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Eador Genesis

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,783
When I got that quest it was Iron-something (actually this wasn't for a key now that I think about it, it was something else). However, while looking around the map, the province wasn't actually there. The province I needed to look in had no name, just -----. Try looking for a ---- province.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,652
Location
Poland
When I got that quest it was Iron-something (actually this wasn't for a key now that I think about it, it was something else). However, while looking around the map, the province wasn't actually there. The province I needed to look in had no name, just -----. Try looking for a ---- province.

Yes, I saw a -- province but thought its a bug. Thanks for the information then, its really close to me. Lets see what guards the key...
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,675
Location
Ingrija
Oh yeah, thats the stuff. I assume the province type changes randomly?

I would presume it is ought to be hardcoded as a swamp province. It would make little sense for a province called Bogs and inhabited by a hydra to be a sunny hillside :D
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,652
Location
Poland
Well DR mentioned Iron something so I assumed its randomly picked from few preset provinces and challenges.

Fought and killed the hydra. Was very weak. A lot of hp, true, but abysmal resistance and defense stats , defeated by a single web and a single sleep...
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
I swear that web is OP, can't believe how crucial it is in early game and what ridiculous thing you can do with it
Also so funny what i thought about the playing optimal game when i started and how i play now. Incredible deep game.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Guys, how do the shards work scaling-wise? I'm conquering my fifth and don't have access to any T2 or higher units apart from the occasional merc. Wondering when does the enemy get access to these and how does it work in general.

Also, I'm playing the good guy. Just met Oinor and his stance towards me is neutral - I take it that he won't attack me? What are the benefits of befriending other masters?

EDIT: Just met Oinor in this fifth shard. Don't really know what to do: he won't accept my offer for an alliance, he won't attack me either. We've just been passing turns, and I can't reach the other master cause Oinor's lands block my way. Seems like they don't attack each other.

EDIT2: They did attack each other, finally. The other lord made a breach I promptly used to reach his fortress, in the meantime Oinor finally accepted an alliance. Then I chose to draw straws for the shard and won. Good times, a thing though: if I'd pick the battle option, would it affect Oinor's stance towards me on the astral or make me more evil?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
3,524
That was the shard I completed the other day. He starts a war with you once you defeat the other guy. Just declare war on him and kill them both
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
EDIT2: They did attack each other, finally. The other lord made a breach I promptly used to reach his fortress, in the meantime Oinor finally accepted an alliance. Then I chose to draw straws for the shard and won. Good times, a thing though: if I'd pick the battle option, would it affect Oinor's stance towards me on the astral or make me more evil?
no, masters fight over shards in gentleman's fashion. He wont hate you if you fight him,as long as you are good towards mortals.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So i tried to make archery a universal skill...

It's actually pretty easy, by replacing the relevant skills from "Class: 3" (scout) to "Class: 0" (any). It also needed to be made on items, but it's the same thing.

The... annoying... detail, is that the game hardcodes the projectile 'animation' that will will represent the projectile according to class. Accordingly, a warrior with a bow will shoot flaming meteors out of his bow... probably some (non)logic of the sort "projectile weapon and not a scout? Must be a wizard with a wand".
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
Yeah, SCO's probably missed some sort of a variable or another. I don't think this is hardcoded in any way, it'd be completely illogical - the only sensible solution is to tie the animation class to the weapon class, and I don't know why would the game's developer do it any other way if the game has an inventory system.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I also think it makes no sense. There is this:
"/14
Name: Tactician;
Talent1: 1008, 2
Talent2: 999, 1
Talent3: 0, 0"
(tactician is the scout/commander crossclass)

On the hero_class.var, that i suppose it's a 'setting' that is modified on class change (i suspect they are effects, which is what skills are made of, so i thought i could add those as a skill upgrade and things would work without modifying the items file. Apparently not.

Game could also use some user interface gruntwork. For instance, the popup menus not having focus selection on the most common thing so you have to move the mouse, or that damn 'searched but didn't find anything' message to be made optional like the 'didn't move a hero this round'.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,675
Location
Ingrija
EDIT2: They did attack each other, finally. The other lord made a breach I promptly used to reach his fortress, in the meantime Oinor finally accepted an alliance. Then I chose to draw straws for the shard and won. Good times, a thing though: if I'd pick the battle option, would it affect Oinor's stance towards me on the astral or make me more evil?
no, masters fight over shards in gentleman's fashion. He wont hate you if you fight him,as long as you are good towards mortals.

