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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Caim

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Finished Castle Sol. I thought I was being clever sniping one of those teleporting knights from a level above him, only for him to teleport behind me and nothin personnel kid me off of the ledge and jumping after me to finish the job. I got him, but I still had to do a lap of shame around the castle so that I wouldn't miss any hidden items (there were some runes there). The boss wasn't very difficult, but I did feel like the castle was very empty.

Also explored a fair chunk of the Consecrated Snowfield, aka Shaded Woods 2: Cold Edition. They reused some bosses here, including one I very much did not expect. Also got to Mohg's domain, and even at my high level the rune farm is still very effective.
 

Lutte

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Going from 30 to 40 vigor is a 50% increasee in your total HP while a corresponding ten points in you weapons stats might give you a 10% damage increase at early weapon upgrade levels.
.
And 10% is optimistic because most unupgraded weapons don't have that great of a stat scaling (the letter shown is a vague indicator, just because something has a B doesn't mean it's fantastic), you get the most benefit from added offensive stats when you're deep in your weapon upgrade level.
An example from my STR run :

7KieWwT.jpg


jR2R5FE.jpg


Grafted colossal C in STR, +187 in stat scaling, Greatsword at B, +177 in stat scaling. Grafted at C scales better, it's because I have it upgraded at a higher level than the GS ( somber stones are so much more usable ).

Btw for regular weapons, at low levels I highly recommend you make a run to redmane as early as you feel you can handle to grab the fire whetblade. As long as you're not fighting something like a wyrm which has high fire resistance, it is better damage than standard, heavy, quality or keen attunements. Those are only good at high offensive stats and weapon upgrade level.
Also, it's really cool to see the hand spiders throw tantrums when they're getting lit, caria manor is less intimidating when you see them whimpering on their back every time you hit them.

Buying a game to train me to play a game I suck at. This feels like the sunk costs fallacy. But I've grabbed Dark Souls remastered from the playstation store. I'll see how it goes.

Thing is, DS1 is a very easy game in comparison, people overstated the challenge of early souls games when they started getting popular and confuse "challenge" for "punishing". Punishing is the right word I would use to describe DeS and DS1, DeS more so. DeS has a hefty health penalty for losing your human form, less so with the cling ring but then you lose a slot. DS1 halves your HP if you get hit by curse status. They're games that easily kill you when you don't pay attention to the environment or spam attacks. Dying means your progress in an area is reset unless you feel confident enough to skip things and memorize layouts. Kill an npc you shouldn't kill and live by the consequence. All of this is summed by : punishing. Make mistakes, get punished. Mechanically, those games don't present a major challenge. Enemies have very predictable, fixed patterns of attack, with very slow telegraphs compared to what is done in DS3 and Elden Ring.

Playing those will teach you the foundation of souls games, which the modern games still have, but with much more leniency when it comes to the need to press dodge at the exact right time. Medium shields are more effective, so any build can play turtle behind a shield and not just STR builds. In DS3 and ER any random mook can break your guard easily if you're not on a greatshield.
As you ease up to the play style of commited attacks and learn the patterns of enemies, you'll feel more confident in dropping shields and defenses and just go all out on the offensive. Then you'll be more ready to suffer through the current era of attacks with feints/varied delays with the same original telegraph, relentless combos, attack tracking.. the early souls games have so little attack tracking, you can even avoid most attacks just by running back and forth and circling around enemies without dodging or blocking, just keep the camera unlocked and run around. Oh sure, this is still technically possible in modern souls games, but where it was a viable strategy in the early games, only a few attacks are worth sprinting away over dodging these days because of the massive tracking.

