Diablo IV

[ArchAngel]

Everyone everywhere scales. There is nowhere to go and grind. This is what one of the winners of race to 100 talked about. Because as a group they focused on getting 100 instead of gridding gear he cannot use that character to solo anything as he would just die and cannot get loot of needed level. They were also playing hardcore so it is extra hard for that combination as you cannot just Zerg to better loot.

Zizaran (I suspect) exagerated for effected, you extrapolated to hell and back.
He can lower difficulty or go to nightmare dungeons and grind some gear. Or even get gear from shops.

They didn't loot for 30smthing levels because "it would slow them down", didn't upgrade any glyph and still were strong enough to clear dungeons in group. He pussied out solo at max level because he plays hardcore but the "bricked" character that cannot progress is bullshit.

Nah, I think it was steelmage. Lowering difficulty does not help as you cannot get sacred or ancestral items that way.
And even if you call it bullshit and think it can be circumvented it is still a bad design problem that should not exist. Leveling should never be a punishment for strength of your character.

 

[abija]

Yeah it does, they grind glyphs up and get good rolls sacred gear, then they do lower level nightmare dungeons for ancestrals.

So the game should be 200-300% easier for everyone because some people decide to ignore stuff in their builds just to rush to max level?

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

I did, for about 20+ hours. Tried everyone but Rogue.

You played the beta for 20 hours, ie, a demo, which probably wasn't even 5% of the game.

It was pretty much the whole game due to how level scaling works and how all dungeons are the same. We even had access to all the skills in first beta.
Only thing lacking was access to paragon where it is only passive bonuses anyways.

So, uh, you played the shit out of the beta, watched some cherry picked streams that aligned with your agenda, also read some revios that also align with your agenda and now wield a authoritative conclusion that the game is shit?

Come on man, i like shitting on greedy corporate douchebags like Blizzard as much as anyone, but the game isnt bad...

 

[Reinhardt]

making every trash mob hp sponge is WORST kind of encounter design.

 

[Reinhardt]

but the game isnt bad...

it is

 

[ArchAngel]

Yeah it does, they grind glyphs up and get good rolls sacred gear, then they do lower level nightmare dungeons for ancestrals.

So the game should be 200-300% easier for everyone because some people decide to ignore stuff in their builds just to rush to max level?

It should be slightly easier in same zone for those that only level up one part of their character just like how all other GOOD Diablo likes do it. I can level up my characters to 90+ in PoE and own yellow maps but if I want to own red maps I also need to upgrade my gear. I am not punished from playing the game for leveling up but I am also not going to do hardest content without putting more effort. This is good design.

 

[Saravan]

"It's not enough to just look at the shit, you must eat it too. Else how can you know for sure it's shit?"

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

Now I am lvl 50 atm, just got my first paragon point, I try to upgrade my gear every 5 lvls or so on average, depends on what i find, had some nice unique drops too, dismantled some as well, and i am actually having a decent time.
Its not like i am reliving my youth again playing Diablo 1 and 2, but its...good?

 

[Saravan]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

This is honestly for the vast majority a non-issue and would only affect level rushers. In D2 or PoE you can level rush and leverage your skill points to tackle content a few tiers below your actual level to gear up. If D2 had D4's level scaling you would be fucked by Nightmare Mephisto at lvl 60, 70 or whatever. Anyways this is a fringe case issue with level scaling, the retarded part is how it affects itemisation but this has already been covered ad naseum and the retards refuse to understand why.

 

[ArchAngel]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

Now I am lvl 50 atm, just got my first paragon point, I try to upgrade my gear every 5 lvls or so on average, depends on what i find, had some nice unique drops too, dismantled some as well, and i am actually having a decent time.
Its not like i am reliving my youth again playing Diablo 1 and 2, but its...good?

You are comparing apples and oranges now. Look at my previous post where I explain how GOOD Diablo like design works.

 

[abija]

It should be slightly easier in same zone for those that only level up one part of their character just like how all other GOOD Diablo likes do it. I can level up my characters to 90+ in PoE and own yellow maps but if I want to own red maps I also need to upgrade my gear. I am not punished from playing the game for leveling up but I am also not going to do hardest content without putting more effort. This is good design.