And as long as you don't attack him without a formal declaration of war, I must add. Treacherous attack sinks the relationship faster than anything.
 

Interesting

Educated
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
39
Questions and Thoughts regarding Eador Genesis.

Yeah, I played it. Yeah, it is worthy of the praise. But...

1. What are the design decisions regarding all sorts of scaling (level, progression, difficulty, reward, time and effort spent, etc)?

2. I saw a few people mentioning AI "cheating" by having artificial/abstracted extra resources, combat, territorial expansion, units level ups and so on. Thats the impression I got, that the AI always have an easy time and you are always on a strict limited schedule at wich you need to achieve certain things with your character power and economy and that somehow the AI is impervious to all the challenges and complexities involved in a very suspicious and unacceptable way.

3. Im curious about asserting every aspect of AI in every difficulty level, so I wonder if there is any method for that (removing fog of war, being able to see enemies entire units, entire garrisons, entire economic, the choices its making, the results of its battles and so on). Any way for me to scrutinize what the AI is doing from turn 0, at every difficulty level? I dont care if its some debug, developer, hack, cheating tool. I just want to see the engine working under the hood to make sure Im not getting some Maxwell demon in the second law of thermodynamics.



So far it seem like the same game breaker design as in another russian little gem Space Rangers 2: the world scaled based on character total value on equipments and so on. Being followed by the rain, running in a threadmill type of thing. Inability to mitigate the difficulty through progression by artificial design hooking it up to provide a scripted constant difficulty/balance breaks the game, rendering every action and choice and effort ultimately fruitless.

For Eador, it doesnt matter if a single guy did it and if its better than everything else in the last 10 years on its genre.
If the designer doesnt know the basic premise that nothing should revolve around the player character/avatar, then he has no business designing a game. No abstractions. Everything has to be simulated and independent from the player. Organic, not artificial. Balance has to be situational, rather than artificial "cheats" or "scaling" behind the hood. For all I care, even Risk against the AI provides more strategic value than this, if its the case of scaling/cheating.
You have 50% of the complexity based on game mechanics, units, items, spells, terrain, choices, economy expansion and those are truly great value, if Im playing the world "solo", or against human players. But if Im playing against the computer (the campaign) then you take a huge dump in the other 50% by making the AI opponents cut corners and play by different rules.


On another hand. 21 pages of posts and nobody made a comment about the authors view of the cosmology of the universe and the underlying messages, meaning, thematic, narrative derives from an almost extinct perspective/belief system wich I dare not mention. On the opposite, you play anything "mainstream", watch any video, series, listen to any music, turn the tv, everything you do and you get a completely different view point, or heavily twisted than the one you get in Eador. Its truly a pure, uncorrupted, indie title. People would get killed literally and figuratively for much less social/religious commentary than is present in Eador. Noone read the artistic expression of the author and his underlying message with the game?
 

sher

Educated
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
81
AI is not scaling to player at all, unfortunately. You can see without fog of war during defense of your world. You'll be able to see that it can lose heroes in fights with neutrals, how it conquers provinces depending on their strengths and so on. It's hard to tell if AI has regular gold injections due to semi-random events system, in my experience it has not, it can be crushed economically and no miracles out of nowhere at all. Even if it has some injections it'd be fair since it hires useless guards all the time so it'd be fair to compensate such flaw somehow. It looks like AI has some starting bonus and that's it.

One thing to consider. On lowest difficulty you're fighting creatures with ~1/3 HP in comparison to highest difficulty, have vast starting resources, other bonuses and have SAME bloody tools at your disposal. So if you suck then you SUCK, it's not a poor game design or whatever cruel things brave enough to make it so obvious. You can continue to whine or you can become better - it's only your choice to make. And what will happen if you'll encounter not AI but player who knows how to play?
 

Interesting

Educated
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
39
My hope on Codex decreases by 1.
If I only get the usual stereotyped view points and common sense why bother?

Anyone here has access to the official community with official replies from the developer on the design of his game pertaining to the topics: scaling and AI game mechanics/behaviour?

This wouldnt be the first time it happens, a crack in the diamond. Back in the Space Rangers 2 topic it was the same dozens of pages and not a single repplier perceived the true design of scaling in that game.

Is there any way to remove the fog of war? Through any kind of meta game methods. For the purpose of analysing AI behavior.

I want to achieve the same purpose, through verifying AI heroes skills, army, its provinces and stronghold. Basically, I want the tools and conditions to JUDGE if things are simulated AS THEY SHOULD BE, or if they are simulated in an unfair way, or worse yet, if actions and results of the AI are simply abstracted. I want to know wich ones, at what stages and in the exact measure.

