.
 

Suicidal

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
2,317
I find it really strange that DD became as popular as it did. Not that it's a bad game - on the contrary, it's quite fun to play for an hour for a day and then shelve till the next time you get a craving. However I think the level of difficulty of the game puts it in a strange spot where it's too hard for casuals and too easy for people familiar with RPGs or tactical games.

I saw a couple of streamers play this game. One is a League of Legends streamer who is either a complete stoner or a retard (or both) and when he speaks for longer than 2 seconds he has tremendous difficulty forming a coherent line of thought. In the very first encounter he spent more than a minute mashing the button for a skill that he couldn't use because the enemy was in the wrong position, like how a monkey would mash a cylinder shape into a square hole in one of those intelligence tests, and complained that it didn't work. It took him 15 minutes to get through the tutorial and he almost lost one of his guys and he was reading every tutorial tip but still couldn't understand what he was doing. He said the game seemed very hard, but still thought it was cool. The other 2 streamers were variety streamers and a lot more competent than this guy (I guess because they don't play League of Legends it haven't rotten their brains and turned them into vegetables), but still when they played they made tons of mistakes - used blatantly wrong team comps (a slow damage team with no healing, characters with marking but no abilities that work on marks, ranged classes in the front row, etc.), didn't buy enough provisions, attacked wrong targets. They were losing party members left and right frequently and often had to run from dungeons. Nevertheless, they were enjoying the game while calling it stuff like "too hard, ridiculous, unforgiving, etc."

However I tried playing it and it really is kinda easy. I only had to run from a dungeon once when the game decided to spawn the Collector on my wounded and low on supplies party before the last room. My issue with the difficulty is not that direct damage classes are OP as Celerity says, it's that healing and sustain teams are OP. Because there are no resources and you can cast spells as much as you want, it's very easy to top off your party's health at the end of every battle. I gave my leper a trinket that increases healing received by 30%. He now can heal for 10 HP per turn with his self-heal - that's more than the damage any enemy can do to him in 1 turn at this point of the game. I went into a mission with a leper and jester and 2 other guys, who all were at 40-50 stress before the mission, but all finished it with 10-15 because I could just spam the jester's stress heals non stop. It's as if they went into the dungeon to have a picnic and not fight otherworldly horrors. I know it will probably get harder later and that the Darkest Dungeon itself is a pretty difficult location where you're guaranteed to lose at least somebody, from what I've seen, but at the moment it's really easy.

So how can a game too hard for a typical casual mouthbreather and too easy for the hardcore RPG/tactics/turn-based combat crowd become this popular. Is it really because of the art and presentation?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Not just stoners: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-01-25-darkest-dungeon-review

Darkest Dungeon review
Eat, Pray, Lovecraft.

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recommended-large-net.png

Punishing and beautifully crafted, Darkest Dungeon is cruelty at its classiest.

I was feeling pretty good during my first few hours of Darkest Dungeon - until I met The Collector, anyway. Not good good, of course. More specifically, you could say I was feeling terrible. But if you're only feeling terrible in Darkest Dungeon, you're actually feeling pretty good: one guy in my adventuring party had rabies, another had become paranoid, a third was edging towards something that would turn out to be masochism of some stripe. Still, we'd been at it for four or five rooms, so what do you expect? Only rabies? Only a little masochism? What's the problem?

I didn't expect The Collector: a tall fellow in a trenchcoat, with some kind of cage around his head. The head, by the way, was a flaking skull, and under the trenchcoat? More skulls. Still, this was okay, until I saw his HP: 70/70. Even that was still pretty okay, until he started summoning floating spine-type things, with heads that matched the heads of my own team. Oh: The Collector. Got it. Also: got killed. All of us. A mega-wipe.

And here's the thing: The Collector is not a boss. There's a decent list of bosses in Darkest Dungeon, and The Collector is not on it. This is presumably because The Collector does not have what it takes to be a boss. He doesn't make the cut. The Collector, with his head that is a skull, with his body that is also skulls, is just too reasonable.