Game is already EASY. They have the option to lower difficulty after deliberately abusing xp. It's a total non issue blown out of proportion.

Anyways this is a fringe case issue with level scaling, the retarded part is how it affects itemisation but this has already been covered ad naseum and the retards refuse to understand why.

Nope, it really wasn't covered. You complaining about something without real arguments doesn't mean shit.

 

[spectre]

Hurr durr, so it's not like biadlo 2 and really not like patch of egzil, therefore I cannot enjoy it and neither should you.
I am familiar with the eternal autistic struggle.

I can only speak for Nightmare difficulty for now, but the difficulty issue is indeed blown out of proportion.
Once you get a semi-decent build together (the capstone dungeon is a good test for it), it will melt right through trash mobs.
At some point you may notice clearing gets slower, that'll be your cue to upgrade the gear, and there are a bunch of ways of doing so.
At the end of the day, you will only be challenged by bosses and elites and most of encounter variety will come from the random mods they rol.

Personally, I find it weird to complain about level scaling in this genre.
With no level scaling, only thing you gain is making early game areas obsolete, effectively robbing you of content to play because it's no longer kosher for your level.
PoE was the first to tackle this by introducing maps, so that early game assets aren't entirely wasted, but I'd say it's taking a different route to achieve the same thing.
There are still areas on the map that can be above your level, as long as you're below the max level for the current world difficulty,
so it's not like everything just snaps to your level like in Bolivion.
True, this also means you can theoretically stick to one area and do all your business there, but in practice there is always some incentive to haul ass elsewhere
because of events.

You know where it actually gets weird? Level 20 characters being able to do the same content as guys on Level 40, simultaneously.
I reckon that was the design objective all along, cause bizzard wanted people to team up in this game and effectively closed the lid on the singleplayer roots.
Remains to be seen if it's a bad thing, or if it leads to bad things. So far, other players aren't too obnoxious, I'm even enjoying the PvP area for that little bit of added thrill.

Does it break immersion? Perhaps if you choose to focus too much on it. In the context of the game world, every city is now filled to the brim with characters capable of
defeating Prime Evils, queuing up to the same blacksmith like it's a ride in an amusement park. At least for the time being nobody is sporting demon wings or flaming footsteps,
but I reckon they are somewhere down the pipeline.

 

[Saravan]

Hurr durr, so it's not like biadlo 2 and really not like patch of egzil, therefore I cannot enjoy it and neither should you.
I am familiar with the eternal autistic struggle.

I can only speak for Nightmare difficulty for now, but the difficulty issue is indeed blown out of proportion.
Once you get a semi-decent build together (the capstone dungeon is a good test for it), it will melt right through trash mobs.
At some point you may notice clearing gets slower, that'll be your cue to upgrade the gear, and there are a bunch of ways of doing so.
At the end of the day, you will only be challenged by bosses and elites and most of encounter variety will come from the random mods they rol.

Personally, I find it weird to complain about level scaling in this genre.
With no level scaling, only thing you gain is making early game areas obsolete, effectively robbing you of content to play because it's no longer kosher for your level.
PoE was the first to tackle this by introducing maps, so that early game assets aren't entirely wasted, but I'd say it's taking a different route to achieve the same thing.
There are still areas on the map that can be above your level, as long as you're below the max level for the current world difficulty,
so it's not like everything just snaps to your level like in Bolivion.
True, this also means you can theoretically stick to one area and do all your business there, but in practice there is always some incentive to haul ass elsewhere
because of events.

You know where it actually gets weird? Level 20 characters being able to do the same content as guys on Level 40, simultaneously.
I reckon that was the design objective all along, cause bizzard wanted people to team up in this game and effectively closed the lid on the singleplayer roots.
Remains to be seen if it's a bad thing, or if it leads to bad things. So far, other players aren't too obnoxious, I'm even enjoying the PvP area for that little bit of added thrill.

Does it break immersion? Perhaps if you choose to focus too much on it. In the context of the game world, every city is now filled to the brim with characters capable of
defeating Prime Evils, queuing up to the same blacksmith like it's a ride in an amusement park. At least for the time being nobody is sporting demon wings or flaming footsteps,
but I reckon they are somewhere down the pipeline.

