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Dragon Age - official Codex verdict

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Inziladun said:
Clockwork Knight said:
Another negative was the Warden's Keep DLC. I completed it in under an hour, and all I got were two lousy merchants and a storage chest I didn't even need (you can buy backpacks throughout your travels that get the job done).

Huh. Weren't people bitching about that being the only storage in the game

so it's useless after all

Pretty much, unless you have that Hoarder mentality, you really don't need to store anything. Personally I just sold all my spare shit to the vendor that follows you around and stays in your camp. That way I knew if I needed anything back for any reason I could just buy it back. Worked out well for little things like Garnets and crafting components needed for quests.

Everything else stayed right where it was.

I just went ahead and edited my inventory space to 250. 70 space was horribly constraining for me. BG gave you something like 20 spaces per character for 6 characters, then it gave you multiple spots to hold weapons/ammo and consumables in (being forced to open the entire inventory screen and hunt down the weapon you want every time you want to switch sucks as well). Then you had bags that held all the scrolls/gems/ammo/potions you wanted. Then a decent ways into the game you got Bags of holding, which basically held everything. On top of that, you didn't need to carry around random crap to hand out to party members to get you to like them, didn't need to carry trap/potion components, ect.
 

Vault Dweller

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Grunker said:
Best since Arcanum? What does that even mean?
What do you think it means?

Fuck. The game's good no doubt, but the writing is extremely bad compared to Bloodlines or even The Witcher's. So is C&C. Even Origin-consequenes are worse than Bloodlines' clan-consequences.
The writing is good overall. It's not Bloodlines, but it's on par or better than the Witcher (depends on the translation).

Overall, we aren't discussing whether or not the writing is the best ever or whether or not the Origins are better than BL's disciplines (not that it would make sense to compare the two). We are talking about the game overall, as a complete experience, and as such an experience it's better than any post-Arcanum game.

The game has next to no clear defined goal other than...
Is it good or bad?

...and it's so filled with clichés and ripoffs it might just be the most ripoffish game ever made.
Is every game/book that has elves and dwarves rip off? Think before you answer.

I'm on the "game is good"-side, but this is taking it way too far. Even I won't lower my standards to that level, and mine are pretty low to begin with.
Good to know.

Case in point being that even VD mostly commends the game for general stuff that could also be in other games (setting, combat, etc.). As far as roleplaying goes, there's definetely other titles that have done better.
I commend it mostly for role-playing, but the other parts are pretty good too.

*Bloodlines, The Witcher, Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords, Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, just to name some.
KOTOR2? Funny.
 

Junior Boy

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I really don't think the writing is worse than The Witcher at all, Grunk. And yeah, that could just be the English translation, but TW can sometimes feel overly laconic and awkward. DA is easily one of the better written voice acted games (writing quality is worse in voice acted games, usually).

As for the setting, I think they took something cliche and fleshed it out so much it's forgivable. The codex is great, as is some of the areas that have historically been done to death, such as Orzammar. The whole "underground dwarf city" shit is overused, but I appreciate how they characterized Dwarfs in a different way, almost like the Skaven from Warhammer. It was legit.

Dragon Age has bad flaws, but the setting and it's depth were not one of them. That's just the feeling I got though.
 

Grunker

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^I'm not arguing with that. Except for the Witcher having worse writing. It's leagues better than DA:O, since it's not empty and meaningless words. It's very awkward, granted, but the words in the dialogue are there for a reason. When, for example, Leliana speaks, she either tells some deadboring story without a hint of originality to it, or she's busy talking about how you make her feel warm and fuzzy inside, because you said "I LIK U" a few times and gave her a ruby or two.

At least the girls in The Witcher had goddamn common courtesy to be honest about the fact that they just needed a quick fuck, with the exception of two girls who you actually forged a relationship with.

