Dragon Age Dragon Age: The Veilguard - coming Fall 2024

[whydoibother]

unachievable

Unviable economically. Games need to be:

• playable on gamepad
• playable on your tv from 2-3 meters away
• playable by people for whom english is a third language
• have distinct micro goals that can be achieved in ~1 hour of play
• have additional ways to demand payments from owners

The first three points have to do with UI, dialogues, writing, the kind mouse powered combat we like. They are the big ones, methinks.

 

[santino27]

I thought DA:O was distinctly mediocre, even at the time. It just looks good in comparison to what came after... and honestly, I think a lot of the like for it was because people thought it was deeply flawed but had some promise and that subsequent entries in the series would try to address those flaws instead of jumping head first into whatever the fuck the series actually became.

That said, my wife remains super excited about DA4 despite (or perhaps because of) the complete lack of meaningful information released so far about it. So I guess Bioware still has their target audience. Life is hard.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Call of duty have remnants of RPG inside them too, moron.

Yeah, but ME is more based on them than NS. You silly doo-doo.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

That said, my wife remains super excited about DA4 despite (or perhaps because of) the complete lack of meaningful information released so far about it. So I guess Bioware still has their target audience. Life is hard.

She is waiting for gay romances, I believe. And Bioware really care about their gay romances for women. It is the only thing we can be sure of.

 

[Infinitron]

Here's something that will put DA:O into perspective, whether you think it's shit or not.

If Dreadwolf is released and is essentially a carbon copy of DA:O quality-wise (with modern graphics and a new storyline ofc), it will probably be regarded as a huge revival for BioWare. Codexers will claim to love BioWare again (lol), mainstream journos will rave about it, streamers will stream.

It will immediately be (at the very least) a competitor to BG3 and any other RPG released around the same period, if not bury them.

The fact that a game like DA:O is so borderline unachievable in 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about the modern video game industry.

Not sure I agree with this. I think the area design of DA:O (and similar titles from that era) is primitive and would compare poorly with BG3.

 

[Fedora Master]

I present: The expert staff at rpgcodex dot net

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Here's something that will put DA:O into perspective, whether you think it's shit or not.

If Dreadwolf is released and is essentially a carbon copy of DA:O quality-wise (with modern graphics and a new storyline ofc), it will probably be regarded as a huge revival for BioWare. Codexers will claim to love BioWare again (lol), mainstream journos will rave about it, streamers will stream.

It will immediately be (at the very least) a competitor to BG3 and any other RPG released around the same period, if not bury them.

The fact that a game like DA:O is so borderline unachievable in 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about the modern video game industry.

I expect BG3 to be better than DA:O, for a start.
And that’s NOT to say that I expect BG3 to be stellar. I’m pretty much considered some sort of grumpy Negative Nancy on their official forum.

I just expect the game to be ahead by the virtue of not being based on a completely retarded set of rules and systems. And that’s even taking into account how… controversial the 5th edition is around these parts (not entirely without merit, but Codex autism still plays a big role in it) AND how less-than-perfect Larian’s adaptation of it can be at times.

 

[Fedora Master]

I just expect the game to be ahead by the virtue of not being based on a completely retarded set of rules and systems.

PoE is celebrated by some people here and it is the definition of a retarded ruleset.

 

[Infinitron]

I present: The expert staff at rpgcodex dot net

My goodness man, compare Denerim with the Baldur's Gate city reveal video Larian just released. Even people who liked DA:O (such as myself) thought BioWare failed here.

A modern game created in that style would feel so limited and constrained.

 

[santino27]

Here's something that will put DA:O into perspective, whether you think it's shit or not.

If Dreadwolf is released and is essentially a carbon copy of DA:O quality-wise (with modern graphics and a new storyline ofc), it will probably be regarded as a huge revival for BioWare. Codexers will claim to love BioWare again (lol), mainstream journos will rave about it, streamers will stream.

It will immediately be (at the very least) a competitor to BG3 and any other RPG released around the same period, if not bury them.

The fact that a game like DA:O is so borderline unachievable in 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about the modern video game industry.

I expect BG3 to be better than DA:O, for a start.
And that’s NOT to say that I expect BG3 to be stellar. I’m pretty much considered some sort of grumpy Negative Nancy on their official forum.

I just expect the game to be ahead by the virtue of not being based on a completely retarded set of rules and systems. And that’s even taking into account how… controversial the 5th edition is around these parts (not entirely without merit, but Codex autism still plays a big role in it) AND how less-than-perfect Larian’s adaptation of it can be at times.

As someone who tried to play it in PnP, 5E blows man-sized chunks, but otherwise, I agree.

 

[Tyranicon]

Here's something that will put DA:O into perspective, whether you think it's shit or not.

If Dreadwolf is released and is essentially a carbon copy of DA:O quality-wise (with modern graphics and a new storyline ofc), it will probably be regarded as a huge revival for BioWare. Codexers will claim to love BioWare again (lol), mainstream journos will rave about it, streamers will stream.

It will immediately be (at the very least) a competitor to BG3 and any other RPG released around the same period, if not bury them.

The fact that a game like DA:O is so borderline unachievable in 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about the modern video game industry.

Not sure I agree with this. I think the area design of DA:O (and similar titles from that era) is primitive and would compare poorly with BG3.

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

compare Denerim with the Baldur's Gate city reveal video Larian just released.

Once again, a big TBD since I haven't played the EA and the game hasn't released yet.

 

[Fedora Master]

I present: The expert staff at rpgcodex dot net

My goodness man, compare Denerim with the Baldur's Gate city reveal video Larian just released. Even people who liked DA:O (such as myself) thought BioWare failed here.

A modern game created in that style would feel so limited and constrained.

Denerim wins by default because it put all the elves in the ghetto, where they belong.

 

[Infinitron]

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

Maybe there is a problem? RTwP with D&D mechanics has always been dumb. I play exactly know NN: OC, and I still think how this tedious game could be better with turn based combat. Bioware identity and ambitionswere based on romances, quirky characters and cheap stories. Combat in their games always been an addition, even in the first Baldurs Gate. It was more like brake for them, and they were happy when they dropped this out.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

Neverwinter is very strange game for Bioware. Game about making games, but in 3D and not anime like RPGMaker. There was a lot effort puted in making this flatboat campaign.
And that's a reason why, first, they outsourced add-ons, and then sequel. Core Bioware audience and Bioware itself expected story-romances-characters. From their perspective NN was dead end. I don't follow Bioware twitter, but I don't believe they even remember this game.

 

[Tyranicon]

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

Yes, they have completely different design philosophies and priorities.

BioWare excels at narrative, characters, worldbuilding. They tell good stories with memorable characters (or at least they used to).

Larian is good at (some) mechanics and branching/reactivity. They make a good simulation of the tabletop experience (which honestly kind of makes them perfect for BG3).

The problem is that BioWare got ship-of-theseus-ed, and Larian's colorful worlds with chatGPT-level writing is clearly meant for the Critical Role crowd.

 

[Poseidon00]

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

At the time it was released I was very much impressed by Neverwinter Nights on a technical level, from the animations to the toolset to how you could play the entire campaign as a low int nitwit barely able to speak Common, and I can't help but notice that none of those features ever made it into another Bioware game again, let alone got expanded upon. Even in NWN2!

 

[Ryzer]

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

At the time it was released I was very much impressed by Neverwinter Nights on a technical level, from the animations to the toolset to how you could play the entire campaign as a low int nitwit barely able to speak Common, and I can't help but notice that none of those features ever made it into another Bioware game again, let alone got expanded upon. Even in NWN2!

Too bad the game is total shit.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

Fun fact: at least one of the doctors (Ray Muzyka or Something) at the time was adamant BG should have been a turn-based game to preserve the “true D&D tabletop experience” and he was pressured by the rest of the team to give it up because RTS were the newest and hottest shit back then.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

Fun fact: at least one of the doctors (Ray Muzyka or Something) at the time was adamant BG should have been a turn-based game to preserve the “true D&D tabletop experience” and he was pressured by the rest of the team to give it up because RTS were the newest and hottest shit back then.