JFC here we go again. Level scaling in this game is designed to work in tandem with drops, so when you level up the item level range of what you can receive goes up. This means that you have exactly one shot at getting items for alts during your level progression. It's also means that by design, the items are perpetually replaced until you reached the highest item tier because everything else is made useless as you go. You will never have a situation where something the equivalent of a frostburn drops for you in the game during 'normal' difficulty to then have that piece of equipment with you for a long time because of how useful it is. All you are doing is chasing higher affix rolls for 100 levels. This situation should only occur during ultra end-game and that's why you read all these people who after they reach +70 level come and complain on the forums how barebones the item chase feels.

Retarded thinking btw to think people want carbon copy of D2/PoE. Want to see improvement and refinement of systems that worked and fixing of flaws. Not replacing the whole thing with streamlined garbage for mass appeal.

 

[Fedora Master]

This was the exact same problem late-stage D3 had and yet here we are again.

 

[abija]

Saravan
1. The irreplaceable item is a issue just in your head. I already told you it's better than in d2 because you might actually get a better version of that irreplaceble item in your build, of which there are a few
2. It's still a "not exactly like d2 so shit" issue
3. It HAS nothing to do with level scaling. Nothing stops the devs from adding a lvl 20 item that only drops on WT1 and WT2 and it's the best item ever.
4. A lot of legendary powers/aspects already don't care about level, so a good drop early might be usefull in endgame.

JFC here we go again. Level scaling in this game is designed to work in tandem with drops, so when you level up the item level range of what you can receive goes up. This means that you have exactly one shot at getting items for alts during your level progression.

Are you referring to the fact that in WT3 and WT4 items are set to your level? That's just a "hack" to let you use any item that drops in that difficulty, even if you get a perfect max ilvl roll at lvl 60 when you just entered WT4. No idea if intended or not but hat also makes those lucky rolls extremely valuable to trade.
Still nothing to do with level scaling, just their decision to let you use higher ilvl gear than you should (if lucky enough to get the drop).

 

[spectre]

So you're saying I should quit having fun? Fuck off, I got some 70 yuros worth of sunken cost fallacy to work through.

You will never have a situation where something the equivalent of a frostburn drops for you in the game during 'normal' difficulty to then have that piece of equipment with you for a long time because of how useful it is.

So far, I fully respecc'd two characted builds because of item drops pre level 50, so those felt pretty meaningful, but that might be just me.
For what I've seen, a well-rolled Aspect can stay with you for a bit. Build-defining uniques are also still there.

It's also means that by design, the items are perpetually replaced until you reached the highest item tier because everything else is made useless as you go.

I kept a level 37 ring on for something like 20 levels because it rolled nicely for my current build and the rngjesus wasn't kind for that particular slot.

Not sure what you're getting at here? You don't want to replace items? I thought that was the appeal - there's always a chance for something better to drop,
otherwise there's no point to the slot machine.

All you are doing is chasing higher affix rolls for 100 levels.

I thought that's essentially what we're here for, always chasing for that perfect roll within the given range.
I'm starting to feel you don't really like those ARPGames, mang.

Retarded thinking btw to think people want carbon copy of D2/PoE.

Then maybe those people should stop arguing like it's exactly what they wanted?

 

[Saravan]

Saravan
1. The irreplaceable item is a issue just in your head. I already told you it's better than in d2 because you might actually get a better version of that irreplaceble item in your build, of which there are a few
2. It's still a "not exactly like d2 so shit" issue
3. It HAS nothing to do with level scaling. Nothing stops the devs from adding a lvl 20 item that only drops on WT1 and WT2 and it's the best item ever.
4. A lot of legendary powers/aspects already don't care about level, so a good drop early might be usefull in endgame.

JFC here we go again. Level scaling in this game is designed to work in tandem with drops, so when you level up the item level range of what you can receive goes up. This means that you have exactly one shot at getting items for alts during your level progression.

Are you referring to the fact that in WT3 and WT4 items are set to your level? That's just a "hack" to let you use any item that drops in that difficulty, even if you get a perfect max ilvl roll at lvl 60 when you just entered WT4. No idea if intended or not but hat also makes those lucky rolls extremely valuable to trade.
Still nothing to do with level scaling, just their decision to let you use higher ilvl gear than you should (if lucky enough to get the drop).

