Diablo IV

[ArchAngel]

I will admit D4 has two advantages over PoE. Since I went back to playing PoE I was reminded immediately about these things:
1. No eye cancer in D4. In PoE I activate one of the many stupid mechanics like Ritual and game spews out 50 monsters in small area each with their own fireworks. I do not have any clue what is going on or where I am targeting.. I just activate all flasks and all my buffs and hold my one attack button until they or me are dead.
2. No random movement blockers in D4, or at least the game is not fast enough for those to matter. In PoE you hit into shit all the time while trying to use some movement skill or when just trying to move back a bit. So many dungeons are full of small corridors. D4 also has corridors but they are not as tiny.

 

[Vic]

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can start farming for the best loot.

 

[ArchAngel]

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can farm for the best loot.

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

 

[Vic]

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can farm for the best loot.

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

yes that’s why you have to grind for loot if you feel enemies are getting too strong before moving on…. or do all of them scale the same?

 

[abija]

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

That is grossly exagerated and the leap you took on top of it is quite special.

If you have a linear build you kill everything that has some density, if you have a kitchensink cd build, you just kill everything around elite packs, as in every other game (because it's the most efficient way of killing monsters fast relative to your build).

 

[Zlaja]

Guys, if you don't wanna join SDG's clan then maybe these ones are more up your alley?

Also, for you POE fags:

 

[Yosharian]

Immersion ruined!

 

[ArchAngel]

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can farm for the best loot.

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

yes that’s why you have to grind for loot if you feel enemies are getting too strong before moving on…. or do all of them scale the same?

Everyone everywhere scales. There is nowhere to go and grind. This is what one of the winners of race to 100 talked about. Because as a group they focused on getting 100 instead of gridding gear he cannot use that character to solo anything as he would just die and cannot get loot of needed level. They were also playing hardcore so it is extra hard for that combination as you cannot just Zerg to better loot.

 

[ArchAngel]

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

That is grossly exagerated and the leap you took on top of it is quite special.

If you have a linear build you kill everything that has some density, if you have a kitchensink cd build, you just kill everything around elite packs, as in every other game (because it's the most efficient way of killing monsters fast relative to your build).

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can farm for the best loot.

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

yes that’s why you have to grind for loot if you feel enemies are getting too strong before moving on…. or do all of them scale the same?

Everyone everywhere scales. There is nowhere to go and grind. This is what one of the winners of race to 100 talked about. Because as a group they focused on getting 100 instead of gridding gear he cannot use that character to solo anything as he would just die and cannot get loot of needed level. They were also playing hardcore so it is extra hard for that combination as you cannot just Zerg to better loot.

See above explanation.

 

[Lovely Feather Pillow]

What is worse due to how level scaling works, killing monsters in D4 is not recommended unless that monster can also drop good loot. So you are encouraged to skip all overworld monsters and even all normal ones in dungeons and just kill big ones.

HUUUUH?

It is simple math. Most power comes from loot, leveling up just powers up monsters. So you want to get most loot while killing less monsters.

I haven’t played D4 but in these games you want to reach max level so you can farm for the best loot.

Not in D4, if you outlevel your loot too much game becomes impossible to play due to level scaling.

yes that’s why you have to grind for loot if you feel enemies are getting too strong before moving on…. or do all of them scale the same?

All enemies scale with you so you can’t grind areas for loot before moving on to harder content. It’s the same scaling system Gearbox used in Borderlands 3.

 

[abija]

Everyone everywhere scales. There is nowhere to go and grind. This is what one of the winners of race to 100 talked about. Because as a group they focused on getting 100 instead of gridding gear he cannot use that character to solo anything as he would just die and cannot get loot of needed level. They were also playing hardcore so it is extra hard for that combination as you cannot just Zerg to better loot.

Zizaran (I suspect) exagerated for effected, you extrapolated to hell and back.
He can lower difficulty or go to nightmare dungeons and grind some gear. Or even get gear from shops.

They didn't loot for 30smthing levels because "it would slow them down", didn't upgrade any glyph and still were strong enough to clear dungeons in group. He pussied out solo at max level because he plays hardcore but the "bricked" character that cannot progress is bullshit.

 

[ArchAngel]

Everyone everywhere scales. There is nowhere to go and grind. This is what one of the winners of race to 100 talked about. Because as a group they focused on getting 100 instead of gridding gear he cannot use that character to solo anything as he would just die and cannot get loot of needed level. They were also playing hardcore so it is extra hard for that combination as you cannot just Zerg to better loot.