Ha! I known that! All good things in Bioware were rooted in doctors. That's why their departure was an abrupt end.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

Larian's interactivity references Ultima more than NWN, Swen is a fan of the games and mostly namedropped BG during the promotion for Original Sin 1 because he realized he was talking to zoomers. The novelty of interactivity felt much more accomplished in a 3d environment where characters could walk up to interactive elements instead of having them being "too far away from you to use that" like it often happened in the IE.

Larian and BioWare (or at least, old BioWare) excel at different things. And while I may admit that Larian does a lot of things well, it's absurd sense of humor and lol-tier writing basically make it not worth suffering through, for me personally.

Are they that different? My theory of Larian is that they're more-or-less what BioWare could potentially have become, if the Biodocs had cared more about gameplay than cinematics and not been afraid to take some risks. (Except that their games would have been RTwP rather than turn-based of course.)

You can look at Neverwinter Nights and see the path not taken. That game could have been the evolutionary stepping stone towards a BioWare "Divinity: Original Sin-like", but instead it was filed away as a historical curiosity.

Fun fact: at least one of the doctors (Ray Muzyka or Something) at the time was adamant BG should have been a turn-based game to preserve the “true D&D tabletop experience” and he was pressured by the rest of the team to give it up because RTS were the newest and hottest shit back then.

At the same time, let's not forget BG was meant to be an RTS.

 

[Gargaune]

Maybe there is a problem? RTwP with D&D mechanics has always been dumb. I play exactly know NN: OC, and I still think how this tedious game could be better with turn based combat.

Aside from the Infinity Engine influences, NWN's interest in co-op multiplayer would've also swayed the decision for RTwP at the time.

It's not just combat. You could blow up chests with fireballs in Neverwinter Nights. You could light torches and set traps. It was a step towards holistic system design of a kind that Larian would later embrace, that BioWare immediately backed away from.

Like I've said before, NWN was a comprehensive attempt to "bring D&D to the computer", actual D&D as opposed to just having D&D-based videogames. That's why you had co-op multiplayer with DM support, the extraordinary Toolset, and a bunch of other systemic developments. And this is speculation on my part, but I also believe it's why they recycled the name, with the earlier SSI NWN and FRUA being attempts to similar ends way back before BioWare's title. Obsidian carried on with the same formula in NWN2, but sort of walked things back a bit with their priorities, favouring singleplayer over other aspects.

And yes, in this respect, BG3 is more of a successor to NWN than it is to BG - its relation to the Infinity Engine games is a tenuous branding exercise, revisiting a standard setting and pointlessly adding on to a completed plot, but WotC's and Larian's angle is that same "bring D&D to the computer" once again, except now it's more focused on the dramatic elements that make D&D popular today, the "Critical Role approach."

you could play the entire campaign as a low int nitwit barely able to speak Common

There's nothing all that fancy about the feature, one which only appears in the OC anyway, it's just an Int < 8 check, the problem is that it's extremely tedious to have to double up all the player dialogue. It can get even hairier to manage the flow if you have to combine with other conditionals, it's just altogether a giant pain in the ass.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Maybe there is a problem? RTwP with D&D mechanics has always been dumb. I play exactly know NN: OC, and I still think how this tedious game could be better with turn based combat.

Aside from the Infinity Engine influences, NWN's interest in co-op multiplayer would've also swayed the decision for RTwP at the time.

This multiplayer in NN was always bothered me. I means, scene exist to this day. There are servers full of devoted people. Other bunch still make modules. But Bioware supposedly had dropped NN a year or two after release.

After Neverwinter we got KOTOR and Jade Empire. At that time everybody had an obsession with consoles and the end of gaming on PC. NN was too ambitious, too complicated for those dark times. I think that history of Dragon Age development is also a story how this company lost its interest with everything that was not casual and not romanceable.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The heavy emphasis in MP wasn't always there. Sure, it was a thing in IE, but NWN went almost MMO-ish because of how crucial the DM component for Vampire the Masquerade Redemption was. Nobody talked about the main game, just the DM component for MP. Plus MMOs looked like they were going to replace the entire gaming scene back then. Those were dire times.