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Divinity Divinity: Original Sin - Enhanced Edition

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
That's less "having the freedom of choice taken away from the player" and more, dealing with the obvious consequences of your choices.
Except you are dealing with the consequence of a choice you didn't make.

The entire scenario can be handed in a couple of ways because the choices don't stop with the dice roll.
No, the choices stop with the dice roll. If you fail the minigame and the 2 guys become hostile, you have to kill them. Sure, you can kill your partner, larping as a good guy, but the 2 guys will be still hostile. Sure, you can flee the battle, but every time you are passing by, the 2 guys will attack you. Don't defend this shitty mechanic, there is no way it is anything other than a bad feature.
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
That fact that he de-lurked just to defend that piece of shit mechanic is amazing in itself.
 

J_C

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Wow, and this was his first post. I always wonder what is in the head of those people, who register to a site, and then don't post a thing. If I take the effort to register, I do it because I want to say something. Or maybe he just wanted to see the General Discussion threads, which would explain his first post.
 

Gord

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The whole thing is an obvious result of having a AI personality for your 2nd char, however.
It's not as if you have to use it, so I don't really get what the fuss is all about here. If you choose to use an AI personality, you will encounter situations where the outcome is not what you wanted, obviously. If you want to avoid such situations, don't use AI personalities (or use "loyal" AI). Problem solved.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
The whole thing is an obvious result of having a AI personality for your 2nd char, however.
It's not as if you have to use it, so I don't really get what the fuss is all about here. If you choose to use an AI personality, you will encounter situations where the outcome is not what you wanted, obviously. If you want to avoid such situations, don't use AI personalities (or use "loyal" AI). Problem solved.
Sure, but the truth is, I didn't mind that I could talk with my partner in certain situations. Sometimes we talked about something, and based on our opinions, we get different traits. And the trait system is good IMO. My problem is that a) you use this shitty RPS mechanic and b) sometimes the end result locked you out of quest.

So all I would like is to a) fix the RPS mechanics (scrap it), and b) keep the different AI personalities, but don't let them talk when there is a quest.

The funniest situation which I encountered was as follows: A thief at the market asked me if I think it would be OK to steal a fish. I said no, that's a bad thing, my partner said there is no harm in it. I lost the RPS, so the thief stole the fish. But he was caught, which started another conversation. Since previously my partner agreed with the theft, I thought I roll with it and agreed. But this time my partner was like "OMG stealing is a bad thing, how can you approve it" And at this point I was like: "YOU FUCKING BITCH, YOU STARTED THIS WHOLE THING BY ENCOURAGING THE THEFT"
 
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Mareus

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That's less "having the freedom of choice taken away from the player" and more, dealing with the obvious consequences of your choices.
Except you are dealing with the consequence of a choice you didn't make.

The entire scenario can be handed in a couple of ways because the choices don't stop with the dice roll.
No, the choices stop with the dice roll. If you fail the minigame and the 2 guys become hostile, you have to kill them. Sure, you can kill your partner, larping as a good guy, but the 2 guys will be still hostile. Sure, you can flee the battle, but every time you are passing by, the 2 guys will attack you. Don't defend this shitty mechanic, there is no way it is anything other than a bad feature.

Wanted to reply, since Rupuka obviously missed the point I was trying to make, but you pretty much nailed the problem. So thanks for that.

It really baffles me that there are people who still try to defend this shitty mechanic and its even more baffling that some people actually try to present it as a "true choice with consequence". My mind just boggles from these logical aerobatics.
 

Mareus

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The whole thing is an obvious result of having a AI personality for your 2nd char, however.
It's not as if you have to use it, so I don't really get what the fuss is all about here. If you choose to use an AI personality, you will encounter situations where the outcome is not what you wanted, obviously. If you want to avoid such situations, don't use AI personalities (or use "loyal" AI). Problem solved.

True. One does not need to use an AI personality, but then you are losing something that is already part of the game (just poorly implemented) and which can add so much to the whole roleplaying experience if fixed. Currently I am playing with AI off, and the result is that now I have two morally completely identical characters. Woopidoo!

I mean if the guy is just gonna nod his head to everything I do and say, then this AI feature is just wasted potential.
 

Gord

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Yeah, well, you can't have the cake and not eat it.

If anything, Larian implemented the AI a bit too thoroughly, I would say - obviously people like the concept, but only when it gives them an advantage (flavour, variation), not when it means some disadvantage (potentially losing out on quests, getting sub-par or undesired outcomes).
The original idea is simulating two-player coop - people might have dissenting views about how to approach certain situations. Most of the time that works quite well, imho, but admittedly there are some few situations where it doesn't (e.g. you can discuss with your buddy or tell him about some hint you found, which obviously doesn't work with the AI).
 

J_C

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If anything, Larian implemented the AI a bit too thoroughly, I would say - obviously people like the concept, but only when it gives them an advantage (flavour, variation), not when it means some disadvantage (potentially losing out on quests, getting sub-par or undesired outcomes).
True. This is why I proposed a fix which would be quite easy to implement. Keep the AI system as it is, just remove the conversations which can affect a quest outcome. I don't think we miss out much, and you would still have those conversations which are just about stuff in the world.
 
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For example, at the very beginning you find two drunkards that want to take you to some wizard. Let us say you want to roleplay a good character and you decide to not resist for obvious reasons. Well, your other character who is a rascal might interfere and protest. The problem becomes evident when this moral dilemma is resolved by a dice roll and you are forced to kill innocent people, something a good character would never do. The mark of good design is to have the freedom of choice.
I would argue that a more essential mark is having consequences; if a lot of choices lead to the same conclusion, they are meaningless, ergo outcomes are more important. And a big part of consequences is dealing with them.

