Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

[eremita]

The thing is, if you wanna play your Luke Skywalker jedi, with all those stuff about honor, duty, selflessness and mercy, you get some trashing about not being wise and even being absolutely mislead (also, fuck Avellone for not giving me dialogue options to defend my position. Where are Nameless One's witty answers and counterarguments?

So the thing is that if you want to play an idiot, the game calls you out on it? Terrible thing i'm sure.
I give you the point of the game not giving you the option to defent your position, good or bad, though. That was a flaw compaired to Torment.

I might act like a motherfucker on this fucked up site, but I would never say that someone selfless, merciful and driven is idiot. So, fuck you. Aynway, again I'm not talking about WHAT she said but HOW... and how it fits/doesn't fit the whole universe...

 

[Stompa]

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of SW universe. I saw movies, play some games (Dark Forces excluded unfortunetly) but that's about it. The thing is, if you wanna play your Luke Skywalker jedi, with all those stuff about honor, duty, selflessness and mercy, you get some trashing about not being wise and even being absolutely mislead (also, fuck Avellone for not giving me dialogue options to defend my position. Where are Nameless One's witty answers and counterarguments? You feel like being schooled little boy majority of the game altough being a former Jedi Master). She talks about some secret ethernal truths about the ways of the universe and consequences that were never established. Don't get me wrong, it's not about what she's saying, but HOW she's saying that... Han Solo might be a good guy in the end (lots of his acts are questionable though), but I was talking about 'the ways of the force'. Bitching about good deeds from some assumed higher ground is whole another level. And I think that's Weekes talks about.

It may come as a surprise to you, but "the ways of the force" are horseshit. Remember how the Force showed Luke that his friends are in danger and he impulsively ran off to lend them a hand? Yeah. Also that plays into your arguement about playing a Skywalker-like Jedi, Skywalker was an implusive dumbfuck throughout the entire trilogy, whose only good quality was selflessness. And lo and behold, Kreia goes and tells you that selflessness for selflessness sake won't do you or anyone good, and that Force is a fickle thing to rely on. There's even a fucking example how "doing good" from your standpoint isn't equal to really doing good. And overly evil guys get told exactly the same way, only worse, since Kreia's previous pupils were already evil as fuck retards.

growing an asshole in the middle of your face.

 

[Rake]

I might act like a motherfucker on this fucked up site, but I would never say that someone selfless, merciful and driven is idiot. So, fuck you. Aynway, again I'm not talking about WHAT she said but HOW... and how it fits/doesn't fit the whole universe...

Being selfless, merciful etc. has nothing with being or not being idiot. Skywalker was a retard though, and you are the one that used him as your example. I never said that being merciful makes you automaticaly idiot, and Kreia didn't said so either. Being evil without reason get you an equaly harsh response.
Acting impulsively, not thinking things clearly and accesing each situation on it's own merits instead of going " for the good" or "for the evil" makes you an idiot. And Kreia points exactly that.

 

[Lhynn]

I might act like a motherfucker retard on this fucked up site but im actually trying2hard to be edgy

 

[ZagorTeNej]

For me KOTOR 2 is better than the first one in almost every way possible:

-Better plot, dialogue, characters (overall writing), this part is only debatable if you're a Biodrone, trying too hard edgy contrarian or Skyway.

-Better gameplay due to the addition of prestige classes, nearly every NPC having a unique specific ability which add more depth to them, influence system and being able to train other NPCs into becoming jedi, much better crafting system, more interesting lightsaber crystals etc. In both games combat is extremely easy so challenge wise it's about the same.

-Better atmosphere, I realize this is subjective and Bioware did good at translating at translating that SW feel but I prefer Kotor's 2 darker, more sort of dystopian atmosphere (also has a nice System Shock vibe at the beginning location), more interesting and much better written characters (not just Kreia) also contribute to that.

-Not many people will agree on this one but IMO Kotor 2 has significantly better visuals (everything from char models to art direction, locations/environment, armor/jedi robes etc.), Kotor is one butt ugly game while the sequel was always easy on the eyes for me.


That's not to say that I think KOTOR 1 is a bad game or even mediocre (I think it's a solid to good game) but KOTOR 2 is one of my favourites and IMO the best overall game Obsidian made so far.

 

[Kanedias]

KOTORs are shitty games. Let's not get much excited here, fellas. Kreia migh be interesting character with lot of smart lines but that game is broken, unfinnished and unbalanced shit with plot stop making sense in third part of the game. Also, Kreia is good, but other characters are not that great. First KOTOR, being also pretty bad, is much more polished and thoroughly thought.

