Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dragon Age Dragon Age: The Veilguard Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
1,258
Location
Germania
Video games don't have great writing and never will. They have serviceable writing at best. If you want great writing, then read a novel.

That said, I do think the ME series has some interesting lore, rememberable characters and compelling plotlines for a video game. The problem is that Bioware either tainted or abandoned most of it by ME3.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,818
Video games don't have great writing and never will. They have serviceable writing at best. If you want great writing, then read a novel.

Give it time. Video games have a high production threshold to pass before solodev catches on for writers who want to explore an interactive medium.

Writers are inherently lazy creatures, part of the reason why we didn't get real jobs in the first place.

Once the convenience tools are there, you'll see plenty of creatives flocking to the medium, and some of them will be good.

Solodev is self-filtering: those who don't have neccesary skills and stamina likely won't even get past the idea guy stage.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
14,910
an asexual lesbian
shocked-surprised.gif
 

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,809
Anyone seriously expecting DA4 to be good should just play SWTOR instead. Bioware is donezo
 

Lodis

Educated
Joined
Sep 1, 2021
Messages
220
Anyone seriously expecting DA4 to be good should just play SWTOR instead. Bioware is donezo
I don't think anybody is expecting it to be good except maybe coping redditors who are pretty much all that's left of Bioware's fanbase.
 

9ted6

Educated
Joined
Mar 24, 2023
Messages
903
Anyone seriously expecting DA4 to be good should just play SWTOR instead. Bioware is donezo
I'd say at this point it's looking just about as unlikely DA4 will be released as it's unlikely to be good.

Very likely to be complete unmitigated disaster if it does launch, though, and it'll be fun watching the devs jump through hoops passing the blame on ists, phobes, and each other.
 

Slaver1

Savant
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
346
This game will be so gay it will pop out of the monitor and molest underage male family members. After you install Dragonage Dreadwolf none of the icons on your desktop will align straight; your taskbar itself will curve in a vertical fashion. Your Email address will be spammed with so many propositions from every gay nightclub on Planet Earth and other planets you never knew existed that your account will end up permanently cancelled. IF the rapidly deteriorating degenerates who are working on this title are even able to produce a game at this point every byte of it will be dripping with so much depravity it will cause spontaneous gender transformations, the urge to slaughter Christians, straight to gay conversion and sudden unabating lust for troons.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,509
Location
Vareš
"Not even" the first one? ME1 was basically cool ideas with very poor execution. Pretty much everything about the game, be it the writing or different gameplay elements, was either shallow or hollow. Or both. In ME2 they refined it a lot and delivered a tighter, much better game in pretty much every department. Scrapped a bunch of stuff that didn't really work in the first game anyway and would likely never work, and improved vastly on the things that were promising. As a result ME2 was a competently written, much more tightly designed and enjoyable action game with some minor RPG elements to spice things up.
ME2 is neither a good RPG, nor a good action/shooter/adventure and does not improve upon ME1. At most you can say it's a "sidegrade".

On the gameplay side you a bland cover shooter:
1. The introduction of ammo; it makes no sense in the world of ME and even the writers know that considering their lore reason for the change is so stupid and they know it. Talks about "DPS" even for stuff like snipers for example.
2. Ammo also exacerbates the cover shooter issue
3. Introduction of "heavy weapons", from grenade launchers to reaper tech to blackhole guns that all use the same "energy cell" ammo.
4. Useless Classes; on the higher difficulties you essentially need Miranda with you at all times and others who can use warp/overload to strip the multiple layers of armour on every single enemy in the game. Once the armour is stripped, the enemy dies way too fast for biotics to work at all so Adept doesn't work. Remember the days you could send fully armoured Krogans flying into the air with biotics?
5. Gameplay changes added tons of narrative issues & plot holes. ME1 was pretty good with narrative cohesion in almost every aspect (I'm not including dialogue options in that). For example, the new droids & heat sinks being used in areas that shouldn't have access to them (i.e. Jacob's loyalty mission)
6. Global cooldowns, not just the one used like in ME1 which negatively affected gameplay as well