Is easy to see the problem with someone who murders a quest giver and afterwards complains about not being able to do the quest, he wants to have his cake and eat it too. And similarly, wanting a heartless character without having to deal with any of the possible consequences of that, while pretending that some meaningless leadership debuff is somehow a fair tradeoff, is definitely not "roleplaying done right", is a system that makes the entire choice pointless.

If you concern is making the "good" character behave consistently then, good news, there is nothing forcing him to actually participate in the fight, you can left the two drunkards to the rascal, hell, if you are roleplaying as a self-righteous ass you can take your larping to the next level and have that character attack the other one. The entire scenario can be handed in a couple of ways because the choices don't stop with the dice roll. The only thing the game is "forcing" on you is making a violent character (personality that you picked) act violently (if you lose a dice roll or a minigame that is heavily affected by the social stat). That's less "having the freedom of choice taken away from the player" and more, dealing with the obvious consequences of your choices.

You can have your good character attack the other one, but the game's lack of support for that choice makes it poor design. You need more than consequences - you need the consequences to be sensibly supported. Strictly speaking, a game where any deviation from a linear lawful-good path results in a big fist entitled 'hand of developer god' coming down and insta-killing the player has both choice and consequences, but it's still railroading.

Sometimes at the Codex we try to reduce everything to 'form'. This leads to the above silliness - one would only cite the above as an illustration of C+C if one was willfully conflating form and content. Similarly, a game that allows you to play a good character only by killing your other character, with the whole game being designed around having 2 characters, has formal C+C in that regard, but has done nothing to make that form anything more than a husk.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
If anything, Larian implemented the AI a bit too thoroughly, I would say - obviously people like the concept, but only when it gives them an advantage (flavour, variation), not when it means some disadvantage (potentially losing out on quests, getting sub-par or undesired outcomes).
True. This is why I proposed a fix which would be quite easy to implement. Keep the AI system as it is, just remove the conversations which can affect a quest outcome. I don't think we miss out much, and you would still have those conversations which are just about stuff in the world.
So keep the ai personalities but make them completely irrelevant except for some flavor here and there.
Great idea, Larian, listen to these guys. :M

Yeah, well, you can't have the cake and not eat it.

:bravo:
I don't think you understood what he meant.

And why do you people bitch about these rock paper scissors minigames anyway, it's not like the game wasn't lulzy in the first place. If you want a true simulation of an AI personality, then deal with the fucking consequences. If not, then just choose the loyal one.
 
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J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
If anything, Larian implemented the AI a bit too thoroughly, I would say - obviously people like the concept, but only when it gives them an advantage (flavour, variation), not when it means some disadvantage (potentially losing out on quests, getting sub-par or undesired outcomes).
True. This is why I proposed a fix which would be quite easy to implement. Keep the AI system as it is, just remove the conversations which can affect a quest outcome. I don't think we miss out much, and you would still have those conversations which are just about stuff in the world.
So keep the ai personalities but make them completely irrelevant except for some flavor here and there.
Great idea, Larian, listen to these guys. :M
You just shut up if you don't know what you are talking about. There are dozens of conversations outside of quests, which affect the traits of your characters, so if you only strip out the quest affecting conversations, the personalities will still have a meaningful purpose.
 

J_C

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But that's not flavour. Flavour would be if it had no effect on the gameplay whatsoever, it would only affect the dialogue. But the quest affecting conversations are a minor part of the games (we only have around 6-7), so we wouldn't lose much.
 

Saduj

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Just finished my 1st playthrough and pretty much agree with Gregz rating/criticism. Game was fun so overall I give it high marks.

But the puzzles were mostly annoying. Solutions weren't really based on intuition or clues. Also the story is shit.

If they make a sequel, Jahan should be the lead antagonist. I liked him better than my Battle Mage/Wayfarer main characters. Although I always got a kick out of using Barrage on adjacent enemies.
 

Jezal_k23

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I agree about the FUCKING PUZZLES.
I actually thought the Source Temple was really well done considering it's one of the final areas of the game (I really enjoyed it), but dear fucking jesus the Immaculate Trial was such bullshit (mostly the 1st puzzle), among others.
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
But that's not flavour. Flavour would be if it had no effect on the gameplay whatsoever, it would only affect the dialogue. But the quest affecting conversations are a minor part of the games (we only have around 6-7), so we wouldn't lose much.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's not personality that gives flavor txt - it's just choice of voice.
Personality here strictly meant interfering with the quest resolutions.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
AFAIK, you can't. Sadly there are a couple quests in the game which can be broken like this. I've heard you can try doing this:

The skull is triggered not to tal kto you if the owner is around, even if you are in stealth. So, teleport the owner to a secluded spot (i.e. behind that big tree), then murder him.

This suggestion worked.

I feather falled the owner behind the large tree next to the stage. From there I killed him using telekinesis. No aggro. I was then able to interact with the head to complete the quest.

My reward was a chest with a couple of shit items @ level 6 even though I was level 13.
 

Stokowski

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False! You can have the cake and eat it. You just wont have it anymore.
jinx_portal_the-cake-is-a-lie.jpg
 

Zed

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Codex USB, 2014
Sounds like they're gearing up for that ultimate RPG:
Swen Vincke ‏@LarAtLarian 4m

We're going to be hiring narrative & system designers btw - anybody in Köln with experience who wants to try out Gent, send me a DM.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I thought D.OS is their ultimate RPG. :D
 
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