Divinity Divinity: Original Sin - Enhanced Edition

[SniperHF]

I know they didn't based on what their character creation screen looked like in the alpha (accurate assessment from someone who isn't me right here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...d-go-to-new-thread.88397/page-70#post-3022892). Additionally http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ut-the-alpha-here.72670/page-175#post-2926855

Furthermore, it's not just "older" elements, it's newer stuff too, like level requirements on weapons and MMO-style level gating that's also used in Witcher 3.

Probably worth adding that the weapon requirements used to be hard gated like Witcher 3. But IIRC it was the first big beta update that Larian switched over to soft gating. So a level 5 weapon used on a level 3 character has an AP cost penalty but you can still use it if you meet the attribute requirement. While it is rare, there are times when it's worth using higher level weapons at an AP penalty. Though in part the loot system prevents this from being more interesting.

I always wanted them to remove the level requirement entirely and use the actual weapon skill + attributes. Possibly even removing attribute requirements but that would have required some extra changes to the system since the weapon skills only realistically go up to 5.

Regarding going at Larian on what you call cargo cult design, the main target is the baked in level up bonuses and computation changes.

In the case of the (controllable) character system I really do think it was mostly their attempts at trying different things and using alpha testers as proper guinea pigs. Back in the alpha days you could directly trace large numbers of fan suggestions for systems to being implemented in the next patch. There were particularly radical changes in AP, Weapon requirements, and attribute effects on skills. Sometimes they'd switch back, sometimes they'd go a third direction. I think it would be a fair criticism to say they didn't have the a good plan for those things going in but did change them for the better based on feedback and did not stick to closely to what was established from past series entries. The big elephant in the room is the level up computations. If they can move away from level as a stat or at least diminish its impact the next game will be a lot better for it. The rest of the systems will immediately improve based on having greater impact.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Well there are better alternatives. I don't know anyone who 'enjoys' cooldowns other than perhaps MOBA addicts. Single player RPGs are no place for cooldowns IMO. People tolerate them and devs jump on that; it allows them to conveniently avoid finding more elegant solutions

Haven't you played ToME4?

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I played a much older version in the mid 90s I believe, before all the new stuff (or is it ADOM that has had an overhaul).

So I guess the answer is no. Does it have cooldowns or something or are you pointing to it as a good example of better implementation?

 

[SniperHF]

What you do is get 5 sneak, 5 lucky charm and sneak to Luculla forest at lvl 3-4. There you loot every chest and barrel to "lucky find" lvl ~15 items that have no requirements. For those that do have reqs you might be able craft +attribute amulets and stuff.

If you only kept the attribute requirement. I'm talking about tying the weapon abilities (one handed, two handed, bow, crossbow, etc) as a requirement or having it influence things more instead of just a % damage increase. You could possibly even remove attribute hard or soft requirements if you placed more emphasis on attributes for chance to hit than character level. Level 1 characters have a certain base chance to hit vs other level 1 characters assuming the same stats. Keep all stats the same but change that character to level 3 and all the sudden you can't hit it. Under the hood it calculates all these hit chances differently based purely on how much experience you have. That's stupid. Attributes modify this a little but not enough.

Maybe I'll cook up some examples of this in the editor to show what I mean.

If they placed more weight on the attribute and weapon skill side of the scale regarding chance to hit then completely removing level gating should be possible. But like I said I would also put more emphasis on the weapon skills rather than the weak flat damage increases they offer now. The most powerful use of your ability points right now is putting them into your warrior, scoundrel, ranger, and magic abilities which allow you to use more skills and give pretty huge bonuses both directly and in unlocking incredibly powerful talents. But the points cost the same as any other ability leaving a huge opportunity cost gap. The best way to both get rid of the dumb level as a stat and add more impact to character creation choices is to simply utilize what is already there. The weapon abilities.

Take a look at these talent unlocks from Man-at-arms:
1 Opportunist Gives you the ability to perform attacks of opportunity.
1 Thick Skin Gives you 5 extra base armour + Man-at-arms × 2.
2 Picture of Health Gives you 5% × Man-at-arms extra Vitality.
5 Sidewinder Removes your defense penalty when flanked.
5 Weather the Storm Gives you 5% × Man-at-arms extra Elemental Resistance.

In addition to the importance of more skill slots and reducing AP cost.


Single Handed gets you:
Each point increases damage by 10% when using Single-Handed Weapons.
Talent unlock: Anaconda Increases your damage with crushing weapons by 10%. Single-Handed 1

If you actually make those weapon abilities handle weapon requirements and positively influence chance to hit then you start to get some value out of those points.

Now all the sudden if you have more ways to influence your chance to hit through your own choices it gives tons more meaning to the act of making a character and leveling up.
I'm not so concerned about the balance, but this would even help fix that.

 

[Roguey]

While level does have too much of an impact on hit chances, each point of str/dex/int adds +3-4% to normal attacks and +5% to bodybuilding/willpower attacks (up to 150%) which is actually pretty good. By comparison, in D&D you get +5% every two points.

Like Josh Sawyer I'm not a fan of having too many inputs modify any one value.

Neither of those links supports what you're saying. At all.

1) Larian considers adding features because they existed in previous games and they sound cool, not necessarily because they'd be a great fit for the game they're making

2) Larian made the character system first, then they pared it down (but not near quite well enough) to fit the content they made. This is the opposite of how it should happen, see the link in my sig.

 

[Cosmo]

While level does have too much of an impact on hit chances, each point of str/dex/int adds +3-4% to normal attacks and +5% to bodybuilding/willpower attacks (up to 150%) which is actually pretty good. By comparison, in D&D you get +5% every two points.

Like Josh Sawyer I'm not a fan of having too many inputs modify any one value.

Neither of those links supports what you're saying. At all.

1) Larian considers adding features because they existed in previous games and they sound cool, not necessarily because they'd be a great fit for the game they're making

2) Larian made the character system first, then they pared it down (but not near quite well enough) to fit the content they made. This is the opposite of how it should happen, see the link in my sig.

You're right on the second point, but for the first i'd say it's been very clear from their very first what type of game they wanted to make, and that is a mix between Ultima 7 and Diablo, which is a perfect monster in its own right but not quite the haphazard piling you make it to be, even if it's almost equivalent to try and square the circle (add to that the 2 players mechanic of BD).
But they fumbled and fumbled and almost made it. Now i wish they hires hire someone with a keen eye for systemics, both in gameplay and storytelling/worldbuilding.

 

[Rake]

This is the opposite of how it should happen, see the link in my sig.

Until the design principles in your sig produce a good game (preferably RPG), you have no right to claim that this is what SHOULD happen

 

[Roguey]

Until the design principles in your sig produce a good game (preferably RPG), you have no right to claim that this is what SHOULD happen

Underrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrail

 

[Rake]

Until the design principles in your sig produce a good game (preferably RPG), you have no right to claim that this is what SHOULD happen

Underrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrail

I will play it when it is released. But i wasn't aware that it followed Sawyerian principles. The grognards of Codex seem to love the game...

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Until the design principles in your sig produce a good game (preferably RPG), you have no right to claim that this is what SHOULD happen

Underrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrail

Hey Styg Roguey says your are a Sawyerist.

 

[Lhynn]

Does it have cooldowns or something or are you pointing to it as a good example of better implementation?

Yup, resource management in that game is superbly made. And a lot of the fights in the randomly generated game with character creation are akin to puzzles. You should at least try it.

Free on their page

 

[Roguey]

I will play it when it is released. But i wasn't aware that it followed Sawyerian principles. The grognards of Codex seem to love the game...

Like D:OS it walks the golden path, but its character systems zig where D:OS zags. http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...le-on-early-access.69181/page-59#post-3537759

 

[whatevername]

Think this lvl 15 crossbow is useless at lvl 4 with 17 AP cost?

1 shot - 4 kills mazafaka

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Roguey]

That the AP cost applies to normal attacks but not special attacks is an obvious oversight.

 

[Arkeus]

MCa is going to Larian Right?

 

[SniperHF]

Picture of the console interface:

 

[catfood]

Who the fuck cares

 

[LESS T_T]

 

[Ninjerk]

but when will these fucks RELEASE it

 

[Watser]

Great, still awake by then

 

[Diablo169]

Oh awesome it's at an EU friendly time and thankfully doesn't clash with any of the other conferences.

 

[Jaesun]

This is now on.

 

[Jaesun]

New creature Blood Wasps.

 

[Jaesun]

Dual Wielding and wands added.