ME1 combat on highest difficulty rewards positioning, ability use and speccing yourself & party members
ME2 combat on highest difficulty is stripping 2-3 levels of armour waiting for ability cooldowns on enemy after enemy and conserving ammo
ME3 combat is ME2 but much more refined, won't go into specifics here but the fun, action combat they're clearly going for is at it's peak here

The only improvement I can think of is enemy AI, and when the level design was at it's best, it provided some decent thinking instead of mind numbing cover shooting. Tali's loyalty mission when you meet Kal Reegar & the final fight on Horizon come to mind. However, the quality there is still bogged down by the cover shooting mechanics that haven't been ironed out. In contrast, level design in ME3 was consistently good to decent all around apart from some misses like the final mission, without being as bogged down by monotony.

It reminds me of the Witchers, the second game does a sidegrade/downgrade into a new system where both have their flaws (instead of improving on the first) and then the third games combat is much better than the second (for what they were going for).

On the narrative side, ME2 has a retarded plot that also destroyed any progress in what's supposed to be a trilogy and has some of the most retarded story moments in all 3 games. There are no sidequests apart from random shit you find on random planets that are also shallow. The loyalty quests are just checklists & daddy issue drama. It also goes into the "chosen one" thing where Shepard can do anything without an actual reason of why he can do it in ME1. Improvements came only in the character department where you get more personal instead of most characters being information dumps for their respective races (ex. Wrex was the only exceptional character in ME1 imo).

With all the downgrades/sidegrades, and a few actual improvements, I don't see how ME2 can be "an improvement in virtually every department".
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
Man, it is looking more and more like, when this game comes out, will feed memes for the next 10 years the same as Mass Effect Andromeda did.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
Probably we reached the gay singularity and the game identified itself as a tranny and as alot of trannies like to do, the DVD decided to escape oppression by jumping Bioware's office window.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,962
Pathfinder: Wrath
Man, it is looking more and more like, when this game comes out, will feed memes for the next 10 years the same as Mass Effect Andromeda did.

The thing is Andromeda doesn't even fuel meme for longer than 1 year or so. It's completely mediocre and bland in everything its trying to do and its nipped in the bud by EA

This too will very likely be the same fate.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,771
Man, it is looking more and more like, when this game comes out, will feed memes for the next 10 years the same as Mass Effect Andromeda did.

The thing is Andromeda doesn't even fuel meme for longer than 1 year or so. It's completely mediocre and bland in everything its trying to do and its nipped in the bud by EA

This too will very likely be the same fate.
1 year? Try 1 month, tops
 

notpl

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 6, 2021
Messages
1,634
Video games don't have great writing and never will. They have serviceable writing at best. If you want great writing, then read a novel.

Give it time. Video games have a high production threshold to pass before solodev catches on for writers who want to explore an interactive medium.

Writers are inherently lazy creatures, part of the reason why we didn't get real jobs in the first place.

Once the convenience tools are there, you'll see plenty of creatives flocking to the medium, and some of them will be good.

Solodev is self-filtering: those who don't have neccesary skills and stamina likely won't even get past the idea guy stage.
In order for a good writer to make a video game he would need to exist in the first place. Since it is no longer 1960 or earlier, this is an impossibility.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
ME2 is neither a good RPG, nor a good action/shooter/adventure and does not improve upon ME1. At most you can say it's a "sidegrade".

Your post sounds reasoned but there's a lot of things you say that stick to your perception of the writing/lore or never explain and wave away as obvious. But let's agree that it's not a "good RPG" - I'd argue that it's not an RPG at all. It's an action with some RPG elements that add flavour.