Overall, I feel that as From went deeper into the mechanical challenge aspect, they also lost the punishing aspects of their games. DeS made you farm if you used too many healing items, had world tendency, HP reduction on losing human form and even a boss that could delevel you, DS1 had things like curse status, enemies you couldn't hit if you didn't have the right consumable (ghosts) or weapon, could make you deeply regret overextending in an area you shouldn't be in because of the inability to teleport before you get the lordvessel, while in a game like ER, you can just bash your head over 3000 times on something if you want to, there's never anything to regret, checkpoints are always 2 seconds away from where you were, teleport whenver you want and they even invented areas in which you can't attack NPCs which is mind numbing and a Todd Howard move IMHO.

Something was lost in the soul of souls games. The pursuit of MLG 360 roll'd'it was done at the cost of losing the core philosophy of souls games and what made the adventure of exploring levels feel tense, slow and methodic.
By the haligtree, I was grabbing sites of graces by running blind to be done quicker. Would I dare do this in a modern equivalent of The Depth in a game in which I can't just go somewhere else when I want? no. I still remember the feels when I got cursed there. Ouchy.
 
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TheHeroOfTime

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They don't present a major challenge today. To us, after we played all the sequels and games alike (Nioh). But back then we struggled with the Flamelurker, the Maneaters, Ornstein & Smough, Artorias, Manus, Raine, Alonne, etc as much as we struggle with Memenia today.

Doesn't change the fact that Bloodborne, DS3, Sekiro and Elden ring bosses are harder though. They are deliberately faster, aggressive and have more moves than older bosses. And in the case of Elden ring, the have more bullshit than ever.
 

Bigg Boss

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Yeah I just want an ending that lasts longer than five seconds. I think I am not autistic enough for this series and it's deep lore.
 

mediocrepoet

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Yeah I just want an ending that lasts longer than five seconds. I think I am not autistic enough for this series and it's deep lore.

imo if you play Souls games for the story/lore, you're doing it wrong. There's stuff there, for sure, but it's generally background flavour. I look at them more like a continuation of older games like arcade games and 8/16 bit console games where gameplay was all that really mattered and any story bits were sort of tacked on. For example:



What other context do you need? So, someone blew up the Elden Ring, are you a bad enough Tarnished to find it or fix it or something? Go out and kill some shit.
 

Andnjord

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They don't present a major challenge today. To us, after we played all the sequels and games alike (Nioh). But back then we struggled with the Flamelurker, the Maneaters, Ornstein & Smough, Artorias, Manus, Raine, Alonne, etc as much as we struggle with Memenia today.
To a certain extent yes, but no boss in Dark Souls or Demon Souls cockblocked me for days on end the same way Malenia did. She and a few others are just on another level.
Sure, dying to the Taurus demon as much as I did my first time seems scarcely believable today, but it was a case of 5 to 6 deaths, the dozen or so deaths it took me to beat Fume Knight felt unprecedented, but with ER it's like 20+ for each major boss.
 
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mediocrepoet

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They don't present a major challenge today. To us, after we played all the sequels and games alike (Nioh). But back then we struggled with the Flamelurker, the Maneaters, Ornstein & Smough, Artorias, Manus, Raine, Alonne, etc as much as we struggle with Memenia today.
To a certain extent yes, but no boss in Dark Souls or Demon Souls cokblocked me for days on end the same way Malenia did. She and a few others are just on another level.

Orphan of Kos and Gael are calling. I actually had a harder time with those two than Malenia.

Orphan of Kos is the only Soulsborne boss I've never beaten. I'm sure I could, but at the time, I was like: Fuck this, I'm just going to go kill Gehrman and Moon Unit and get out of here.
 

dacencora

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Ok after reading the latest updates on this thread, I think I will go back and play Demon’s Souls first. I’ve always kind of wanted to, anyways. Plus, now I can finish my Atelier Sophie playthrough anyways lol.
 

Andnjord

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They don't present a major challenge today. To us, after we played all the sequels and games alike (Nioh). But back then we struggled with the Flamelurker, the Maneaters, Ornstein & Smough, Artorias, Manus, Raine, Alonne, etc as much as we struggle with Memenia today.
To a certain extent yes, but no boss in Dark Souls or Demon Souls cokblocked me for days on end the same way Malenia did. She and a few others are just on another level.