Zizaran (I suspect) exagerated for effected, you extrapolated to hell and back.
He can lower difficulty or go to nightmare dungeons and grind some gear. Or even get gear from shops.

They didn't loot for 30smthing levels because "it would slow them down", didn't upgrade any glyph and still were strong enough to clear dungeons in group. He pussied out solo at max level because he plays hardcore but the "bricked" character that cannot progress is bullshit.

Nah, I think it was steelmage. Lowering difficulty does not help as you cannot get sacred or ancestral items that way.
And even if you call it bullshit and think it can be circumvented it is still a bad design problem that should not exist. Leveling should never be a punishment for strength of your character.

 

[abija]

Yeah it does, they grind glyphs up and get good rolls sacred gear, then they do lower level nightmare dungeons for ancestrals.

So the game should be 200-300% easier for everyone because some people decide to ignore stuff in their builds just to rush to max level?

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

I did, for about 20+ hours. Tried everyone but Rogue.

You played the beta for 20 hours, ie, a demo, which probably wasn't even 5% of the game.

It was pretty much the whole game due to how level scaling works and how all dungeons are the same. We even had access to all the skills in first beta.
Only thing lacking was access to paragon where it is only passive bonuses anyways.

So, uh, you played the shit out of the beta, watched some cherry picked streams that aligned with your agenda, also read some revios that also align with your agenda and now wield a authoritative conclusion that the game is shit?

Come on man, i like shitting on greedy corporate douchebags like Blizzard as much as anyone, but the game isnt bad...

 

[Reinhardt]

making every trash mob hp sponge is WORST kind of encounter design.

 

[Reinhardt]

but the game isnt bad...

it is

 

[ArchAngel]

Yeah it does, they grind glyphs up and get good rolls sacred gear, then they do lower level nightmare dungeons for ancestrals.

So the game should be 200-300% easier for everyone because some people decide to ignore stuff in their builds just to rush to max level?

It should be slightly easier in same zone for those that only level up one part of their character just like how all other GOOD Diablo likes do it. I can level up my characters to 90+ in PoE and own yellow maps but if I want to own red maps I also need to upgrade my gear. I am not punished from playing the game for leveling up but I am also not going to do hardest content without putting more effort. This is good design.

 

[Saravan]

"It's not enough to just look at the shit, you must eat it too. Else how can you know for sure it's shit?"

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

Now I am lvl 50 atm, just got my first paragon point, I try to upgrade my gear every 5 lvls or so on average, depends on what i find, had some nice unique drops too, dismantled some as well, and i am actually having a decent time.
Its not like i am reliving my youth again playing Diablo 1 and 2, but its...good?

 

[Saravan]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

This is honestly for the vast majority a non-issue and would only affect level rushers. In D2 or PoE you can level rush and leverage your skill points to tackle content a few tiers below your actual level to gear up. If D2 had D4's level scaling you would be fucked by Nightmare Mephisto at lvl 60, 70 or whatever. Anyways this is a fringe case issue with level scaling, the retarded part is how it affects itemisation but this has already been covered ad naseum and the retards refuse to understand why.

 

[ArchAngel]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

Now I am lvl 50 atm, just got my first paragon point, I try to upgrade my gear every 5 lvls or so on average, depends on what i find, had some nice unique drops too, dismantled some as well, and i am actually having a decent time.
Its not like i am reliving my youth again playing Diablo 1 and 2, but its...good?

You are comparing apples and oranges now. Look at my previous post where I explain how GOOD Diablo like design works.

 

[abija]

It should be slightly easier in same zone for those that only level up one part of their character just like how all other GOOD Diablo likes do it. I can level up my characters to 90+ in PoE and own yellow maps but if I want to own red maps I also need to upgrade my gear. I am not punished from playing the game for leveling up but I am also not going to do hardest content without putting more effort. This is good design.

Game is already EASY. They have the option to lower difficulty after deliberately abusing xp. It's a total non issue blown out of proportion.

Anyways this is a fringe case issue with level scaling, the retarded part is how it affects itemisation but this has already been covered ad naseum and the retards refuse to understand why.

Nope, it really wasn't covered. You complaining about something without real arguments doesn't mean shit.

 

[spectre]

Hurr durr, so it's not like biadlo 2 and really not like patch of egzil, therefore I cannot enjoy it and neither should you.
I am familiar with the eternal autistic struggle.