1. The introduction of ammo; it makes no sense in the world of ME and even the writers know that considering their lore reason for the change is so stupid and they know it. Talks about "DPS" even for stuff like snipers for example.
2. Ammo also exacerbates the cover shooter issue
3. Introduction of "heavy weapons", from grenade launchers to reaper tech to blackhole guns that all use the same "energy cell" ammo.
4. Useless Classes; on the higher difficulties you essentially need Miranda with you at all times and others who can use warp/overload to strip the multiple layers of armour on every single enemy in the game. Once the armour is stripped, the enemy dies way too fast for biotics to work at all so Adept doesn't work. Remember the days you could send fully armoured Krogans flying into the air with biotics?
5. Gameplay changes added tons of narrative issues & plot holes. ME1 was pretty good with narrative cohesion in almost every aspect (I'm not including dialogue options in that). For example, the new droids & heat sinks being used in areas that shouldn't have access to them (i.e. Jacob's loyalty mission)
6. Global cooldowns, not just the one used like in ME1 which negatively affected gameplay as well
1. The point I'll grant is that yes, the story "explanation" of why ammo exists in the first place was silly. But from a gameplay mechanic standpoint it served a very clear purpose - forced you to switch between weapons and prevented you from using the same gun all the time during protracted engagements. And other things like that.

2. You never defined "the cover shooter issue" therefore I don't know what is exacerbated. I take it you don't like cover shooters - cool. I don't either usually. One of the ME series strengths is that they're basically cover shooters that are acceptable and still fun for players who usually never play cover shooters.

3. And this is a problem why? I mean, I understand that this is silly in terms of worldbuilding but gameplay-wise these worked fine.

4. "on the higher difficulties" - you refer to that a few times including later when you compare the three games and mention armor. I believe the problem is shit balancing of higher difficulties and not "useless classes", and poor difficulty level balancing is something that Bioware has always done ever since their games started to have adjustable difficulties.

5. Look. ME story was always full of holes and undercooked. The Mass Effect worldbuilding fell apart when you poked a stick at it since the first game and kept being like that ever since. It was always a collection of sometimes cool sci-fi tropes and concepts put together in a world that really made barely any sense.

I don't get how can we talk about "narrative cohesion" and complain about ammo clips when we're talking about a world where biotics exist but have no real impact on the world, you're a super powerful (reportedly) SPECTRE agent but that has no real impact on the world and the interactions people you meet, "the council" is a group of three doofuses etc etc. It's all pulp that requires a lot of suspension of disbelief to stand straight.

I'll reiterate: The Mass Effect games never had good writing or believable worldbuilding. The plot holes you mention in ME2 - I could spend days writing up all the fundamental ridiculous problems with the setting that were introduced in ME1 and always waved away. I don't think the series ever really gunned for serious narrative consistency or proper worldbuilding and therefore I think it's probably best not to judge it for it.

6. You'll need to substantiate that statement with something - I personally don't see the negative affect.

It seems to me that your core issue is that you want/expect a specific kind of a game with a specific set of design choices and ME2 is simply not it. This is fine and that's your preference, but the problem is that you're trying to elevate your personal preference to something that looks like an objective assessment of quality and that's just not really working out.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,509
Location
Vareš
But let's agree that it's not a "good RPG" - I'd argue that it's not an RPG at all. It's an action with some RPG elements that add flavour.
I agree it's it's not even an "RPG", maybe if I reallyyyy stretch my definition. But my main point was that it wasn't an "improvement on every element of ME1" like the post I replied to claimed.

1. The point I'll grant is that yes, the story "explanation" of why ammo exists in the first place was silly. But from a gameplay mechanic standpoint it served a very clear purpose - forced you to switch between weapons and prevented you from using the same gun all the time during protracted engagements. And other things like that.
From a gameplay perspective, it didn't work. That's why if I even waved away my hate for a shit cover shooter by even accepting it as a "sidegrade". I've played through the game multiple times on the highest difficuly and easier ones, only once have I ever had a problem with ammo. The heat sinks are lying around randomly all the time, and the enemies will drop them too, and that was even using an infiltrator who's restricted to a sniper and smg. On the other hand, ME3 caused more ammo issues despite you being able to equip all the guns you want (with the added weight mechanic). That worked because I took the risk of choosing less weapons for faster cooldowns. That's my whole point, if you're going to destroy the unique & interesting part of the combat, make it better, which is what ME3 did not ME2.