Orphan of Kos and Gael are calling. I actually had a harder time with those two than Malenia.

Orphan of Kos is the only Soulsborne boss I've never beaten. I'm sure I could, but at the time, I was like: Fuck this, I'm just going to go kill Gehrman and Moon Unit and get out of here.
I remember doing Gael on my fifth try, though I also remember feeling in a state of grace during that fight and dodging and timing like a god. Didn't happen often.

Never beaten Orphan of Kos either though.
Only because by the time the DLC came out I wasn't living with a flatmate who had a Playstation anymore, so I never got to play it :negative:

But even then, we're talking about a few outliers here. Nameless King, Ariandel, Alonne Knight, Manus and Artorias...That's a dozen or so spread over multiple games and DLC. In Elden Ring it seems like every other major boss can represent a major wall that requires dozens of deaths on your playthrough. At the very least the density of these 'hardest bosses EVAR' is through the roof and we don't even have any DLC yet, as they tend to feature the hardest bosses of each game.
 
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It's not that they don't play it. They are Japanese and the gooks are better at videogames than us
demon's souls flopped in japan because the japanese found it too hard with the president of sony getting stuck in the first area for two hours and calling it an unbelievably bad game
the game got a second chance due to how popular imports were, otherwise it wouldn't have even seen a western release.
 

Kruno

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It's not that they don't play it. They are Japanese and the gooks are better at videogames than us
demon's souls flopped in japan because the japanese found it too hard with the president of sony getting stuck in the first area for two hours and calling it an unbelievably bad game
the game got a second chance due to how popular imports were, otherwise it wouldn't have even seen a western release.
I remember playing the game as a grey import from Hong Kong before anyone heard of it.
 

mediocrepoet

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But even then, we're talking about a few outliers here. Nameless King, Ariandel, Alonne Knight, Manus and Artorias...That's a dozen or so spread over multiple games and DLC. In Elden Ring it seems like every other major boss can represent a major wall that requires dozens of deaths on your playthrough. At the very least the density of these 'hardest bosses EVAR' is through the roof and we don't even have any DLC yet, as they tend to feature the hardest bosses of each game.

Even in Elden Ring, the ones that people complain about tend to be either optional, at the end of an area/the game, or both. I think having challenges that could actually cockblock you are better than having some milquetoast forgettable crap that everyone can beat just because they want to. That's the gaming equivalent of a participation award and already represented by 99% of the industry.
 

Andnjord

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Even in Elden Ring, the ones that people complain about tend to be either optional, at the end of an area/the game, or both. I think having challenges that could actually cockblock you are better than having some milquetoast forgettable crap that everyone can beat just because they want to. That's the gaming equivalent of a participation award and already represented by 99% of the industry.
Just to make it clear, I'm not complaining about the difficulty, just ambivalent about it. While I do mostly enjoy it, I pity the poor souls who've never played a Souls game and got sucked in by the hype of its massive success. Hence all the sunbroing I've been doing now that my brain has (mostly) adapted to its difficulty.
But I do stand by my position that Elden Ring difficulty on average is far ahead that of previous souls games, previous experience or not. I think Lutte made a pretty good point in differentiating between past games being punishing as opposed to hard.

Also, as should be abundantly clear by this thread, there is no such thing as an 'optional' major boss in a game like this. People will either kill them or be left with the feeling they never truly completed the game. The're only optional for speedrunners and challenge runs on youtube ;)

Actually, just as a curiosity, have many people have skipped major bosses and never killed them? You can vote by rating this post
rating_rage.gif
if you did or
rating_prestigious.png
if you didn't.
 

mediocrepoet

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Even in Elden Ring, the ones that people complain about tend to be either optional, at the end of an area/the game, or both. I think having challenges that could actually cockblock you are better than having some milquetoast forgettable crap that everyone can beat just because they want to. That's the gaming equivalent of a participation award and already represented by 99% of the industry.
Just to make it clear, I'm not complaining about the difficulty, just ambivalent about it. While I do mostly enjoy it, I pity the poor souls who've never played a Souls game and got sucked in by the hype of its massive success. Hence all the sunbroing I've been doing now that my brain has (mostly) adapted to its difficulty.
But I do stand by my position that Elden Ring difficulty on average is far ahead that of previous souls games, previous experience or not. I think Lutte made a pretty good point in differentiating between past games being punishing as opposed to hard.

