DOOM + DOOM II Rerelease by Nightdive Studios

[Saint_Proverbius]

Is the difficulty similar to that of Plutonia Experiment? That one's first level had several chaingunners, revenants and mancubi, and very little ammo on hard difficulty. If you didn't seriously conserve it, there was no way to beat the level.

I just went back to play Plutonia Experiment after years of not playing it, and I managed to get through the first map of Plutonia on the first attempt. I've been tinkering with GZDoom and Doom Runner, and managed to murder my save games in the process, so I haven't gotten back to Legacy of Rust's second map, but I've tossed myself at it seven times and have yet to get very far in it. It's not a matter of ammo management with the second map on Legacy of Rust, it's just a heck of an ambush at the start.

You're in a cavern-like area with little caves on the side, both ground level and elevated. You have shotgunners and imps in the ground level caves, and the new Lost Souls that shoot the fireballs in the elevated ones. Even when I make to through the ambush, I don't typically have enough health or knowledge to survive beyond that. There's also some pretty nasty traps beyond that ambush too, like a teleporter trap that puts you in a tiny room with about seven or so of those new Lost Souls.

I need to play through the first map again since I've lost that save, but I've been training my skills with the raven maps that Tim Willits made back in the day. By the way, I've also been trying those Doomworld Mega Project megawads, and those are a bitch compared to Plutonia.

 

[Semiurge]

Is the difficulty similar to that of Plutonia Experiment? That one's first level had several chaingunners, revenants and mancubi, and very little ammo on hard difficulty. If you didn't seriously conserve it, there was no way to beat the level.

I just went back to play Plutonia Experiment after years of not playing it, and I managed to get through the first map of Plutonia on the first attempt. I've been tinkering with GZDoom and Doom Runner, and managed to murder my save games in the process, so I haven't gotten back to Legacy of Rust's second map, but I've tossed myself at it seven times and have yet to get very far in it. It's not a matter of ammo management with the second map on Legacy of Rust, it's just a heck of an ambush at the start.

You're in a cavern-like area with little caves on the side, both ground level and elevated. You have shotgunners and imps in the ground level caves, and the new Lost Souls that shoot the fireballs in the elevated ones. Even when I make to through the ambush, I don't typically have enough health or knowledge to survive beyond that. There's also some pretty nasty traps beyond that ambush too, like a teleporter trap that puts you in a tiny room with about seven or so of those new Lost Souls.

I need to play through the first map again since I've lost that save, but I've been training my skills with the raven maps that Tim Willits made back in the day. By the way, I've also been trying those Doomworld Mega Project megawads, and those are a bitch compared to Plutonia.

In addition to what I posted - the revenants can be danced with if you need to maximise your damage output, but I never feel like taking the chances with them unless forced to, even 1 on 1. It seems like their melee zone is very small.

 

[NecroLord]

Is the difficulty similar to that of Plutonia Experiment? That one's first level had several chaingunners, revenants and mancubi, and very little ammo on hard difficulty. If you didn't seriously conserve it, there was no way to beat the level.

I just went back to play Plutonia Experiment after years of not playing it, and I managed to get through the first map of Plutonia on the first attempt. I've been tinkering with GZDoom and Doom Runner, and managed to murder my save games in the process, so I haven't gotten back to Legacy of Rust's second map, but I've tossed myself at it seven times and have yet to get very far in it. It's not a matter of ammo management with the second map on Legacy of Rust, it's just a heck of an ambush at the start.

You're in a cavern-like area with little caves on the side, both ground level and elevated. You have shotgunners and imps in the ground level caves, and the new Lost Souls that shoot the fireballs in the elevated ones. Even when I make to through the ambush, I don't typically have enough health or knowledge to survive beyond that. There's also some pretty nasty traps beyond that ambush too, like a teleporter trap that puts you in a tiny room with about seven or so of those new Lost Souls.

I need to play through the first map again since I've lost that save, but I've been training my skills with the raven maps that Tim Willits made back in the day. By the way, I've also been trying those Doomworld Mega Project megawads, and those are a bitch compared to Plutonia.

Ah, Plutonia...
Revenants.
Revenants everywhere.
And chaingunners.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Ah, Plutonia...
Revenants.
Revenants everywhere.
And chaingunners.