What part of the plot doesn't make sense? Also the game had other great characters apart from Kreia. In fact, most of the characters were full of depth and had very interesting interactions with each other and with the Exile. Atris, for example, is fantastic.

 

[eremita]

Acting impulsively, not thinking things clearly and accesing each situation on it's own merits instead of going " for the good" or "for the evil" makes you an idiot.

What exactly are you talking about? I helped some guy for free because my character likes helping people and she started talking shit about 'ways of the universe'. I was thinking things clearly and I would defend my position if I was given a chance. But instead I got some Nietzsche-like self-righteous lectures in the universe where people, as Weekes said, get crap on their faces and goes mad for being 'evil'... Talking about moral ambiguity from higher ground in SW universe (as I said, I saw the crappy movies) is out of place.

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of SW universe. I saw movies, play some games (Dark Forces excluded unfortunetly) but that's about it. The thing is, if you wanna play your Luke Skywalker jedi, with all those stuff about honor, duty, selflessness and mercy, you get some trashing about not being wise and even being absolutely mislead (also, fuck Avellone for not giving me dialogue options to defend my position. Where are Nameless One's witty answers and counterarguments? You feel like being schooled little boy majority of the game altough being a former Jedi Master). She talks about some secret ethernal truths about the ways of the universe and consequences that were never established. Don't get me wrong, it's not about what she's saying, but HOW she's saying that... Han Solo might be a good guy in the end (lots of his acts are questionable though), but I was talking about 'the ways of the force'. Bitching about good deeds from some assumed higher ground is whole another level. And I think that's Weekes talks about.

And lo and behold, Kreia goes and tells you that selflessness for selflessness sake won't do you or anyone good, and that Force is a fickle thing to rely on.

Well, she's talking out of her ass. And that's what I'm talking about... Her ideas are part of the philosophy that was overall well thought and coherent, I'm not saying otherwise. But for me, It doesn't fit SW universe as something established. Thing is, making good for the 'sake of good' is the core of very strong european philosophical branch since Plato. Kant make it even more apealling and intersting. But in our reality, it's just a concept. In SW universe, you get to see that these are real things through light and dark effects of the force. Being a good guy for the sake of good (part of that is mercy, selflessness, duty etc.) does have its effect as does being an evil guy (crap on face!). Nothing is ambivalent, so there is no moral ambiguity there. That is why is Kreia out of place. Also, It is possible to defend 'for the sake of good' position; She said: selflessness for the sake of selflessness won't do anyone good. And that force is fickle thing to rely on (not really). I would say that, again, shes talking out of her ass, because nobody can predict how future things evolve (butterfly effect) and how are things that I started gonna ends up. That is why the only thing I have control over, is how I ACT. She destroyed her statement being anything more (established truth) by saying that 'force is tickle thing to rely on'. That is why is nothing more than just a statement an that is why I previsouly said what I said (that I don't have a problem with WHAT she said but HOW). And again, all I could do was say omething like: 'I disagree, old lady'!, making me look like a dummy who don't know why is he helping others.

 

[Kanedias]

So you want the plot to dumb itself down to fit with Lucas's genius artistic vision? That's idiotic. KOTOR 2 portrays the Star Wars setting better than other Star Wars works do, and that's what matters.

Kreia is not out of place, KOTOR 2 reinterprets the setting and gives it much needed depth.

 

[eremita]

KOTORs are shitty games. Let's not get much excited here, fellas. Kreia migh be interesting character with lot of smart lines but that game is broken, unfinnished and unbalanced shit with plot stop making sense in third part of the game. Also, Kreia is good, but other characters are not that great. First KOTOR, being also pretty bad, is much more polished and thoroughly thought.

What part of the plot doesn't make sense? Also the game had other great characters apart from Kreia. In fact, most of the characters were full of depth and had very interesting interactions with each other and with the Exile. Atris, for example, is fantastic.

I haven't played restored content yet, but basic games starts to be pretty recombined later (as far as I remember). Oh yeah, Atris is quite good, I was thinking more about companions...

 

[Rake]

Talking about moral ambiguity from higher ground in SW universe (as I said, I saw the crappy movies) is out of place.

Well, she's talking out of her ass. And that's what I'm talking about... Her ideas are part of the philosophy that was overall well thought and coherent, I'm not saying otherwise. But for me, It doesn't fit SW universe as something established.