1. Literally irrelevant to what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you should be able to get BIS items during early game only that good itemisation offers longetivity to items being found across the entire game, not just endlessly salvaging shit until you hit highest item bracket.
2. Retarded take. Not a problem in Grim Dawn, LE or PoE either.
3. Has everything to do with it. Blizzard is never going to do that, lmao the coping. This system is here to make sure every retarded casual with 5 minutes to play the game every 2 years can always feel relevant regardless of who they group up with. It's to maximize group play and ultimately sales.
4. That's limited to aspects, completely barebones.

spectre I really don't give a shit how much or for how long you have fun with the game. We are talking about the systems of the game. Chasing higher affix rolls for 100 levels is not how good itemisation works in other ARPGs. That's the symptom of a shit system. In this case many bad things working together: level scaling, homogenized stat priority (e.g. everyone needs cooldown reduction, resource generation and vulernability) and having only 4 affixes to items.

 

[abija]

1. It's literally what happens in this game, yet you refuse to believe it/accept it.
2. Grim Dawn has the rares/uniques/legendaries that get upgrades in higher difficulties. (they actually copied a lot from GD, you're just too busy on hating to notice it)
3. The system is done so rares and their rolls are meaningful and you actually check the stats on rares/legendaries whole game.
4. Here we go again, same functionality, different type of item it's suddenly "barebones" because, guess what, it's not like D2.

 

[Saravan]

1. It's literally what happens in this game, yet you refuse to believe it/accept it.
2. Grim Dawn has the rares/uniques/legendaries that get upgrades in higher difficulties. (they actually copied a lot from GD, you're just too busy on hating to notice it)
3. The system is done so rares and their rolls are meaningful and you actually check the stats on rares/legendaries whole game.
4. Here we go again, same functionality, different type of item it's suddenly "barebones" because, guess what, it's not like D2.

I think we are done here, you seem to live in a reality that is objectively false to the game. Is this some stage 4 buyer's remorse or something?

 

[spectre]

Bye.

When it comes to entertainment, it's objectively better to have fun than not have fun.
I understand that you didn't and I'm not really trying to convince you that you should.

 

[KIss My Ass]

I thought shit was supposed to stop scaling in wt2 after you hit level 50. I'm level 51 so why are the strongholds still two levels higher than me? God I hate those fucking things. They are so cheap.

 

[Immortal]

Reminder that level 100 players needed help from level 10's to carry them as they were too weak to play the game anymore.. because they "leveled too fast".

11/10 game design.

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

One thing i dont get from this discussion, correct me if i am wrong - those guys leveled in a group, cba to even buy random vendor shit in the rat race to max level, fell behind the gear curve for what, 30 lvls or something and now cant play because killing mobs is teh hard due to shit gear?

Now if i was playing lets say Phoenix Point, and dicked around without upgrading my gear while time ticked on, then got my shit pushed from higher tier mobs and came here to complain you would rightfully call me a retard. How is that different from the D4 situation? Genuinely interested.

Now I am lvl 50 atm, just got my first paragon point, I try to upgrade my gear every 5 lvls or so on average, depends on what i find, had some nice unique drops too, dismantled some as well, and i am actually having a decent time.
Its not like i am reliving my youth again playing Diablo 1 and 2, but its...good?

You are comparing apples and oranges now. Look at my previous post where I explain how GOOD Diablo like design works.

No I am not, in the end its the same IMO.

 

[abija]

I think we are done here, you seem to live in a reality that is objectively false to the game. Is this some stage 4 buyer's remorse or something?

I think the game fails where it matters the most, that they have designers that pissed away amounts of art/programming/qa work small studios would only dream off.
That doesn't change the fact that you spew random irrelevant bullshit and invent issues where there aren't any (or take them from whatever streamer ).

 

[Saravan]

I think we are done here, you seem to live in a reality that is objectively false to the game. Is this some stage 4 buyer's remorse or something?

I think the game fails where it matters the most, that they have designers that pissed away amounts of art/programming/qa work small studios would only dream off.
That doesn't change the fact that you spew random irrelevant bullshit and invent issues where there aren't any (or take them from whatever streamer ).

Have to say, the most delusional take I heard all week is that "D4 copied a lot from Grim Dawn".