If you want an idea of what Xaser(one of the guys that worked on Legacy of Rust) would do if he made Plutonia, there's Plutonia Revisited Community Project. It uses the plutonia.wad as the base game instead of doom2.wad, has a lot of the feel of Plutonia, and the difficulty is a little ramped up from Plutonia. He did MAP15 and MAP24. He also did the music for MAP15.

This track from the second stage in Legacy of Rust is absolutely banging.

He did all the music on Legacy of Rust.

 

[Semiurge]

Is the difficulty similar to that of Plutonia Experiment? That one's first level had several chaingunners, revenants and mancubi, and very little ammo on hard difficulty. If you didn't seriously conserve it, there was no way to beat the level.

I just went back to play Plutonia Experiment after years of not playing it, and I managed to get through the first map of Plutonia on the first attempt. I've been tinkering with GZDoom and Doom Runner, and managed to murder my save games in the process, so I haven't gotten back to Legacy of Rust's second map, but I've tossed myself at it seven times and have yet to get very far in it. It's not a matter of ammo management with the second map on Legacy of Rust, it's just a heck of an ambush at the start.

You're in a cavern-like area with little caves on the side, both ground level and elevated. You have shotgunners and imps in the ground level caves, and the new Lost Souls that shoot the fireballs in the elevated ones. Even when I make to through the ambush, I don't typically have enough health or knowledge to survive beyond that. There's also some pretty nasty traps beyond that ambush too, like a teleporter trap that puts you in a tiny room with about seven or so of those new Lost Souls.

I need to play through the first map again since I've lost that save, but I've been training my skills with the raven maps that Tim Willits made back in the day. By the way, I've also been trying those Doomworld Mega Project megawads, and those are a bitch compared to Plutonia.

Ah, Plutonia...
Revenants.
Revenants everywhere.
And chaingunners.

And arch-viles hidden inside pillars with chaingunners right on top of them.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Revenants.
Revenants everywhere.

I just ran across this video, which reminded me of NecroLord 's reply here. Plus it made me laugh in the first 10 seconds.

 

[NecroLord]

Is the difficulty similar to that of Plutonia Experiment? That one's first level had several chaingunners, revenants and mancubi, and very little ammo on hard difficulty. If you didn't seriously conserve it, there was no way to beat the level.

I just went back to play Plutonia Experiment after years of not playing it, and I managed to get through the first map of Plutonia on the first attempt. I've been tinkering with GZDoom and Doom Runner, and managed to murder my save games in the process, so I haven't gotten back to Legacy of Rust's second map, but I've tossed myself at it seven times and have yet to get very far in it. It's not a matter of ammo management with the second map on Legacy of Rust, it's just a heck of an ambush at the start.

You're in a cavern-like area with little caves on the side, both ground level and elevated. You have shotgunners and imps in the ground level caves, and the new Lost Souls that shoot the fireballs in the elevated ones. Even when I make to through the ambush, I don't typically have enough health or knowledge to survive beyond that. There's also some pretty nasty traps beyond that ambush too, like a teleporter trap that puts you in a tiny room with about seven or so of those new Lost Souls.

I need to play through the first map again since I've lost that save, but I've been training my skills with the raven maps that Tim Willits made back in the day. By the way, I've also been trying those Doomworld Mega Project megawads, and those are a bitch compared to Plutonia.

Ah, Plutonia...
Revenants.
Revenants everywhere.
And chaingunners.

And arch-viles hidden inside pillars with chaingunners right on top of them.

I like how every self respecting hardcore Doom 2 WAD under the sun has to include hordes of arch-viles and revenants.
It's a tradition really.
You just have to include as many as you can.

 

[Valestein]

Is it me or is it all too easy to literally run out of ammo in some maps of Legacy of Rust?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I like how every self respecting hardcore Doom 2 WAD under the sun has to include hordes of arch-viles and revenants.
It's a tradition really.

Map makers figured out pretty early on that Revenants were one of the bigger threats in the game and they're very versatile. They're fast, they have a good melee attack, can't be taken down in one shot from anything short of a BFG9000, and they have a chance for having homing rockets. You can put them anywhere in any map and they're going to be a threat. Mancubus is probably something you wouldn't put in a tight room unless you're a dickhead. Cacodemons are fantastic for large rooms with tall ceilings so they can pop out of holes near the top, but they move slow and are taken out easily. Pain elementals are similar, but spawn Lost Souls and since no monster and player can occupy the same X and Y location, it's not a great idea to put in a bunch of these things. The Arachnotrons are fun, but they also need a lot of room to get around. Another thing is that most of the fodder enemies are all hit scanners with the exception of the Imps. This was great for the time when you were hoping someone could play Doom on a higher end 386 and having a bunch of projectiles flying around would choke those old processors. Now though, people tend to detest hit scanners and only seem to accept most of them because you can easily take them out with a few pistol shots or one shotgun blast from a distance. That's probably one reason why you don't see a lot of Spider Masterminds. That's one reason why I don't mind Hell Knights and Barons of Hell, since they're basically super Imps. They also have a decent wind up on their ranged attack, which gives you plenty of time to dodge.