Also, as should be abundantly clear by this thread, there is no such thing as an 'optional' major boss in a game like this. People will either kill them or be left with the feeling they never truly completed the game. The're only optional for speedrunners and challenge runs on youtube ;)

Actually, just as a curiosity, have many people have skipped major bosses and never killed them? You can vote by rating this post
rating_rage.gif
if you did or
rating_prestigious.png
if you didn't.

In Elden Ring only?
 

NJClaw

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Actually, just as a curiosity, have many people have skipped major bosses and never killed them? You can vote by rating this post
rating_rage.gif
if you did or
rating_prestigious.png
if you didn't.
In my first playthrough of DS2 I skipped Lud and Zallen (because I had a shitty build and the Frigid Outskirts broke me) and summoned NPCs for the Burnt Ivory King (because I had a shitty build and needed 10+ hits to kill a single knight). On the next run, I actually distributed stats in a non-retarded way and discovered powerstancing, which made both encounters a joke.

If cheesing bosses also counts as skipping them, on my first run of Demon's Souls I cheesed the Spider Armor with a bow because I was genuinely terrified of that thing.
 

Vibalist

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I skipped all the DLC in DS1. Didn't even realize it was there.

EDIT: And I think if you're one of the rare Elden Ring players not looking up stuff on Google, it's entirely possible to not realize there are optional areas towards the end.
 

mediocrepoet

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If cheesing bosses also counts as skipping them, on my first run of Demon's Souls I cheesed the Spider Armor with a bow because I was genuinely terrified of that thing.

I killed Storm King with a bow and hiding behind rocks. I never even heard of Storm ruler until years later. :lol:
I was always like: Well, what if you run out of arrows?
 
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People who keep calling DaS3 or ER challenging or difficult, or who keep barking "git gud" whenever someone criticizes the design of those games are missing the central fucking point: Difficulty is only a positive thing when it's well designed.

You can arbitrarily make anything difficult in dumb ways: e.g. you can require that someone jumped 5,000 times before fighting a boss in order to win, or you can make a boss have random attacks every single fight, etc. This doesn't make something challenging in a good way.

Yet DaS3 and ER are challenging in exactly this kind of way. Bosses have a completely different physical reality than your character: they do not have stamina restraints, they can have nearly infinite combos, they have hitpoint bars orders of magnitude higher than you do, they do tremendously more damage, they move completely unrealistically while being so huge, their attacks magically follow you and are AoE in most cases, their range magically changes to huge distances regardless of actual weapon reach.

In addition to this, many attacks are badly animated, ie there is very minimal telegraphing, such as windup animations, or windup animations are fake and disconnected from the actual attack, which comes out at ridiculous speed. This makes these games much tougher for many players who don't have the best reflexes, and is a strange design choice in 2020s, when many gamers are no longer in their 20s.

A good video game combat system should be one that has consistent and logical general principles, that the player can get better at by practice. And once they get better at it, they theoretically should be able to face any new enemy and know how to fight them. More challenging enemies should just be better at those general principles and force the player to hone their own skills within that text. But in ER, every new boss fight exists in a vacuum, and forces the player to die a bunch of times to learn the custom bullshit of this particular boss.
 

Villagkouras

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I killed Isshin using Cheat Engine. Motherfucker broke me.