Oppressive, cruel and exhilarating, Darkest Dungeon is one of the most beautifully designed games I've seen in a while. And the beauty of the design is everywhere, from the art direction and atmosphere, which inks this dungeon-diving semi-roguelike in the blotchy, heavy-lined stylings of a House of Usher horror comic, to the smallest facets of the mechanics, like the way that hunger is a sort of randomised tax, foisted on you when you least expect it, or the manner in which the ever-decreasing light when you're out adventuring means that you can't catch a breath between encounters without sacrificing a few of the torches you've hopefully remembered to bring with you. (Actually, it's even more beautiful than that: low light increases danger but also ups the rewards, tempting you towards trouble.) Some of the fine detailing will have come from the game's relatively lengthy spell in early access, but not all of it. Red Hook Studios, whose logo is a grasping Cthulhian tentacle, has a rare gift for malice. A gift that, like The Collector, you must be born with.

And while it's true that, at every stage of the early access development, Darkest Dungeon got meaner and more imaginative in its barbarity, it's a pretty villainous thing even in its most basic incarnation. An ancient country house sits on top of a terrible secret, and it's your job to explore the ruins that lie beneath, sending crocodile teams of four heroes slinking out into the darkness where they can loot treasure, spring hideous traps, read disturbing books from sagging shelves and engage in crunchy turn-based battles.

The twist is that your team's mental health counts for as much as their physical health - that those disturbing books you encounter can do more damage, in the correct situations, than a pig-man's corrosive vomit. The more you linger in the abyss, the more that stress eats away at your heroes, with each psychic collapse bringing about unexpected behaviour - a strike or a pass in battle that you didn't request, for example. Alongside afflictions, you'll also pick up new quirks from time to time, which amount to modifiers, really, bestowing a weakness to a certain enemy type, say, or an inability to land blows when the light gets too low.

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Provisions are crucial for a successful night's questing. Shame they take up space you might need for loot. Levelling makes your characters hardier when it comes to the stress of later quests - but it also gives you a lot to lose. Healing's only really efficient in battles, adding another layer of tactics.

Even without all this, battles would give you more than enough to think about. Take the unusually imaginative classes - Occultists, Lepers, the Abomination who can shift between Jekyll and Hyde forms at great inconvenience to his friends - each of them bringing their own attacks and perks, and each of them ensuring that you need to factor in a specific preference for where the hero stands in your row of heroes, and which position in the row of enemies it will be able to attack. Take the fallen bodies of your foes, which remain in situ (until you waste attacks on removing them), creating blockages, and sometimes allowing for devastating reanimations. Placement is crucial, in other words, and real tactics come into play once you realise that your favourite lunge, say, reshuffles the pack a little too much, or that the weak baddie at the back who you'd been leaving for last can't do much damage, but can bring your team out of alignment and leave you gaping and unable to attack at all.

On top of all that - and on top of bleeding and blighting, which strip your heroes of health turn-by-turn unless dealt with efficiently - on top of all that, you have the stress system, slowly building up with every misfortune and every dimming of the torch until a personal cataclysm sends a hero to the brink. What do they find at the brink? Sometimes masochism, paranoia, or selfishness, each with their own penalties. Sometimes something more virtuous: they rise to the occasion and become emboldened. But not very often. You would not choose to risk it, just as, after a while, you may choose not to risk opening the game's treasure chests, which may contain loot, or may contain a disease or something worse. (If H. P. Lovecraft had been a game designer and a parent, and had spent an afternoon in the park fretting over what his kid was likely to pick up and put in his mouth, he might have conceived of Darkest Dungeon.)

Stress and its afflictions also bring a strategic side of things into play. Between diving into dungeons, which are 2D affairs, their horrors and traps split between hallways and rooms, procedurally scrambled and carved up into different areas and a handful of repeating quest types, you return to the hamlet. Here you can collect new heroes from the stagecoach, buy and trade trinkets that can be equipped for stat boosts, and do lots of other standard RPG stuff like level up skills and armour and unlock new attacks. But you can also treat your heroes, at church, or at the bar, locking them away for a mission - often at considerable cost - in the hope that a little gambling, or a little flagellation, will lower their stress. Or you can pack them away to the sanitarium to remove some of the quirks and diseases they have picked up the last time they ventured out - or to lock in others that actually improve them as a character.