And please keep in mind that my "dispute" with VD is not about whether DA is good or not - I agree with him there. It's whether this game holds water to other titles released since Arcanum.

whether or not the Origins are better than BL's disciplines (not that it would make sense to compare the two)

Not the only the disciplines. Also the difference in reactions and playing style.

Is it good or bad?

Definetely bad. Every single dialogue of import makes your character take a standpoint to the blight. And only a fucking psycho without regard for his own health would answer anything but: "Of course I'll do it. Fucking man-eating retards need to be stopped." It's not interesting roleplaying a) a sensible normal person, or b) a raving lunatic. I'd like some c's, d's and maybe even e's. And of course the main plot is important. It's 50% of what you do in this game. The gathering of allies has no other relevance.

Is every game/book that has elves and dwarves rip off? Think before you answer.

:lol:

Thank's for the suggestion, but there's no need for belittleling me. I'm not talking dwarves and elves here. I'm talking the way they implement these things. Grey Warden's are a ripoff of every single "special units" in any fantasy verse ever. They even have the "no political affiliation" and "neutrality" of The Witchers, except without the clever discussion about the consequences of said neutrality. I have hordes of examples on this.

I appreciate the fact that art means stealing from those who do good, but there's a fucking huge difference between inspiration and total copy/paste.

Good to know.

You're more clever than this, I suspect. So I'll just leave it at that.

KOTOR2? Funny.

KotOR2 at least had experimental writing going for it. The writing in this game isn't much different from Baldur's Gate - with the sole exception of some attempts at political intrigue. Attempts it fails at (unless you count the landsmeet, which without a doubt is one of my favourite scenes in DA:O). Thanks for neglecting my other examples though ;)

All in all, I don't disagree with you on a lot of parts. But it's very bold to state "best since Arcanum" without actually taking the time to talk about why it's better than all the others. Again, keep in mind that I actually like DA. I like it very, very much. It's only that one statement I disagree with, VD.

But you know, maybe my whole starting point for this discussion is bad, VD. Since I didn't like Arcanum much.
 
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I think part of it is you're looking at the past games with rose colored glasses. Kotor 2 had a lot to like with it, but it also had a ton of massive flaws. Among these flaws were the fact that it was completely incomplete, the combat, especially post level 20 was completely easy and mindless, and there was just a feeling of... something lacking when you reached the end. Now, the reasons behind this are obvious and have been discussed to death, but evaluate the finished complete product and don't just look at the good parts.

The same naturally goes for Bloodlines and MotB (while I disagree with VD on whether it's better than both of those, it's at least in the discussion and probably on par in terms of overall quality).
 

sqeecoo

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Grunker said:
And please keep in mind that my "dispute" with VD is not about whether DA is good or not - I agree with him there. It's whether this game holds water to other titles released since Arcanum.

I agree with you completely here. It's not that DA is not good - it is - it's just that it's somewhat bland. I'd much rather play a flawed game with flashes of brilliance - like the Witcher or Pathologic - than a excellent but uninspired game like DA.
 

Vault Dweller

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Grunker said:
Is it good or bad?

Definetely bad. Every single dialogue of import makes your character take a standpoint to the blight. And only a fucking psycho without regard for his own health would answer anything but: "Of course I'll do it. Fucking man-eating retards need to be stopped."
So everyone who joined the army to fight the Nazi is a fucking psycho without regard for his own health? Every fucking one of them?

It may come as a surprise to you, but many people when faced annihilation will chose to fight rather than flee or wait for a merciful death. Your character gets a vision (a weak link to the hive, courtesy of the tainted blood) when he becomes a Warden. He knows that the threat is real and that the Blight must be stopped.

Grey Warden's are a ripoff of every single "special units" in any fantasy verse ever. They even have the "no political affiliation" and "neutrality" of The Witchers, except without the clever discussion about the consequences of said neutrality. I have hordes of examples on this.