I can only speak for Nightmare difficulty for now, but the difficulty issue is indeed blown out of proportion.
Once you get a semi-decent build together (the capstone dungeon is a good test for it), it will melt right through trash mobs.
At some point you may notice clearing gets slower, that'll be your cue to upgrade the gear, and there are a bunch of ways of doing so.
At the end of the day, you will only be challenged by bosses and elites and most of encounter variety will come from the random mods they rol.

Personally, I find it weird to complain about level scaling in this genre.
With no level scaling, only thing you gain is making early game areas obsolete, effectively robbing you of content to play because it's no longer kosher for your level.
PoE was the first to tackle this by introducing maps, so that early game assets aren't entirely wasted, but I'd say it's taking a different route to achieve the same thing.
There are still areas on the map that can be above your level, as long as you're below the max level for the current world difficulty,
so it's not like everything just snaps to your level like in Bolivion.
True, this also means you can theoretically stick to one area and do all your business there, but in practice there is always some incentive to haul ass elsewhere
because of events.

You know where it actually gets weird? Level 20 characters being able to do the same content as guys on Level 40, simultaneously.
I reckon that was the design objective all along, cause bizzard wanted people to team up in this game and effectively closed the lid on the singleplayer roots.
Remains to be seen if it's a bad thing, or if it leads to bad things. So far, other players aren't too obnoxious, I'm even enjoying the PvP area for that little bit of added thrill.

Does it break immersion? Perhaps if you choose to focus too much on it. In the context of the game world, every city is now filled to the brim with characters capable of
defeating Prime Evils, queuing up to the same blacksmith like it's a ride in an amusement park. At least for the time being nobody is sporting demon wings or flaming footsteps,
but I reckon they are somewhere down the pipeline.

 

[Saravan]

Hurr durr, so it's not like biadlo 2 and really not like patch of egzil, therefore I cannot enjoy it and neither should you.
I am familiar with the eternal autistic struggle.

I can only speak for Nightmare difficulty for now, but the difficulty issue is indeed blown out of proportion.
Once you get a semi-decent build together (the capstone dungeon is a good test for it), it will melt right through trash mobs.
At some point you may notice clearing gets slower, that'll be your cue to upgrade the gear, and there are a bunch of ways of doing so.
At the end of the day, you will only be challenged by bosses and elites and most of encounter variety will come from the random mods they rol.

Personally, I find it weird to complain about level scaling in this genre.
With no level scaling, only thing you gain is making early game areas obsolete, effectively robbing you of content to play because it's no longer kosher for your level.
PoE was the first to tackle this by introducing maps, so that early game assets aren't entirely wasted, but I'd say it's taking a different route to achieve the same thing.
There are still areas on the map that can be above your level, as long as you're below the max level for the current world difficulty,
so it's not like everything just snaps to your level like in Bolivion.
True, this also means you can theoretically stick to one area and do all your business there, but in practice there is always some incentive to haul ass elsewhere
because of events.

You know where it actually gets weird? Level 20 characters being able to do the same content as guys on Level 40, simultaneously.
I reckon that was the design objective all along, cause bizzard wanted people to team up in this game and effectively closed the lid on the singleplayer roots.
Remains to be seen if it's a bad thing, or if it leads to bad things. So far, other players aren't too obnoxious, I'm even enjoying the PvP area for that little bit of added thrill.

Does it break immersion? Perhaps if you choose to focus too much on it. In the context of the game world, every city is now filled to the brim with characters capable of
defeating Prime Evils, queuing up to the same blacksmith like it's a ride in an amusement park. At least for the time being nobody is sporting demon wings or flaming footsteps,
but I reckon they are somewhere down the pipeline.

JFC here we go again. Level scaling in this game is designed to work in tandem with drops, so when you level up the item level range of what you can receive goes up. This means that you have exactly one shot at getting items for alts during your level progression. It's also means that by design, the items are perpetually replaced until you reached the highest item tier because everything else is made useless as you go. You will never have a situation where something the equivalent of a frostburn drops for you in the game during 'normal' difficulty to then have that piece of equipment with you for a long time because of how useful it is. All you are doing is chasing higher affix rolls for 100 levels. This situation should only occur during ultra end-game and that's why you read all these people who after they reach +70 level come and complain on the forums how barebones the item chase feels.

Retarded thinking btw to think people want carbon copy of D2/PoE. Want to see improvement and refinement of systems that worked and fixing of flaws. Not replacing the whole thing with streamlined garbage for mass appeal.

 

[Fedora Master]

This was the exact same problem late-stage D3 had and yet here we are again.