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The bosses are great, but every battle feels a bit like a boss fight anyway. Things can get away from you very quickly here: the lowliest spider can kill a party with blight poisoning, while a handful of weak ectoplasms can divide and overwhelm if you don't kill their corpses.

These simple choices, enlivened through kinks that may see one hero unable to do anything other than gamble, while another simply must drink to soothe their ills, come together with permadeath and a character roster that inevitably leaves something to chance as it chucks new heroes at you, each with their own starting quirks, to create fascinating personnel problems for you to solve. It's insane to venture off into the darkness without an occultist or another kind of healer, but the last time you ventured off, your occultist went insane and is now out for a turn as a result. How about tanking with the abomination to make up for it? But your religious heroes absolutely won't party with him. Ditto, I think, the lepers. Equally, long missions require an overnight camp, during which specific hero skills kick in to heal or buff. But what if your best heroes have lame camping skills? What then?

This is merely the start of it. These are problems you'll encounter long before you hit the veteran quests that can undo you with truly alarming speed. Darkest Dungeon offers the best kind of complexity, I think. A handful of disarmingly simple systems braid your ambitions, compulsions and fears into a noose, and it is you who ultimately places it around your own neck. Take one final example: you need gold and other resources to heal your heroes and upgrade your town, but traps mean that looting is dangerous. So, however, is not looting, because your heroes are going to need help. Help with all those psychological problems they may have picked up through looting.

Despite all this, Darkest Dungeon could so easily be a cold exercise in design. Thankfully, its presentation, its dark wit and its love of grot and gills and grime, elevates it to the realm of something really special. The 2D art is wonderfully unstinting when it comes to the rugged, bruised, and hollow-eyed men and women you lead through these dank, crumbling ossuaries, while the animation, although simple, breaks things down into a weighty and bone-crushing series of heroic lunges and miserable cringes. The bosses are as disgusting in the flesh as they are cruel in their tactics, and very best of all is the narrator, mocking, undermining, luring you into overconfidence and then berating you for it in the kind of gloriously ornate language that Lovecraft himself loved to scratch onto the page. The narrator is a reminder that you, ultimately, are the chaotic element here, the element that turns a fair game into an unfair one, the element that can't resist trying out the final dungeon area with a hopelessly under-leveled party, and must therefore reap the consequences.

Consider Lovecraft. No, consider the anglerfish, that Lovecraftian nightmare of the deep with its sickly glowing lightbulb luring you in before the wretched face becomes visible. The tiny, melted eyes, the cruel underbite, and the thatch, not of hair, but of teeth. This is Darkest Dungeon, even before the fish people turn up and are troublingly untroubled by bleeding. This is a game that's horrid in a way that means that you can't look away, a game of exhaustion and luridness and of terrible things happening in an awful, awful place. In other words, it's just lovely.

Celerity, do you have an account on Eurogamer?
 

Wizfall

Cipher
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
816
Told you it was a fun little game that will give you much enjoyment until you get burned by his simplistic design.
And that is was not a hard game like some stupid folks said.
Can't believe some of you believe an obviously insane modder.
 
Self-Ejected

Ludo Lense

Self-Ejected
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
936
I'm just saying that I am greatly enjoying watching those who failed their Will save vs Derpest learn the hard way that I was right. When you're done grinding and walking, let me know if you want any real RPG recommendations. In the meanwhile, I'll be watching shills have mental breakdowns every time I don't respond instantly and quoting things that undermine their own points.

I am actually gonna argue in good faith here. Darkest Dungeon is fundamentally a good game but with misleading marketing. Let us abstract what it says it does and look at what it actually does.

There is no fail state, instead investing your resources badly will result in a sub-optimal route to the endgame, in this way it is closer to a Facebook cow clicker than X-com.

There are no meaningful tactical decisions to make, everything is strategy. The most important part of combat is your team party composition which it results in a single tactic. Mark Parties, Heal Parties etc. This is mostly due to classes being one dimensional in their role. I think the Jester is the only class that can be built has either a pure support or pure damage.

These are all the marks of a casual game but it also has a bizarre elements of hardcore games. Bad party compositions are harshly punished. You really can't figure out the Curios without wiking unless you spend 10's of hours recording everything to work them out.

All of it adds up to a game which is good in short bursts since its repetitive nature quickly wears people down but in that short period it is a fun distraction combined with some really good artwork.

Given how stretched out the content is, most people won't reach the endgame (like most people don't reach the endgame of facebook games) but that doesn't mean they can't get their money's worth by treating it has a casual experience.

Personally I treat it has an alternative to playing multiplayer games with people during lunch break. I do 2-3 dungeon runs then back to work. I wouldn't sit down and play this at home for 3-4 hours.

Should DD be panned for the marketing? Sure. But that doesn't mean people can't find enjoyment in playing the game when they find out it is different from its advertising.

P.S. I think you will find out that your definition of "real RPG" will be significantly different from most people on this site given your lack of knowledge about Fallout which is a sacred cow around here. http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9453 here is a top of games made by the RPG Codex regulars. If you don't consider any of the games in the Top 20 "real RPGs" then this site probably isn't for you. Which isn't something wrong, you like what you like but when you starting using terms like "group think promoter" unironically while having an obvious lack of knowledge about the games that are highly regarded around here, it is hard not to make fun of you and generally disregard what you say. Also, subcultures generally frown upon outsiders embracing their language in a wrong manner then thinking they are owed an explanation. Do try to be more humble, you aren't owed anything by anyone here.
 
Last edited:

Xor

Arcane
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Jan 21, 2008
Messages
9,345
Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
That matches my own experience with the game as well. For the first few hours or so, I found the game to be pretty challenging, losing characters and failing runs maybe half the time. But after a while, I started to figure out how to use each class, how to compose parties for each dungeon, and I started using the wiki to figure out curios. Then the game got really easy, and I only lost three party members since then to bad luck. This was back in August before they added some of the new artificial difficulty stuff like heart attacks, but I doubt that would take much adjustment to my play style to overcome.

There are certainly some design decision that I would've made differently had I been designing it, but I still had fun with it for 40 hour or so. It's been long enough that I'll probably go back and try to finish it, too; the main reason I quit was because the last dungeon wasn't in yet so there wasn't really a win condition. It's certainly not what I'd call a bad game.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,962
All i can say is that i wouldnt be reading this thread if it wasnt because of Celerity, game is garbage and you only need like an hour to see this.
Good ideas and poor execution are what most indies are about, this isnt an exception.
 

Zanzoken

Arcane
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
4,064
So how can a game too hard for a typical casual mouthbreather and too easy for the hardcore RPG/tactics/turn-based combat crowd become this popular. Is it really because of the art and presentation?

That's a big part of it. The game is stylish and polished, and it got a lot of marketing exposure via Steam and Twitch/LPers.

I think it also managed to tap into the "losing is fun" dynamic, a la Dark Souls -- a dynamic I believe is actually more popular with casuals than a lot of people realize. But as you point out the game really isn't that hard, and like I said above, it's barely even possible to actually lose outright. So the dumbasses have all the time in the world to at least get a little better (or just lucky), and they are never confronted with the feels-crushing disappointment of a "game over" screen.

Some of the design aspects are clearly influenced by mobile games as well. The game practically showers you in gold, heirlooms, gemstones, etc and then includes a lot of resource sinks for you to pour them into. People are constantly having those reward centers stoked when they collect loot, then the feeling of tangible progress when they upgrade the hamlet.

In reality this aspect of the game is not actually fun, but it has that "treadmill" type of game loop that compulsively drives people to keep playing. It probably would've made assloads of money as a F2P game.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Every time I try to play it again I get bored after three or so combat encounters. To the point where I just Alt F4 because I can't be bothered to finish the one I might happen to be fighting. The combat itself is 'okay.' The character progression is shallow. The trinkets are shallow. The perks/debuffs are often inconsequential to the point where you can ignore most of them. There are a lot of good concepts but most of them are poorly implemented.

I wouldn't say the game is too hard for a casual as it is too time consuming to progress. It has the depth of a phone game but typically you want phone games to be playable in ten or so minute snippets. Given the slow pacing the average fight takes ten minutes never mind clearing one dungeon. I agree, though, that the Hamlet screams designed for microtransactions a la Angry Birds.

Mostly pissed I paid $20 for this in EA. Had I gotten it for $5 in some bundle, it would be fine. Bottom line -- don't buy this game standalone it's not worth it.
 

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