Dwarf Fortress

[hello friend]

In Tolkien's works, you had all those poems and songs, so would it have been the same if the books had some shallow high level abstraction for that?

No. It would have been better.

"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! Pages of Etc!"

 

[Cassidy]

Maybe he's too bright for his own good. I stopped paying attention to the updates when he was musing about making tree leaves fall to the ground in a realistic manner.

Some "too bright for their own good" people can be great game developers if there is someone else to give them design goals so they won't spend years on insignificant details that add nothing to the game but they must do because they have autism. Adding worthless randomly generated poetry to a game like this in great need of a lot of core gameplay, performance and UI improvements makes as much sense as the shit Chris-Chan did.

 

[Perkel]

Maybe he's too bright for his own good. I stopped paying attention to the updates when he was musing about making tree leaves fall to the ground in a realistic manner.

Actually it is in game now. That led to implementing fruits same way (beside stepladder). So for example instead of using ladders to get apples you can just wait so apples will fall from trees and pick them from ground because framework from leaves was there in first place.

Some "too bright for their own good" people can be great game developers if there is someone else to give them design goals so they won't spend years on insignificant details that add nothing to the game but they must do because they have autism. Adding worthless randomly generated poetry to a game like this in great need of a lot of core gameplay, performance and UI improvements makes as much sense as the shit Chris-Chan did.

In case of UI design there was recent modding brake-trough and it seems like soon we will have proper ui for this game i posted also earlier that people are working on proper 3d visualization that looks awesome already.

in other words Toady won't need to do shit anymore. Modding community will sort out this.

 

[Jagged Appliance]

Although it's ultimately Toady that is squandering the potential of Dwarf Fortress, some blame must go to fanboys like Perkel and Porky for applauding the pointless trivialities added to the game in place of real improvements.

 

[Chamezero]

If all fanboys disappeared Toady would just procedurally generate them so we can't really blame anyone else.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Although it's ultimately Toady that is squandering the potential of Dwarf Fortress, some blame must go to fanboys like Perkel and Porky for applauding the pointless trivialities added to the game in place of real improvements.

People keep explaining to you that those things you call trivialities are actually an important part of the game, but you just don't see the big picture. It's like you want to take Lord of the Rings and reduce it to an RTS like Stronghold. DF isnt about combat + economy + whatever else you think is important, it's a fantasy world simulator which attempts to simulate all the aspects of life. Most of these aspects would fall under your "triviality" label. And yet, they are all important parts of life and together, combine to make life as interesting and deep as it is. And in DF, they all tie into the gameplay.

 

[Raapys]

To many of us those things are autistic details which add little or nothing to the gameplay. To you they're not; fine. But don't try to make it sound like they're integral to the enjoyment of the game.

To me, DF is an excellent base-management sim due to its ridiculous array of, for the most part, well-implemented features. Certainly far in excess of any other game. It's not the larp potential that makes it good, not the detailed implementation of stuff that would work just as well for gameplay with an abstract implementation that would take a fraction of the time. The best parts of DF were made in the first few years when he was still working primarily on basic gameplay options.

 

[Alienman]

I wish I could play this. I have watched a few LPs and it seems fantastic. But I just can't get passed the UI and graphics. And everything looks so abstract to me

 

[Gerrard]

We need an "Autism" thread tag.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

To many of us those things are autistic details which add little or nothing to the gameplay. To you they're not; fine. But don't try to make it sound like they're integral to the enjoyment of the game.

To me, DF is an excellent base-management sim due to its ridiculous array of, for the most part, well-implemented features. Certainly far in excess of any other game. It's not the larp potential that makes it good, not the detailed implementation of stuff that would work just as well for gameplay with an abstract implementation that would take a fraction of the time. The best parts of DF were made in the first few years when he was still working primarily on basic gameplay options.

In some ways, I can understand where you guys are coming from, because I was there too. When I first heard about DF, I tried it, was horrified by the ASCII, left, came back some time later, tried it with a graphical tileset and a guide, go addicted, some days in thought it was the best game ever made, then eventually discovered the limitations and started following the development. When I first saw the stuff he was working on then, I had the same exact reaction: wtf, combat is too easy, enemy AI is too stupid, the economy is broken, and he is working on what, bees and leaves?

But then, later on, I was reading interviews with Toady and game previews about the game as well as question and answer sessions he does, and I started seeing the game in a completely different light. The problem wasn't with him, it was that I had a completely different scope in mind than he did. All I wanted then was, like you, the deepest fortress management game ever with a balanced combat, economy, AI, etc. But to him, that was just one small part of an entire world generator/simulator.

And when I was reading this stuff, it also occured to me, that 1) Toady is very smart, in a way many devs aren't, and 2) he has worked on a lot of personal games no one ever heard about since childhood (including Chapter 1 to which DF is Chapter 2), and he has used the experience from those games for DF in a way that everything he does pretty much is very well thought through and planned out.

A lot of you guys think he is "autistic" and that's why he is adding all these unimportant things such as simulating the leaves falling or procedural poetry or bee farms. In other words, you think he's doing it just to be a perfectionist, to implement every detail of the world out of some OCD-driven temptation. But this is far from the truth. These things he adds do indeed contribute to gameplay or will do so in the future. I read before that the way they design these features is by sitting down in the beginning (him and his brother) and writing some typical fantasy stories. Then from those, they figure out what kind of features DF would need to allow that kind of story to happen procedurally. So these are all tied to gameplay right from the start.

Now you might not be interested in the kind of gameplay many of these create, like reading through historical poems describing real world events or having falling leaves/fruit affect your ability to track someone in the wild or sustain yourself and so on, because you just want a deep strategy game, but they are definitely not just some autistic details. And you can't really abstract it out in a high level way too much, because then you lose a lot of emergent possibilities. The more something is a high level abstraction, the less variety in behavior there will be.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I wish I could play this. I have watched a few LPs and it seems fantastic. But I just can't get passed the UI and graphics. And everything looks so abstract to me

I couldn't play it with ASCII either, if that's what you are talking about. You should try some of the graphical tilesets available on the official website (modding forum), Obsidian tileset is the prettiest now I think if you can get it running for the latest version, and then Phoebus. For UI, use Dwarf Therapist community mod, it makes managing your dwarves much easier than the in-game UI. And definitely find some online guide to walk you through the basics, otherwise it's too hard to learn on your own. After that, the game will blow your mind for a while.

 

[jcd]

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[Konjad]

Your mom certainly didn't head in the right direction.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Things like needing to water dirt to make mud for farming plants, or having water physics implemented, also would seem pretty autisic and retarded until you put it all together and get the ability to flood a room to make it farmable and then drain the water away elsewhere, or giant contraptions to drown goblins or whatever.

I honestly have no idea how fruit falling from trees could be relevant as opposed to simply abstracting it into letting you pick fruit in the season it's falling off anyways, but maybe he's going somewhere with this (animals being able to eat the fruit off the ground or pests ruining the fruit before it falls would be interesting for example, and give you incentives to gather the fruit earlier.)

 

[Night Goat]

It's a catch-22. We need a game like this made by a non-autistic person, but no non-autistic person would ever make a game like this.

 

[jcd]

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[Gozma]

I feel like it's pretty much impossible to do fun "production chain" gameplay (where a lot of what you're doing is trying to optimize how stuff undergoes raw material -> processing -> distribution (plus waste disposal, plus how multiple production chains intereact, plus plus plus) in a 3D build space. It's just too easy to dig out a big cube and throw production spots in it randomly and have it still be OK because a slightly suboptimal path in 3D doesn't waste that much time, while in a 2D space a bad path can be an extremely long detour. 3D fortress mode was fun for a while for big engineering projects (e.g. safely piercing a multi-layer aquifer) but the basic production stuff is deathly boring. Of course I haven't played a new version in years so I dunno if any new big sources of interest have sprung up.

 

[Machocruz]

This game is one of the most magnificent beasts I've every played, my game of forever. But the one problem I have is that he keeps adding then removing features I like, like the aforementioned having to wet soil before you can farm on it. Now it is only necessary for stone floors. Having to wet soil added another consideration to plotting out your fortress based on the landscape. The geography isn't as interesting as when there used to be underground rivers, chasms/magma chasms. The caverns don't cut it, and if you want any surface magma you are mostly limited to extremely high peaks unless you want to keep generating worlds and hope you get lucky with flatter land. Even above ground seems to have less interesting/chaotic geographical formations. Also don't like how he changed the embark finder to provide less detail about stone layers. With every new release it seems like it's harder to find a site with coal and iron ores, without having to DFHack every site that may have potential, and without setting mineral scarcity to very low and having every layer look like clown vomit.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Libraries and passing of knowledge are in:

"So you knew you were getting libraries, right? I mean, there are all these books being carried around by traveling artists with no easy way to read them, and we can't have that. Also, it was a little odd to imagine a library packed with art books and the occasional rambling necromantic tract -- we're in the process of solving that problem in the usual way: I just got through with engineering and chemistry, such as they are. The outlines are ready for mathematicians, philosophers, historians, geographers, doctors, naturalists, and astronomers. I'm using the same master-student framework for them as they work on research projects, and they'll also consult existing books at their home libraries, of course -- a good thing, since the early tests without books led to the expected and repeated tragic loss of knowledge and the constant rediscovery of previously known facts without much progress toward advanced techniques. It has been entertaining building up the different knowledge branches, interacting with our year 1400 cut-off, and no doubt screwing up various simple ideas and so forth."

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

Right now this spread of knowledge won't impact what you can do in the game (for example limit what you can make/build in fortress mode), but sounds like that's something he wants to eventually tackle in a later release. That could lead to very interesting dynamics if implemented well, for example some civs becoming very advanced while others languish in primitive conditions, the player in adventurer mode possibly spreading knowledge to help shape the world, mage-type adventurers traveling round the world searching for rare arcane books in ancient libraries and abandoned ruins, and so on.

 

[Perkel]

And this will also be directly tied to embarks types which will come later.

For example build a temple embark won't be probably good embark to set up mining colony or creating smithing as they probably won't know about that stuff.

 

[NotAGolfer]

We need an "Autism" thread tag.

No need, just put it somewhere in the forum title.

 

[Luka-boy]

DF players aren't actually autists, just brave souls in the middle of their journey to enlightenment. It's only natural that some most lose their minds on the way when trying to achieve a level of comprehension of things above most human standards, but the rewards if they pull it off. Oh the rewards.

 

[jcd]

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[Karwelas]

Anyone up for a succession game?

Succesion game? I'm kind of newbie in that matter, but this mean we change who play one fortress each year/dwarf life/whatever?

 

[jcd]

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[Karwelas]

I think it is cool idea but I have that weird feeling that on my watch goblins/forgotten beasts/CARPS will happend and everyone will blame me. Like always. But... Losing is fun.