2. You never defined "the cover shooter issue" therefore I don't know what is exacerbated. I take it you don't like cover shooters - cool. I don't either usually. One of the ME series strengths is that they're basically cover shooters that are acceptable and still fun for players who usually never play cover shooters.
The cover shooter issue is exacerbated by my other points. Only once throughout the whole game needed to leave cover because the mechanic that requires you to leave doesn't work plus global cooldowns. So it's sit in the same piece of cover --> wait for global cooldowns --> kill all enemies in the wave --> repeat. This was not an issue in either ME1 or ME3.

3. And this is a problem why? I mean, I understand that this is silly in terms of worldbuilding but gameplay-wise these worked fine.
I can conceded this point, despite being retarded. It wasn't in ME1 or ME3 (a far better version of ME2), so just another example of a big part of gameplay that's not an "upgrade to ME1".

4. "on the higher difficulties" - you refer to that a few times including later when you compare the three games and mention armor. I believe the problem is shit balancing of higher difficulties and not "useless classes", and poor difficulty level balancing is something that Bioware has always done ever since their games started to have adjustable difficulties.
No, again, this is not a problem in ME1 or ME3. This is purely an ME2 problem and again goes back to my main point of talking about all the major parts of ME2 that are not a "direct upgrade to ME1. Although biotics are fucked even in lower difficulties in ME2 due to the limited moments you can use them.

5. Look. ME story was always full of holes and undercooked. The Mass Effect worldbuilding fell apart when you poked a stick at it since the first game and kept being like that ever since. It was always a collection of sometimes cool sci-fi tropes and concepts put together in a world that really made barely any sense.
ME1 was still relatively internally consistent. ME2 goes more ridiculous about it, which again isn't an "upgrade". Although to really get into it would require an entire separate conversation dissecting the story.

I don't get how can we talk about "narrative cohesion" and complain about ammo clips when we're talking about a world where biotics exist but have no real impact on the world, you're a super powerful (reportedly) SPECTRE agent but that has no real impact on the world and the interactions people you meet, "the council" is a group of three doofuses etc etc. It's all pulp that requires a lot of suspension of disbelief to stand straight.

I'll reiterate: The Mass Effect games never had good writing or believable worldbuilding. The plot holes you mention in ME2 - I could spend days writing up all the fundamental ridiculous problems with the setting that were introduced in ME1 and always waved away. I don't think the series ever really gunned for serious narrative consistency or proper worldbuilding and therefore I think it's probably best not to judge it for it.
You were never a "super powerful SPECTRE" in ME1. You were a top human soldier, yes, who was in the right place at the right time to be able to get yourself to the end of the game with the help of a select few. In ME2, "he's a bloody icon".

Then do it. ME1 is still much more consistent. But as you've shown, you think all of them are ridiculous, so unless you're claiming the internal consistency of ME2 is better it doesn't go against the original point of my previous post.

6. You'll need to substantiate that statement with something - I personally don't see the negative affect.
Global cooldown which further exacerbates the cover shooting in ME2 is not an upgrade to the ME1 system. Again, ME3 did it better despite using that global cooldown because that can be considered an upgrade, not ME2.

It seems to me that your core issue is that you want/expect a specific kind of a game with a specific set of design choices and ME2 is simply not it. This is fine and that's your preference, but the problem is that you're trying to elevate your personal preference to something that looks like an objective assessment of quality and that's just not really working out.
Wrong. I never talk against ME3's combat despite it being different than I want/expect so your little thesis there doesn't mean anything. My core issue is that ME2's combat is at best a generic, middle of the ground cover shooter which is not an upgrade in ME1, and ME2 is not "much better in pretty much every department" to ME1.


In ME2 they refined it a lot and delivered a tighter, much better game in pretty much every department.
Production values really influence you that much? With the Legendary Edition your point holds even less weight now.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom