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DOOM Eternal - the sequel to the 2016 reboot - now with The Ancient Gods DLC

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,920
The game's difficulty shitting down people's throats has me intrigued. Has that Denuvo program had any effect on FPS? I try to avoid games with it and saw they put it on this one for who knows what reason - seriously, what fucking scam is Denuvo running? Are they a money laundering company? That shit doesn't work at all and yet companies keep using them.
 

Seethe

Prophet
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
1,000
The platforming in this game is shockingly bad. Too much of it, too many areas that look accessible are inaccessible. Too many gimmicks with the enemy weaknesses ruins the incentive to use various weapons on all enemies. Oh, I see a cacodemon. Oh, should I shoot it with with my shotgun? No. Should I shoot it with the plasma rifle? Nope. I will lobe a MOBA ability grenade in its mouth to trigger an instant gory kill. Over, and over, and over again.
 

Bigg Boss

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
7,528
No, you are just some old fuck that can't get over how hardcore and badass this game is. Git gud loser. Doom 1 and 2 didn't even have jumping or mouse look.

iu
 

Seethe

Prophet
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
1,000
By the way, I see some "git gud" types in this thread regarding people complaining ammo scarcity. It's not that I run out of ammo completely, to shoot at enemies. It's that the ammo count was intentionally designed to be low so you can chainsaw an enemy interrupts the flow of battle. Not sure how many people who did not play the game know this, but the game is designed for you to run out of ammo, and once you run out of ammo on all of your weapons, the game AUTOMATICALLY equips the chainsaw in your hands, and sends you to kill a zombie or imp in order to gain your ammo back for all your weapons. You cannot even equip the chainsaw otherwise, it's a button prompt normally.

So no, ammo is available quite often. But the means to acquire it, and the interruption it causes is annoying, frustrating, stupid, and makes me run around the battle like a headless chicken with a chainsaw, to use the one charge I always have on a zombie. What a heap of trash. Why does this shit have 89% score on Steam?
 

Belegarsson

Think about hairy dwarfs all the time ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Patron
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
1,261
Location
Uwotopia
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Dev's intention: make player utilize every tool of disposal available, nothing goes to waste.

Result: a combat loop that's trite and predictable, you feel gimped more than powerful enemies pounding your ass.

There's something inherently wrong about a shooter, a genre that often let you express yourself through gameplay, where you have to force players to do this and do that. If there's an underpowered gun or underused tool, the worst balance method you can do is nerfing every other aspect so player is forced to use them. I completed a few levels of Dusk with just the crossbow and I did run out of ammo often, but the game allowed me to do that and I never felt punished for using just it.

What the hell is wrong with just using your favorite guns? In the case of Dusk, I happen to like everything the game threw at me, even the dual pistols have their place, even the sickle is useful for its deflection (thanks Mandalore). That game has no filler, no gimmick aside from the cigarette, every gun is useful while not being tied to this and to that, and it's completely fine. I fucking despise limitations in fast paced FPS, Wolfenstein Youngblood did this shit where these guns are only effective towards these enemies due to their arbitrary armor type, and it was hell to play because that kind of design is tiresome and lazy as fuck.

I actually loved, not like, loved Doom 2016, because you don't often get this type of high mobility shooter in high production value these days, even if it dragged towards the end. This one, I installed crack and completed the 4th mission just to see if I'm blowing shit out of proportion, but no, the more I play, the more I hate it. This is what happens when a developer gave themselves no constraint, you get a bloated, unfocused, limited mess that seemingly exists for the RIP AND TEAR memes, not to expand greatness and attempt to fix the weaknesses before.
 
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Pika-Cthulhu

Arcane
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
8,315
Needs more money printer meme

Zoomerkid representing conSOOM eternal: NO!!! YOU CANT JUST IGNORE ALL THE MECHANICS WE PUT IN TO ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE GAMEPLAY AND PAPER OVER POOR DESIGN DUE TO CONSOLE LIMITATIONS!!!!! YOU CANT JUST SHOOT EVERYTHING IN THE FACE UNTIL IT STOPS MOVING WHILE YOU AVOID TAKING DAMAGE BY RUNNING 500 MPH!!!!! YOU ARE DESTROYING THE CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE!!!!!