Nothing is ambivalent, so there is no moral ambiguity there. That is why is Kreia out of place.

You just said the reasons that many of us consider SW cartoon morality crap, and like KotOR2 exactly because it shits all over Lucas idiotic concepts

 

[eremita]

Talking about moral ambiguity from higher ground in SW universe (as I said, I saw the crappy movies) is out of place.

Well, she's talking out of her ass. And that's what I'm talking about... Her ideas are part of the philosophy that was overall well thought and coherent, I'm not saying otherwise. But for me, It doesn't fit SW universe as something established.

Nothing is ambivalent, so there is no moral ambiguity there. That is why is Kreia out of place.

You just said the reasons that many of us consider SW cartoon morality crap, and like KotOR2 exactly because it shits all over Lucas idiotic concepts

Non sequitur. It contradicts the universe, no matter how crappy. That's the point Weekees was doing. And that is why he was saying he thinks Obsidian would do much better with IP like Alpha Protocol. And he was right.

 

[Kanedias]

It doesn't "contradict" anything. It is a more interesting, refreshing take on an existing setting. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. This is a virtue of the game, not a sin. Obsidian decided to do something creative, interesting and complex with the Star Wars setting for once, instead of doing what nearly everyone else does and rehashing the same used Star Wars tropes ad nauseam, no matter how shitty they are.

I don't know why you blindly follow status quo and condemn every possible change, limiting creativity in the process.

Also, it is Obsidian's story, not Lucas's.

 

[Rahdulan]

Except SW stopped being "dark - bad, light - good" a long time ago. There were Dark Forces games where protagonist can sling Force Lighting like the best siths in the galaxy while being a good guy (mostly), there were KoTOR comics where antagonists were Jedi, there was Legacy which had a Skywalker hunt Jedi for profit while staying on the Light Side of Force. It goes even further, remember the famous "Han shot first"? That shit was about having moral ambiguity in the universe, that even good guys can fight dirty and shit like that. Hell, even in Bioware's game there's that little part with Sith motto and guess what, it doesn't say Sith must be an evil motherfucker who plans to kill Supe... Jedi every saturday morning. That dumb karma system with changing face is a leftover from Bioware and it's funny that a Bioware employee is bitching about it.

I would honestly argue those cases are either products of A) Expanded Universe for which George Lucas has shown disregard and B) fan speculation, particularly when it comes to "who shot first" debate. From my understanding Lucas' concept was a very simple "good vs evil, a fantasy tale in space", but I could of course be completely wrong and he could've changed mind in the meantime.

 

[Kron]

George Lucas literally wanted to make a "space opera" with goodies vs. baddies; consciously going against movies in the 70's which were more morally ambiguous.

The guy was and is a fucking retard, and Star Wars was and is dumb kiddie science fiction.

 

[Aeschylus]

The guy was and is a fucking retard, and Star Wars was and is dumb kiddie science fiction.

Well, 1) Star Wars is not really science fiction. It's fantasy in a futuristic setting.
2) George Lucas' giant piles of money say he's probably pretty smart, even if he's not the best writer.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

"I'm richer than him. Fuck that loser."

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Just stopping by to read up newest opinions about DA - starwars, Lucas, KOTOR. I am out.

 

[eremita]

Everyone who thinks that relativizing hard/established-black and white rules (cartoon morality crap) is always a good thing while creating universe like this/sticking to these rules is alwys a bad thing is a fucking cunt. It's just narrow-sided. We were already discussing this somewhere here in case of Torment and alignments and I was talking about Lermontov's Demon. Realistic =/= always fucking awesome and suitable concept. You can create deep and fascinating things in universe with hard moral rules/fixed notions. For me, the most deep and interesting parts in Torment were related to things they did with alignements (and I'm talking about sticking to them and thinking them through, playing with these rules in many interesting ways, NOT deconstructing/relativizing or violate them). So yeah, you fgiured out that black and white concepts are simplyfing things. Congratulations! You're a fucking genius! That's not the point. The Point is, you can make great things with arbitrary concepts BECAUSE they are not realistic (Like Succubus fighting her own evil nature in this bizzare and arbitrary world. There is no such thing as 'demonic nature' in our world.) Kreia is not a result of 'playing with the rules' but taking a dump on them...

Also, one of the great possible results of these rules might be establishing dialogues as part of the gameplay. Subordinate them to special rules that are derived from moral rules of the universe. Overall (not just in case of this concept) I'm very interested in the idea of making dialogues as game mechanics. Force player to play with specific rules and punish them for making mistakes/inefficient judgements (you're being incoherent here/your character lacks personality in our sense of established personalities). That is why I like the tone mechanics in DA2 for example even though there were some problems.

 

[Infinitron]

Non sequitur. It contradicts the universe, no matter how crappy. That's the point Weekees was doing. And that is why he was saying he thinks Obsidian would do much better with IP like Alpha Protocol. And he was right.

Actually, that was only a minor part of Weekes' argument, which was mostly about how high brow moral ambiguity and philosophical undertones scare away casuals who "just want to unwind after work".

Fuck. That. Loser.

 

[eremita]

Non sequitur. It contradicts the universe, no matter how crappy. That's the point Weekees was doing. And that is why he was saying he thinks Obsidian would do much better with IP like Alpha Protocol. And he was right.

Actually, that was only a minor part of Weekes' argument, which was mostly about how high brow moral ambiguity and philosophical undertones scare away casuals who "just want to unwind after work".

Nope.

 

[Infinitron]

Yep yep it's another 2013 shitposter

 

[Rake]

Non sequitur. It contradicts the universe, no matter how crappy. That's the point Weekees was doing. And that is why he was saying he thinks Obsidian would do much better with IP like Alpha Protocol. And he was right.

Actually, that was only a minor part of Weekes' argument, which was mostly about how high brow moral ambiguity and philosophical undertones scare away casuals who "just want to unwind after work".

Nope.

Yes. The guy is a retard of the higher propotions.

Spoiler

The bad news is that nuanced doesn't help when you put the game down for a week and then come back to try to remember what you were supposed to be doing — and can also lead to times when the player is pissed off because the game didn't explain things to them.

I want to be Mister Glowy Sparkly aura of awesome. That's what I paid $60 for.

I can get shades of gray with no clear moral choices in real life. When I play a video game, I want to be a good guy who whacks bad guys.

I also liked the KotOR ending — not only did I whomp on the big bad guy, I got the big bad guy to turn a little toward the light there at the end. I got to both whomp on AND redeem somebody, and that felt awesome. I didn't mind not knowing what happened to all my followers, because, well, I was a big freakin' hero. I assumed we lived happily ever after

I also liked the KotOR ending — not only did I whomp on the big bad guy, I got the big bad guy to turn a little toward the light there at the end. I got to both whomp on AND redeem somebody, and that felt awesome. I didn't mind not knowing what happened to all my followers, because, well, I was a big freakin' hero. I assumed we lived happily ever after

When I come home from a long day at work, make dinner, clean up after dinner, and help put my little dude to bed, I've got about half an hour to do something on my own time before it's time for me to do evening chores and head for bed. I'm not looking for a sword-holding simulation complete with gangrenous leg wounds and a terrifying fear of combat. I'm looking to be the hero who whacks bad guys. I'm looking for comfort in the realm of the heroic. Yes, it's an indulgence, because I spent $60 Canadian to indulge myself

And fuck you, i feel like Roguey now

 

[Rod Rodderson]

For what it's worth, I can understand wanting nothing more than a silly little romp in space with your band of buddies going around and saving the day from the big bad guy. And I can understand why somebody, wanting nothing more than said space adventure, might feel put off by a sequel that is something deeper than that. But that's all. A dumb space adventure won't end up being better, on an intellectual level, than something that aims much higher (and on that level, I think succeeds well enough, even if it wasn't entirely finished).

That isn't to say that the sequel doesn't have its share of flaws, and I can see someone being put off by them (and even those are just a few gameplay sequences and a somewhat disjointed ending). But where it succeeds it so far outdoes its predecessor that these can be overlooked. And if your rabid love for Lucas's vision of Star Wars is so great that you can't set that aside and recognize intelligence when you see it, then you have learned nothing.

 

[DraQ]

playing with these rules (...) NOT deconstructing

Does not compute.

Succubus fighting her own evil nature in this bizzare and arbitrary world.

Is already nothing but deconstruction.
Deconstruction != just saying "lolno".

 

[DalekFlay]

I think there's merit to saying that Star Wars is kiddie space fantasy good vs. evil, so KotOR2 doesn't really "fit" in the universe. That said they had Obsidian make it, and Obsidian should make what they find interesting. As someone who thinks Star Wars is kind of shit outside of Empire Strikes Back's visual aesthetic I don't care if it betrays the parent series, but I get why betraying the parent series can be bad. Imagine a Doctor Who FPS.