I appreciate the fact that art means stealing from those who do good, but there's a fucking huge difference between inspiration and total copy/paste.
A rip off of every single special unit? The Wardens aren't honorable, the Wardens aren't neutral (they even joined a rebellion at some point), the Wardens aren't even good (neither they are bad, which is what makes the game good), and the Wardens disregard the established laws and play with the banned blood magic.

If you imagined that the Wardens are some kinda badass order of awesome protectors of humanity, I suggest to re-play the game and this time pay attention.

Good to know.
You're more clever than this, I suspect. So I'll just leave it at that.
My point was that your statement about your standards was irrelevant.

All in all, I don't disagree with you on a lot of parts. But it's very bold to state "best since Arcanum" without actually taking the time to talk about why it's better than all the others. Again, keep in mind that I actually like DA. I like it very, very much. It's only that one statement I disagree with, VD.
I'll leave it for the review, if you don't mind.
 

Vault Dweller

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Clockwork Knight said:
Another negative was the Warden's Keep DLC. I completed it in under an hour, and all I got were two lousy merchants and a storage chest I didn't even need (you can buy backpacks throughout your travels that get the job done).

Huh. Weren't people bitching about that being the only storage in the game

so it's useless after all
From my post on ITSF:

The story/lore/more info on the Wardens - pretty damn good. I'd say it's a great, although short addition to the gameworld, painting the Wardens not as the overused "holy knights protecting the humanity at all cost" cliche, but as a very real, scheming faction that's not above joining rebellions, conducting forbidden experiments to gain more power, conflicting with the Chantry, and even arrogantly believing that they may not fail where the original magi who became the first darkspawn have failed.

The mage's "A Warden does what he must" response, his experiments, his views, his arrogance, his disregard of the cost, even the truly vile powers his research grants you paint a great picture of what the Wardens order is.

The choice between the mage and the demon who turned on him is well done. The rewards are decent, and as I understand you get a smith who can forge that meteor metal into a nice sword for you. So, overall, I wish it was longer, but I can't say that I feel that I was ripped off.
 

Grunker

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Ok, VD, there are two large flaws in the above arguments I'd like you to explain. More below.

I think part of it is you're looking at the past games with rose colored glasses.

I might be in the case of KotORII. But I have a review I wrote about Bloodlines, as well as the fact that I played the game recently to suggest you're not right about that one. And certainly not MotB - I played that little more than half a year ago.

I agree with you completely here. It's not that DA is not good - it is - it's just that it's somewhat bland. I'd much rather play a flawed game with flashes of brilliance - like the Witcher or Pathologic - than a excellent but uninspired game like DA.

I couldn't agree more.

Now, VD, flaw nr. 1:

So everyone who joined the army to fight the Nazi is a fucking psycho without regard for his own health? Every fucking one of them?

It may come as a surprise to you, but many people when faced annihilation will chose to fight rather than flee or wait for a merciful death. Your character gets a vision (a weak link to the hive, courtesy of the tainted blood) when he becomes a Warden. He knows that the threat is real and that the Blight must be stopped.

VD, I meant the exact opposite of what you're intrepeting. Take a look at what I wrote again, and then comment. Honest mistake.

Flaw nr. 2:

A rip off of every single special unit? The Wardens aren't honorable, the Wardens aren't neutral (they even joined a rebellion at some point), the Wardens aren't even good (neither they are bad, which is what makes the game good), and the Wardens disregard the established laws and play with the banned blood magic.

Okay, now I'm convinced there's something wrong here. The game is littered with info on this rebellion, and how it was "unwardenly" of them to join it. There's even an attempt at a debate on the issue in one of the dialogues in the keep.

On top of that, witchers aren't honorable either. They've been involved in every single one of your examples above. Rebellion, forbidden experiments, and more.

I'll leave it for the review, if you don't mind.

I don't, though I think it's a tiny bit weak to throw that statement out there and then not commen on it ;)

From my standpoint, it's obvious that The Witcher and George R. R. Martin is the source of almost everything in DA:O that is not generic.
 
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Vault Dweller said:
... and as I understand you get a smith who can forge that meteor metal into a nice sword for you...

Yes, and all you have to do in order to get is to endure a special encounter with Martha and Jonathan Kent! Fnar fnar! Such wit! Really, couldn't they just have put the damned metal in a chest?
 

Vault Dweller

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Dajaaj said:
Vault Dweller said:
the best RPG since Arcanum.

So you think DA is better than Bloodlines? I find that pretty hard to believe, but I won't discount the possibility.

Could you describe why you think DA is the superior game of those two?
Here is my 5 year old Bloodlines' impressions (to avoid claims that I've suddenly changed my mind):
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5807

I hope it makes it very clear why I think that Dragon Age is a better RPG overall.
 

Volourn

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"Except for the Witcher having worse writing. It's leagues better than DA:O, since it's not empty and meaningless words."

Bullshit. TW had horrible writing. POR2, and TOEE level of shit writing.

BL's writing was fantatsic for the most part but it has the same flaw as DA and that it does some imamture bits.

KOTOR2's wiritng is average, not special. It's not deep. "OMG, the force is evil, and it must be destroyed' is as shallow as one cna get.

MOTB's writing is fantastic. No doubt about it.

Overall, however, DA is better than ALL of those games. 'Cause it has the best combination of writing, story, characters, C&C, combat, world lore, and other shit.


And, i cna't believe that anyone is arguing that any game has better use of variant 'origins'/prologues' than DA. That's total blind stupidity.
 

Vault Dweller

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Grunker said:
VD, I meant the exact opposite of what you're intrepeting. Take a look at what I wrote again, and then comment. Honest mistake.
My apologies.

Okay, now I'm convinced there's something wrong here. The game is littered with info on this rebellion, and how it was "unwardenly" of them to join it. There's even an attempt at a debate on the issue in one of the dialogues in the keep.
Well, we can argue now (in the game) whether it was unwardenly or not - although what do you (your character) know about the Wardens? - but the Wardens aren't what you think of them or what other people think of them. What the Wardens are is determined by their deeds, which are, unfortunately, less noble and honorable than some characters lead you to believe. There was nothing noble or good about Duncan agreeing to take a dying man's son to safety only in exchange for the son's life (and Duncan knew very well what drinking the blood means and does).

On top of that, witchers aren't honorable either. They've been involved in every single one of your examples above. Rebellion, forbidden experiments, and more.
That makes the Wardens a rip off?

From my standpoint, it's obvious that The Witcher and George R. R. Martin is the source of almost everything in DA:O that is not generic.
Martin is definitely an inspiration, but his themes are hardly unique. Open any history book and you'll find nothing but backstabbing, betrayals, and political intrigues.

As for the Witcher, Dragon Age was announced 2 years before the Witcher's release.

I'll leave it for the review, if you don't mind.
I don't, though I think it's a tiny bit weak to throw that statement out there and then not commen on it ;)
I'll elaborate on it tomorrow morning then.
 
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As a complete package, it may be better. There aren't any real glaring weaknesses with DA, while many of the mentioned games have major flaws (specifically BL).

Bloodlines has that something else though. You can't explain it, but while you're playing it, you just get the feeling that this game is *great*. The flaws are there and they are evident, but they don't seem to matter.

DA doesn't have that feeling of greatness, in my opinion. Now ultimately this feeling of "greatness" is a nebulous argument, but it's the best way that I can describe it. DA is good, and incredibly solid throughout, but I feel it lacks whatever it is that makes games great.
 

sqeecoo

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I'd rather play a flawed game that intrigues me with flashes of brilliance like the Witcher or BL, than a nearly-perfectly executed game that goes not, like DA. It's not that the game is not good, it's just that it's a bit bland...

I understand completely what the Flying Monster is saying.

It's funny, really. Almost all the games I consider great have huge flaws - PST, Arcanum, Pathologic, etc. - but I love them all the same.
(there are some notable exceptions like FO1 and BaK)

Playing DA was a funny experience, really. I was impressed by the quality of the game, but never really thrilled or fascinated by it.
 

Silellak

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Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
As a complete package, it may be better. There aren't any real glaring weaknesses with DA, while many of the mentioned games have major flaws (specifically BL).

Bloodlines has that something else though. You can't explain it, but while you're playing it, you just get the feeling that this game is *great*. The flaws are there and they are evident, but they don't seem to matter.

DA doesn't have that feeling of greatness, in my opinion. Now ultimately this feeling of "greatness" is a nebulous argument, but it's the best way that I can describe it. DA is good, and incredibly solid throughout, but I feel it lacks whatever it is that makes games great.
That elusive feeling is just a personal thing - just like some books or movies "click" with certain people, certain games "click" with others.

DA "clicks" with me in a way that no other RPG for years has, for whatever reason. When I get home from work, I sit down in front of my computer and fire it up, and often don't shut it off until I need sleep. I haven't felt that way with any game - RPG or otherwise - for a long time. Especially incredible because it's a PC game - not that I don't like PC gaming, but I work with a computer so much that often the last thing I want to do when I get home is keep sitting in front of a computer. Yet here I am, every night, staring at that glowing screen. One of the highest compliments I can pay the game is that it has re-kindled my waining love for PC gaming. Sure, the game might available on consoles, but it feels like a PC game through-and-through. It's bittersweet, though, because DA feels more like a swan-song of a bygone area that a potential revival of the CRPG genre.

Obviously some people will feel this "click", and others won't - that's just the way entertainment works. Most people who've played DA for a decent amount of time will at least admit that all of the pieces are there and, it is, at the very least, a good game. Some people feel that personal click with it that promotes a good game into a truly great game, others don't, and there's no amount of arguing from either side that will change the other side's mind. Which is really how it should be.

Anyway, this post is way too touchy-feely for the Codex, so: fag homonigger douchecunt.
 
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Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
DA is good, and incredibly solid throughout, but I feel it lacks whatever it is that makes games great.

Which would be gameplay. That's pretty elementary, what other factors could you use to determine if a game is great or not?
 
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Demnogonis Saastuttaja said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
DA is good, and incredibly solid throughout, but I feel it lacks whatever it is that makes games great.

Which would be gameplay. That's pretty elementary, what other factors could you use to determine if a game is great or not?

Whew, thank you. We were almost having a constructive discussion.
 

Silellak

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Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
Demnogonis Saastuttaja said:
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
DA is good, and incredibly solid throughout, but I feel it lacks whatever it is that makes games great.

Which would be gameplay. That's pretty elementary, what other factors could you use to determine if a game is great or not?

Whew, thank you. We were almost having a constructive discussion.
Yeah, that was a close one.
 

Grunker

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Well, we can argue now (in the game) whether it was unwardenly or not - although what do you (your character) know about the Wardens? - but the Wardens aren't what you think of them or what other people think of them. What the Wardens are is determined by their deeds, which are, unfortunately, less noble and honorable than some characters lead you to believe. There was nothing noble or good about Duncan agreeing to take a dying man's son to safety only in exchange for the son's life (and Duncan knew very well what drinking the blood means and does).

"Good words need no defense - they are the walls to their own keep." Your defense of the inconsistensies in the Wardens are solely your views on the matter, your perspective of the logic in the story. The game gives none itself. A short summary of the warden's morality, as given by the game:

A lot of people say they're cool. The first thing that throws a monkey wrench into this is Duncan being a dick. As mentioned before, this is inconsistent; nothing at all besides that moment and only that, reveals this trait in him. That's not good characterization, unless it's backed up by at least one other part of the writing. The second time we are presented with this, is the demonic summoning. An elite group defending what they believe is right take to evil to win. It's in the great book of clichés, and DA:O doesn't even have an original spin, like The Witcher had. It's just the cliché, straight out.