Overall, Elden Ring is harder than anything they've done BUT nothing compares for me to the first hours of original Dark Souls when I didn't know how to play the game. It was after Capra Demon and putting the game aside for a week after too much rage and misery that I got the hang of it.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 were easy (I've played DeS much later though). DS3 was a joke. Bloodborne was so-so, I've platinumed the thing, but first levels game me trouble. Sekiro was frustrating, but I didn't play it correctly, I started a new playthrough after ER and I found it easier, but dropped it after losing steam around Ape.

For me Nioh is much much MUCH harder than Souls series, I could never get into this game.
 

Andnjord

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If cheesing bosses also counts as skipping them, on my first run of Demon's Souls I cheesed the Spider Armor with a bow because I was genuinely terrified of that thing.

I killed Storm King with a bow and hiding behind rocks. I never even heard of Storm ruler until years later. :lol:
I was always like: Well, what if you run out of arrows?
Exact same thing. It's only when DS3 came out, and people were comparing the Yhorm Giant to him that I realised I had missed something. No wonder this time From placed an NPC in the manor explaining the gimmick to you AND the spear is litteraly impossible to miss.
 

mediocrepoet

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If cheesing bosses also counts as skipping them, on my first run of Demon's Souls I cheesed the Spider Armor with a bow because I was genuinely terrified of that thing.

I killed Storm King with a bow and hiding behind rocks. I never even heard of Storm ruler until years later. :lol:
I was always like: Well, what if you run out of arrows?
Exact same thing. It's only when DS3 came out, and people were comparing the Yhorm Giant to him that I realised I had missed something. No wonder this time From placed an NPC in the manor explaining the gimmick to you AND the spear is litteraly impossible to miss.

When people said that I was like: how the hell is this guy like the Storm King? You can't snipe him with a bow, that fight was retarded. I had to google it to find out.
 

TheHeroOfTime

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I killed Isshin using Cheat Engine. Motherfucker broke me.

Overall, Elden Ring is harder than anything they've done BUT nothing compares for me to the first hours of original Dark Souls when I didn't know how to play the game. It was after Capra Demon and putting the game aside for a week after too much rage and misery that I got the hang of it.

Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 2 were easy (I've played DeS much later though). DS3 was a joke. Bloodborne was so-so, I've platinumed the thing, but first levels game me trouble. Sekiro was frustrating, but I didn't play it correctly, I started a new playthrough after ER and I found it easier, but dropped it after losing steam around Ape.

For me Nioh is much much MUCH harder than Souls series, I could never get into this game.

Nioh is hard, but the cool thing is that you can be as broken as the bosses are. Even more, specially on Nioh 2. Leaving aside some elements, the Nioh games are more hack and slash than souls like.
 

NJClaw

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If cheesing bosses also counts as skipping them, on my first run of Demon's Souls I cheesed the Spider Armor with a bow because I was genuinely terrified of that thing.

I killed Storm King with a bow and hiding behind rocks. I never even heard of Storm ruler until years later. :lol:
I was always like: Well, what if you run out of arrows?
Exact same thing. It's only when DS3 came out, and people were comparing the Yhorm Giant to him that I realised I had missed something. No wonder this time From placed an NPC in the manor explaining the gimmick to you AND the spear is litteraly impossible to miss.
Literally impossible to miss, you say? :cool:
I fixated on Rykard and completely ignored my surroundings. For half the fight I waited for his attacks to then smack him once with my claymore. After a while I saw the shiny orb and when I picked it up I died inside.
 

Caim

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Come to think of it, does Mohg count as one of the two demigods you have to beat in order to get into Leyndell? It's possible if you use the Varre trick to get to his area.
 

mediocrepoet

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Even in Elden Ring, the ones that people complain about tend to be either optional, at the end of an area/the game, or both.
I don't see how being optional or an area boss absolves ER's bosses of being continuous craptacular combo cunts.

Well, you see it's reasons. :P

I don't think they're as bad as some people with one exception that I've noted before. Otherwise, since they're literally blocking nothing behind them, it's alright that they spike in difficulty. YMMV
 

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