Thanks Codex
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
Start a custom game and turn off fog of war dumbfuck. That codexian enough for you?
edit: No it wont allow for deeper testing though. for better or worse

edit:

btw when doing so one will see that the ai can easily lose an early battle making it useless the rest of the game (i remember people talking about non expanding AI's... im pretty sure this is the reason)

If there is one design flaw in the game it is, IMO, the fact that the early game is not only WAY to hard (relative to the rest of the game) but that it matters way to fucking much. Lose one of the starting expansion battles? Game over


Still a 98% rated game in my book
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,652
Location
Poland
My hope on Codex decreases by 1.
If I only get the usual stereotyped view points and common sense why bother?

Anyone here has access to the official community with official replies from the developer on the design of his game pertaining to the topics: scaling and AI game mechanics/behaviour?

This wouldnt be the first time it happens, a crack in the diamond. Back in the Space Rangers 2 topic it was the same dozens of pages and not a single repplier perceived the true design of scaling in that game.

Is there any way to remove the fog of war? Through any kind of meta game methods. For the purpose of analysing AI behavior.

I want to achieve the same purpose, through verifying AI heroes skills, army, its provinces and stronghold. Basically, I want the tools and conditions to JUDGE if things are simulated AS THEY SHOULD BE, or if they are simulated in an unfair way, or worse yet, if actions and results of the AI are simply abstracted. I want to know wich ones, at what stages and in the exact measure.

Thanks Codex

Dont know official stuff but from my experience AI cheats in several things and this cheating doesnt seem to be dependent on how you as a player are faring. I have been crushed a few times without regard to my well doing so after some time AI will come for you.

AI definitely cheats on guards hiring costs and their maintenance but it suffers normal rebellions with normal effects of those. AI can and will lose to strong guards though. Sometimes even up to three times as I have witnessed.

AI seems to have a limited amount of money (not counting the guards), if you press it hard it will field weaker units. AI definitely is not cheating on unit experience since it doesnt get super experienced units. AI doesnt seem to cheat on unit tiers it gets. Once saw AI fielding minotaurs while having a maze so perhaps its exploring those.

AI very probably gets free hero experience however since I dont think its finding and exploring new locations - at least always its lands are full of those, even of easy lairs in core territories. Or maybe all hero experience comes from conquering new lands since AI almost definitely cheats here - I have many times witnessed AI being victorious in impossible situations or without expected losses. So yes, AI gets a boost in conquest.

AI isnt building many buildings in its provinces however, so its possible that it is simply stockpiling all that money since honestly buildings arent very cost effective. No idea how AI can afford to field as many heroes otherwise as it does since it always seems to have 3-4 running around.
 

Monkeyfinger

Cipher
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
779
If there's one thing that spoils my enjoyment of the game the more I play it, it's the uber guard contracts. Every time some guy gets an ogre contract, a stone golem contract, and a high level undead contract, and puts 1 in his capital and 2 in other provinces so it's a pain in the ass to contain him, I feel like just quitting Eador. I hate having to grind to beat those things.
 

DakaSha

Arcane
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
4,792
If there's one thing that spoils my enjoyment of the game the more I play it, it's the uber guard contracts. Every time some guy gets an ogre contract, a stone golem contract, and a high level undead contract, and puts 1 in his capital and 2 in other provinces so it's a pain in the ass to contain him, I feel like just quitting Eador. I hate having to grind to beat those things.

There is no doubt that those things can be real pains in the asses (and possibly just plain bad game design) but keep in mind that almost all if not all enemies do have a weakness.

However i havent played the campaign much and it may be more of a pain there since you arent guarenteed to have the necessary spells and shit
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,675
Location
Ingrija
I've been doing test runs with hero's hp/st/moves/morale frozen in artmoney, cleaving through any provincial defences and conquering 2 provinces per turn all while swimming in xp. By the time I meet the AIs on a small-size 3-player shard (roughly turn 15 on average), they only have like 3-5 conquered provinces and their primary heroes are 10 levels behind mine. So, while the AI is not exactly the paragon of honesty (with all those free guards and suspiciously many heroes), he most definitely does not level scale to player.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Is it my impression or the (cheating) AI is very vector oriented? Put something a hero-fortified territory on a place where the AI thinks is the shortest route to your HQ; and you never see them try alternate routes (thank gawd).

I don't think i can handle this game. A strategy with a rogue-like saving system makes me very edgy.
 

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