Now, rebuke the above if you will - but use the game's own writing to defend it. Using your logic to fill the wholes in Gaider's writing does not good writing make.

That makes the Wardens a rip off?

Never said it did. I used other arguments for that. You provided those characteristics as a defense of them being original. But they're not.

Martin is definitely an inspiration, but his themes are hardly unique. Open any history book and you'll find nothing but backstabbing, betrayals, and political intrigues.

As for Martin, it is not by any means originality that makes him so good, it is the sheer quality of his writing. The same cannot be said by Gaider. Where Martin's characters are multifacetted, deep, and surprising,* Gaider's character's are as flat as piece of paper. There are exceptions of course. But even the prime example, Loghain, sits on a very loose stool. His motivation is hardly justified in the writing - doing what he did was either the insanity of a lunatic, or the ambition of a usurper. He is characterized as neither, and heavily characterised as genuinely believing in Ferelden.

The lack of roleplaying makes this worse: From the first times the wolves in the Brecillian Outskirts opened their mouthes, I knew the dalish were messing with me. Going back to confront them yielded no new dialogue. Apparently, I'm roleplaying the typical retard.

*As I quick note, I've only read A Game of Thrones so far, so I do not know if this changes later in his career.

As for the Witcher, Dragon Age was announced 2 years before the Witcher's release.

As I have mentioned before, this is a fallacy. Believe it or not, I have followed Dragon Age from the very beginning. Back then, before The Witcher, it had almost no direction story-wise. They were busy developing engine, rulesystem, and the general setting. One question in the FAQ said: "Why is it called 'Dragon Age'?" to which the reply was: "It is set in an age heavily influenced by the presence of many dragons - some benevolent, others malevolent." The exact opposite of what it ultimately became. Adding to this that the game had a total change in story-direction when it went from being called Dragon Age to being called Dragon Age: Origins, there's hardly any support for saying it didn't rip off the Witcher on that account.

I'll elaborate on it tomorrow morning then.

I was just messing with ya. Save it for the review - then you'll only have to say once, and it'll probably be better written. Looking forward to reading it, by the way.

I apologise for my walls of text. I'm extremely tired :)
 

BLOBERT

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BROS SORRY TO DISSAPPOINT YOU WITH ALL YOU'RE FANCY SMART TALK BUT TAKE YOUR BIOWHORE LOVING SHIT BACK TO GAMEFAGS WITH THIS CONSOLESTARD TRASH!>!>>!?!!!
 

Barrow_Bug

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Wow, I am seeing some serious love for DA from the Codex here, including VD???? Are you telling me I should invest kids? Like, really?
 

Annonchinil

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Writing in DA ranges from embarrassing to interesting and sort of funny.

The thing is that the majority of it is just forgettable and so far there do not seem to be many stand out moments.

The only serious one I can think of is the human noble ending where the wife agrees to remain with her husband, it was simple and fit the moment.

There are some funny bits, I liked the 'answering machine' response when you speak to the guard near the King's Tent.

That is not to say that the concepts behind it aren't interesting, the party members have some good ideas behind them, but the execution keeps them from becoming excellent.

The thing that is missing from the game are those stand out moments where the VA, the story, the characters and the style come together to create those amazing conversations and moments that make you lean forward, savour every line, and realize how awesome this game is. For me my favourite such moments in rpgs include; conversation with Ravel, reading the attractive zombies number, conversation with Dhall, certain conversations with Kreia especially when you can scheme with her, anything about or with Darth Nihilus like when Visas Marr speaks to him, reading the book about the Betrayer's Crusade in the starting cave in MotB, Irenicus epilogue, and plenty more. That is of course not mentioning all the great non rpg story sequences like the beginning and ending of Brood War and the last five minutes of MGS3: Snake Eater.

These are personal preferences and I still have not finished DA. So are there any moments in DA that will go down as anyone’s favourites?
 

Grifthin

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It's a game worth playing through atleast once. There's a lot of good in the game.
 

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