Boomer Doomguy: Haha, demonspeedbumps go squish *note, add wavy speed lines to denote increased velocity*
 

Israfael

Arcane
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
3,870
Played this a bit, not sure if it's right to call this a "Doom" game, but it's at least challenging and very optimized (120-150+ fps on my 2 years old vega card at full max setttings). Only thing I can say for sure, people who cried that the classic gaems were bright and nudooms were brown and dark got what they wanted :lol:
CONSOLE LIMITATIONS!
Not even sure how you can play this on console, it's breakneckingly fast on nightmare, especially those challenge things. Also, it's very convoluted with like 5 cooldowns at level 3 already (and I actually needed most of them to survive, especially if there's more than one medium sized mob in the crowd)
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,607
Location
Bulgaria
By the way, I see some "git gud" types in this thread regarding people complaining ammo scarcity. It's not that I run out of ammo completely, to shoot at enemies. It's that the ammo count was intentionally designed to be low so you can chainsaw an enemy interrupts the flow of battle. Not sure how many people who did not play the game know this, but the game is designed for you to run out of ammo, and once you run out of ammo on all of your weapons, the game AUTOMATICALLY equips the chainsaw in your hands, and sends you to kill a zombie or imp in order to gain your ammo back for all your weapons. You cannot even equip the chainsaw otherwise, it's a button prompt normally.

So no, ammo is available quite often. But the means to acquire it, and the interruption it causes is annoying, frustrating, stupid, and makes me run around the battle like a headless chicken with a chainsaw, to use the one charge I always have on a zombie. What a heap of trash. Why does this shit have 89% score on Steam?
And on top of that there are enemies that could be killed only by certain weapons . So you have to shoot it till you run out of ammo,then go chainsaw the teleported zombie and repeat it all over again.
 

Sreggin Etah I

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
699
People saying the orginal Doom was edgy too, it was because of the demon stuff, not because of the gore and loud metal,just listen to some of the original Doom tracks:


Elevator music, lol



Now, DOOM 2016:



Pure edginess and tryhard heavy metal that sounds all the same.

Original doom feel was suspense,goofy and metal mixed.The Doom 64 and Doom 3 horror stuff has more to do with the psx version:



So, what happened ? in my opinion brutal doom happened,The all over the top gore,Metal,edginess,glory kills...



So, Brutal Doom releases,become extremely popular to the point where is triggering the Doom modding community, then, some years later we get a Doom reboot,coincidence ?

I'm not saying that the new Doom is bad,i'm just saying that it's very different from Doom 1 and 2.
 
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Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
The game's difficulty shitting down people's throats has me intrigued. Has that Denuvo program had any effect on FPS? I try to avoid games with it and saw they put it on this one for who knows what reason - seriously, what fucking scam is Denuvo running? Are they a money laundering company? That shit doesn't work at all and yet companies keep using them.

It should affect people in edge cases when your system can just run the game fine normally but is dangerously close to a CPU bottleneck iirc?

The difficulty is really weird for me so far. nightmare was awkward at first, then I ran into 2 arenas which were incredibly tough where enemies would melt me in 1-2 sec of visual exposure... Until suddenly they didn't anymore.
Past those 2 areas I'm now having no real trouble. No idea what that was about, random A.I. crap I guess. Wrote about it a page or two ago.

It's weird... Anyway, on nightmare in the more difficult arenas you basically dash/bunnyhop around the arena mostly trying to get away from enemies (unless you can corner one or a few big ones) while taking potshots at whatever happens to come into view, spinning your view around constantly and weapon switching about once a second while glory-killing to finish certain enemies faster and always hitting flamer+chainsaw together to get ammo and armor.

Problem is that that's it for the combat.

Bosses are sometimes a bit different and ambient spawns in-between arenas have zero difficulty, but 90% of arenas are ultimately very same-ish no matter what you're facing.
You lack the running speed to really get in there an fight the horde head on and dodge stuff normally like in most oldschool shooters, instead you have a dash and it's on cooldown although you can get upgrade bullshit to speed up the cooldown (then you can face enemies a bit more). Thus the constant zipping around the arena like an absolute spazz instead.

It's frantic, spazzy, tiresome and obnoxious to me with no long-term strategy or effects whatsoever, but your mileage may vary. Definitely not a refinement or upgrade of the older shooter mechanics, more like a bizarre mish mash of AAA trends coupled with console action game awesome button shit and very uneven difficulty.

Definitely not easy in general though, so there's that. I liked Blood's difficulty much better, though, for comparison.
 

Ezeekiel

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Messages
1,783
So, what happened ? in my opinion brutal doom happened,The all over the top gore,Metal,edginess,glory kills...



So, Brutal Doom releases,become extremely popular to the point where is triggering the Doom modding community, then, some years later we get a Doom reboot,coincidence ?

I'm not saying that the new Doom is bad,i'm just saying that it's very different from Doom 1 and 2.

If only Doom Eternal took more inspiration from the BD gameplay design instead...
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,364
Oh, I see a cacodemon. Oh, should I shoot it with with my shotgun? No. Should I shoot it with the plasma rifle? Nope. I will lobe a MOBA ability grenade in its mouth to trigger an instant gory kill. Over, and over, and over again.
Maybe try a better example since you can use the shotgun to trigger the instant glory kill.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,593
Oh, I see a cacodemon. Oh, should I shoot it with with my shotgun? No. Should I shoot it with the plasma rifle? Nope. I will lobe a MOBA ability grenade in its mouth to trigger an instant gory kill. Over, and over, and over again.
Maybe try a better example since you can use the shotgun to trigger the instant glory kill.