Arch Viles are just shitheads.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Digital Foundry checks in.



Also, here's a breakdown of the critters in Legacy of Rust. Also, the son of a bitch played through Legacy of Rust with Pistol Start on Ultra-Violence. He also mentions that the new Kex engine has some input lag, possibly on just keyboard and mouse, that no other Doom engine has had before. So, you might want to play it in GZDoom. I don't really have a choice about playing on GZDoom, since I don't have anything that runs Windows 10 or Windows 11.

 

[Pathfinder: Kingmaker]

Dooms play pretty well on nintendo switch, and this collection is an improvement other original ports due to new campaign, but I still prefer doom 64 port to this.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Dooms play pretty well on nintendo switch

I snagged the Switch version, but haven't played it yet. I'm kind of waiting for Bethesda/id Software/Nightdive to make an Android version as well. The main appeal to me would be file browser, but I think you need a Bethesda account for that?

but I still prefer doom 64 port to this.

I ran across this the other day:

https://www.gamebrew.org/wiki/Doom64_DS

Kind of funny that there isn't a native 3DS version of Doom 64, but there's a DS port.

 

[Valestein]

I'd be cool if someone made remixed versions of Doom 1 and/or 2 with the new critters and weapons. Hell, i'd like someone to make the nightmare imps and mother demon from '64 for them too along with the unmaker.

 

[NecroLord]

I like how every self respecting hardcore Doom 2 WAD under the sun has to include hordes of arch-viles and revenants.
It's a tradition really.

Map makers figured out pretty early on that Revenants were one of the bigger threats in the game and they're very versatile. They're fast, they have a good melee attack, can't be taken down in one shot from anything short of a BFG9000, and they have a chance for having homing rockets. You can put them anywhere in any map and they're going to be a threat. Mancubus is probably something you wouldn't put in a tight room unless you're a dickhead. Cacodemons are fantastic for large rooms with tall ceilings so they can pop out of holes near the top, but they move slow and are taken out easily. Pain elementals are similar, but spawn Lost Souls and since no monster and player can occupy the same X and Y location, it's not a great idea to put in a bunch of these things. The Arachnotrons are fun, but they also need a lot of room to get around. Another thing is that most of the fodder enemies are all hit scanners with the exception of the Imps. This was great for the time when you were hoping someone could play Doom on a higher end 386 and having a bunch of projectiles flying around would choke those old processors. Now though, people tend to detest hit scanners and only seem to accept most of them because you can easily take them out with a few pistol shots or one shotgun blast from a distance. That's probably one reason why you don't see a lot of Spider Masterminds. That's one reason why I don't mind Hell Knights and Barons of Hell, since they're basically super Imps. They also have a decent wind up on their ranged attack, which gives you plenty of time to dodge.

Arch Viles are just shitheads.

Chaingunners are another major threat, especially in squads.
That hitscan is brutal.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Chaingunners are another major threat, especially in squads.

Chaingunners make for great pop up gotchas for the player. Flip a switch, drop a wall with a couple of chaingunners behind them, and it's like the Doom equivalent of a jump scare. It does the job of getting a reaction from the player, but it's also cheap and gimmicky to the point any idiot can do this when map making. It's not so bad if you limit the amount of times you pull something like this, and have some restraint on how many chaingunners you use in this, but I've seen this thing over done a lot. Honestly, traps like this are much better with something like Imps or Hell Knights since computers can handle that many things moving around at one time.

Here's another interview with a Bethesda community manager and Mike Rubits from id Software.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Map makers figured out pretty early on that Revenants were one of the bigger threats in the game and they're very versatile.

I haven't played Vanilla Doom in so long that it feels like a distant memory. So my baseline comparison of Doom has been Brutal Doom for the longest time.

(I know, not the most sensible thing.)

But how Brutal Doom handles Revenants adds depth to what you're saying.

In BD Revenants are easily the most versatile monster, with the most new gimmicks attached to it and in-built resistances to most weapons, to the point that there is no easy way to deal with them save for the BFG.

All monsters in BD have multiple hitboxes, especially for the head. Hit that and you do extra damage. Hit that hard enough and most monsters go down in a single shot. Revenants are no exception, but what's a bother with Revenants is that if you're standing too close to a Revenant when you try a headshot (like with a shotgun) you'll hit the chest instead, which is another hitbox with different properties. Hitting a Revenant in the chest in BD can result in a split, where the upper torso still lives, but moves slower and can't punch.

BD Revenants actually go down if hit with a single rocket, but the downside there is that Revenants are more 'agile' and thus harder to hit with rockets, even if they're standing on those single-square pillars. This takes into account the fact that BD rockets travel faster than vanilla rockets.

Finally, a reliable but time-consuming method to kill Revenants in BD is to use the assault rifle to snipe them in the head from a distance, hoping you stunlock them long enough to get all the damage in needed to kill them. That's not always a viable option and very unDoom-like, but there you go.

 

[Fedora Master]

Neither wanted nor needed. Nightdive is turning into Beamdog.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I like how every self respecting hardcore Doom 2 WAD under the sun has to include hordes of arch-viles and revenants.
It's a tradition really.

Map makers figured out pretty early on that Revenants were one of the bigger threats in the game and they're very versatile. They're fast, they have a good melee attack, can't be taken down in one shot from anything short of a BFG9000, and they have a chance for having homing rockets. You can put them anywhere in any map and they're going to be a threat. Mancubus is probably something you wouldn't put in a tight room unless you're a dickhead. Cacodemons are fantastic for large rooms with tall ceilings so they can pop out of holes near the top, but they move slow and are taken out easily. Pain elementals are similar, but spawn Lost Souls and since no monster and player can occupy the same X and Y location, it's not a great idea to put in a bunch of these things. The Arachnotrons are fun, but they also need a lot of room to get around. Another thing is that most of the fodder enemies are all hit scanners with the exception of the Imps. This was great for the time when you were hoping someone could play Doom on a higher end 386 and having a bunch of projectiles flying around would choke those old processors. Now though, people tend to detest hit scanners and only seem to accept most of them because you can easily take them out with a few pistol shots or one shotgun blast from a distance. That's probably one reason why you don't see a lot of Spider Masterminds. That's one reason why I don't mind Hell Knights and Barons of Hell, since they're basically super Imps. They also have a decent wind up on their ranged attack, which gives you plenty of time to dodge.

Arch Viles are just shitheads.

Once you're good at doom there's only 3 threats in the game.

Archviles - Goes without saying
Hit scanners - See above
Revenants - AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


You can't spam archviles because they're not a danger on their own and you have to build maps carefully to include cover so they go out the window as a spammable enemy

Hit scanners are a major threat but you have a limited number of those because random free damage isn't fun and Blood shows you what too many hitscanners is like and it's boring because of it.

Revvies don't auto hurt you and don't need special maps to stop them auto hurting you so they're the only enemy that poses a fair threat. So it's Revvie spam all the way. It's easier than thinking in 3D and making enemies attack from multiple sides where space control is difficult and it's still creating an almost identical threat to doing so.

I hope Sobad gets cancer. He's fucking annoying with his stupid zoomer editing. If you want to teach people about doom you don't need a green screen and poorly timed jokes with your autistic manchild face zooming around the screen. Just show us the DOOM.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

So my baseline comparison of Doom has been Brutal Doom for the longest time.

I've got a stupid question, but does Brutal Doom work with Voxel Doom? It looks like a blast, pardon the pun, but I'm really not willing to give up my voxels. I have played Brutal Doom 64, but I have yet to play it with Doom or Doom II because of the voxel thing, which obviously doesn't work with Doom 64 because of the different sprites.

Hitting a Revenant in the chest in BD can result in a split, where the upper torso still lives, but moves slower and can't punch.

Okay, that's pretty awesome.

Nightdive is turning into Beamdog.

Beamdog knows how to make Android and Linux ports. They're just too stupid to include controller code in to all their ports.

Once you're good at doom there's only 3 threats in the game.

I was playing through Plutonia the other day, and on the first map, there's some great map work that makes the Mancubus a threat. You're on a cross shaped walkway, which leads to a fairly decently long hallway and a room with a Mancubus. So, you can't really dodge the fireballs. Early in the game, so no rocket launcher or plasma gun, so you're stuck with chaingunning it and hoping the pain state keeps it from shooting. I'm not sure that was the intention of the design, but the problem is that it negates any player skill other than picking the right weapon. The rest is RNG luck.

I hope Sobad gets cancer. He's fucking annoying with his stupid zoomer editing. If you want to teach people about doom you don't need a green screen and poorly timed jokes with your autistic manchild face zooming around the screen. Just show us the DOOM.

I think my big criticism would be that stuff seems to get in the way of him releasing content. He's only got that video about the Revenants and Monster Priority. Both have some good information, but those videos were made almost a year ago.

 

[NecroLord]

I like how every self respecting hardcore Doom 2 WAD under the sun has to include hordes of arch-viles and revenants.
It's a tradition really.

Map makers figured out pretty early on that Revenants were one of the bigger threats in the game and they're very versatile. They're fast, they have a good melee attack, can't be taken down in one shot from anything short of a BFG9000, and they have a chance for having homing rockets. You can put them anywhere in any map and they're going to be a threat. Mancubus is probably something you wouldn't put in a tight room unless you're a dickhead. Cacodemons are fantastic for large rooms with tall ceilings so they can pop out of holes near the top, but they move slow and are taken out easily. Pain elementals are similar, but spawn Lost Souls and since no monster and player can occupy the same X and Y location, it's not a great idea to put in a bunch of these things. The Arachnotrons are fun, but they also need a lot of room to get around. Another thing is that most of the fodder enemies are all hit scanners with the exception of the Imps. This was great for the time when you were hoping someone could play Doom on a higher end 386 and having a bunch of projectiles flying around would choke those old processors. Now though, people tend to detest hit scanners and only seem to accept most of them because you can easily take them out with a few pistol shots or one shotgun blast from a distance. That's probably one reason why you don't see a lot of Spider Masterminds. That's one reason why I don't mind Hell Knights and Barons of Hell, since they're basically super Imps. They also have a decent wind up on their ranged attack, which gives you plenty of time to dodge.

Arch Viles are just shitheads.

Once you're good at doom there's only 3 threats in the game.

Archviles - Goes without saying
Hit scanners - See above
Revenants - AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


You can't spam archviles because they're not a danger on their own and you have to build maps carefully to include cover so they go out the window as a spammable enemy

Hit scanners are a major threat but you have a limited number of those because random free damage isn't fun and Blood shows you what too many hitscanners is like and it's boring because of it.

Revvies don't auto hurt you and don't need special maps to stop them auto hurting you so they're the only enemy that poses a fair threat. So it's Revvie spam all the way. It's easier than thinking in 3D and making enemies attack from multiple sides where space control is difficult and it's still creating an almost identical threat to doing so.

I hope Sobad gets cancer. He's fucking annoying with his stupid zoomer editing. If you want to teach people about doom you don't need a green screen and poorly timed jokes with your autistic manchild face zooming around the screen. Just show us the DOOM.

Cyberdemons can also be really nasty if used and placed effectively on maps.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Cyberdemons can also be really nasty if used and placed effectively on maps.

Unless the room is too small to avoid splash damage a cyberdemon isn't any more nasty than an Imp. A mancubus offers more danger because it's firing pattern is different.

 

[ferratilis]

Does anyone know what soundfont this rerelease is using? I've loaded Valiant and the music sounds like nothing I've heard before. It sounds a lot different compared to all the other source ports, the difference is jarring.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Unless the room is too small to avoid splash damage a cyberdemon isn't any more nasty than an Imp.

Thank goodness they don't shoot at the ground near the player. That would make them awful. Cyberdemons also shoot more often than imps and the rockets are much faster.

Does anyone know what soundfont this rerelease is using? I've loaded Valiant and the music sounds like nothing I've heard before.

I believe there's multiple ones and they're in the options menu. I don't know for sure, since I haven't fired it up on the Switch yet, and none of my computers will run the new Kex engine Doom port. Well, I can probably get it running with WINE, but I already have GZDoom working on the linux box(which was honestly more difficult than it should have been since I wanted controller support enabled and Doom Runner has no option for the flatpak sandbox).

 

[deuxhero]

Steam (and GOG apparently) unlisted Doom II that had not such a horrific license crap attached.
This is shit.

I could get Doom I "for free" now because only because I got Doom II there before they gave me this.
But with this shitty license/terms I won't.

What about the license?