:hmmm:
 

lightbane

Arcane
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
10,631
BEST FPS EVER ! BEST FPS EVER !! BEST FPS EVER !!!!!

Wow, that video encapsulates everything wrong with the game: Using retarded memes from the comic seriously, WoW-esque art style, annoying and bland music, tutorials that explicitly tell you how to defeat the boss, low ammo count that is "solved" by literally spawning zombies as walking ammo containers, the super-annoying red filter when you're low on health AND annoying heartbeat sounds to boot, try-hard story...
Truly an AAA game.


If only Doom Eternal took more inspiration from the BD gameplay design instead...

Yep, they used BD as an excuse for the lazy decision to spam finisher moves and so on, not bothering to check how BD actually works, for not to mention that fatality moves are optional in BD.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,364
Oh, I see a cacodemon. Oh, should I shoot it with with my shotgun? No. Should I shoot it with the plasma rifle? Nope. I will lobe a MOBA ability grenade in its mouth to trigger an instant gory kill. Over, and over, and over again.
Maybe try a better example since you can use the shotgun to trigger the instant glory kill.

:hmmm:

Bitch I was complaining about glory kills long before you played doom16. And guess what, I was right, they doubled down on the retard shit.
Still, he complains about having to use a certain weapon when at least another one does the same thing.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
So no, ammo is available quite often. But the means to acquire it, and the interruption it causes is annoying, frustrating, stupid, and makes me run around the battle like a headless chicken with a chainsaw, to use the one charge I always have on a zombie. What a heap of trash. Why does this shit have 89% score on Steam?
If you didn't have to rely on the Chainsaw on ammo, you'd have to rely on picking up ammo items in the arena. Which, much like the chainsaw, would force you to disengage from combat and ignore all enemies to find that ammo you really need. The problem is that the circularity of the arenas do not make it immediately obvious where all the ammo is, meaning it would add a layer of trial and error memorization where you die a few times so you can learn where all the ammo is and plan your route around that (and getting rid of arenas as a whole is not an option here). So instead of forcing you to use the Chainsaw, it would force you to hang around these specific parts of the arena where all the ammo is. Meanwhile the benefit of giving your ammo two legs and having it walk towards you is that you do not have to spend as much time trying to find it, as the game routinely spawns fodder enemies as long as heavy demons are still alive. Paradoxically, on average you'd spend less time looking for zombies to chainsaw than looking for ammo items.

And consider the low ammo cap; if the Chainsaw didn't exist, you'd instead be complaining how you have to constantly run around the arena looking for item pick-ups because of how frequently you're out of bullets. Of course you could increase the ammo cap, but that would make it suffer the same problem as nuDoom did where you could just use two weapons for the entire game since you had ammo for days, as you turn your brain off and then call the game boring because it doesn't make you use your brain.

Dev's intention: make player utilize every tool of disposal available, nothing goes to waste.

Result: a combat loop that's trite and predictable, you feel gimped more than powerful enemies pounding your ass.

There's something inherently wrong about a shooter, a genre that often let you express yourself through gameplay, where you have to force players to do this and do that. If there's an underpowered gun or underused tool, the worst balance method you can do is nerfing every other aspect so player is forced to use them. I completed a few levels of Dusk with just the crossbow and I did run out of ammo often, but the game allowed me to do that and I never felt punished for using just it.

What the hell is wrong with just using your favorite guns? In the case of Dusk, I happen to like everything the game threw at me, even the dual pistols have their place, even the sickle is useful for its deflection (thanks Mandalore). That game has no filler, no gimmick aside from the cigarette, every gun is useful while not being tied to this and to that, and it's completely fine. I fucking despise limitations in fast paced FPS, Wolfenstein Youngblood did this shit where these guns are only effective towards these enemies due to their arbitrary armor type, and it was hell to play because that kind of design is tiresome and lazy as fuck.
The idea of "freedom of player expression" more often than not translates to "please let me stick to this one playstyle for the whole game that completely breaks the game but nonetheless lets me live out my power fantasy". And even when you do offer tons of player expression, the average player will more often than not default to the path of least resistance because it works and lets them win the game, no matter how boring said playstyle is. Case in point: Vanquish would let you do a tons of cool shit and is likely the TPS with the single greatest amount of player expression out there, but 70% of players nonetheless played it like a generic cover shooter because a) they had no incentive to do any of the cool shit, b) trying to do cool shit got them killed too often as doing cool shit requires that you're actually good at the game, and c) playing the game like a boring cover shooter lets them progress through the game just fine. nuDoom suffered from the same shit where it didn't really force your weapon usage in a particular way, which then ended up making the game completely repetitive as you had no reason to change your playstyle at any point.

What Eternal managed to do is make using all of your tools essential for survival, instead of games like Devil May Cry where despite all your given tools and the creative focus of the game there's always some kind of exploit that lets you kill enemies more efficiently than others. If you don't learn to use all your tools and stick to your favourite gun like a stubborn mule, you will simply die. The underlying idea here is that not being able to use your favourite weapon for the whole game makes you think about what to do next, which in turn drives player engagement and gives you more shit to get better at. It's not like the game is a puzzle now where you have to move and kill exactly like this if you want to survive either. The skill floor has now been raised so you're expected to be more competent at a baseline level and utilize all your given tools, but once you do there's plenty of player expression to be had. Just look at the shit the grappling hook lets you do:



The only difference is that you now have to actually work to be able to express yourself, whereas if you want to stick to your favorite weapons for the whole game you either have to swallow your pride and turn down the difficulty, or go play another game.

Weapon-specific weaknesses/resistances are one way of getting the players to play in a more interesting way. For example, in Quake the Shambler has an arbitrary resistance against explosives, because without it you'd just play popamole with the rocket/grenade launcher, so instead you're forced to use either the super shotty or super nailgun to kill it while staying in the open or doing the Shambler Dance, which is a lot more interesting than playing rocket popamole. If the rocket launcher (in any game really) didn't do any arbitrary self-damage, everyone would only ever stick to the rocket launcher instead of using any other weapon because the rocket launcher usually has the best DPS. The Cyber-Mancubus in Eternal has an arbitrary weakness where you can punch its armor off with a Blood Punch and bypass a huge part of its health pool, which encourages you to risk getting very close to an enemy which is specifically designed around not letting you get close. Arbitrary and forced as these mechanics may be, ultimately they're designed around forcing you to think about what you're doing and to make more interesting decisions, instead of unbalanced messes like Dishonored where you basically have to invent your own set of rules and limitations to keep the game interesting. It's refreshing compared to all the recent unfocused sandbox tripe where they want to appeal to as many players as possible, and so add in half-baked stealth mechanics in a shooter or half-baked vehicle sections (or the platforming segments in Eternal, I'm not too happy about those either). To appeal to those who want freedom of expression in their games, you know.

That said, elemental weaknesses type stuff only works if each different element actually functions differently instead of being the same shit but in a different color. It's also a problem if the weaknesses present too perfect of a solution, case in point the Cacodemon grenade swallow for a free Glory Kill which is too easy and too powerful to execute and therefore you should always do it if you have the chance, or the Maurader where you're essentially reduced to one or two options to be able to beat him. OTOH, taking out weakspots on the Mancubi/Arachnotron/Revenant works because sniping their weakpoints is significantly trickier to execute (especially considering it's not like you're always in a situation where you can safely focus completely on just sniping the weakpoint without getting hit in the back) and doesn't completely turn those enemies into a joke if you do.
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,797
Location
Republic of Kongou
What Eternal managed to do is make using all of your tools essential for survival,
I dunno dude, having infinite ammo seems like an even greater incentive to keep using the rocket launcher on everything and then using whatever random weapon has full ammo while you wait for the chainsaw to cool down.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
What Eternal managed to do is make using all of your tools essential for survival,
I dunno dude, having infinite ammo seems like an even greater incentive to keep using the rocket launcher on everything and then using whatever random weapon has full ammo while you wait for the chainsaw to cool down.

That is how 2016 worked. You can no longer just spam the Rocket Launcher. There are also many times when you just can't find a smaller demon to chainsaw. Plus the chainsaw only restores part of your ammo.
 

orcinator

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
1,797
Location
Republic of Kongou
What Eternal managed to do is make using all of your tools essential for survival,
I dunno dude, having infinite ammo seems like an even greater incentive to keep using the rocket launcher on everything and then using whatever random weapon has full ammo while you wait for the chainsaw to cool down.

That is how 2016 worked. You can no longer just spam the Rocket Launcher. There are also many times when you just can't find a smaller demon to chainsaw. Plus the chainsaw only restores part of your ammo.

Small demons are almost always available unless it's the very end of the fight (or those later stages I haven't gotten to yet but imps and zombies have been plentiful for the first 50% of the game) and with a chainsaw every 15 seconds restoring half your ammo cap you get 20~ rockets per minute, add the 10 you started with because you chainsawed some of the ambient zombies on the way to the arena and you're right below 2016's maxed ammo cap of 35, and you can keep going even higher if it's a particularly long fight.

You should probably switch after blowing through the five rockets the zombie dropped but 20 rockets per minute is a lot of rockets.
 

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