From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[NJClaw]

I've looked at the clawmark seal and it is listed here as having slightly worse incant scaling than pure faith seals. 318 at 80 FTH/80 STR to the Erdtree seal's 359 at 80 FTH.

Yeah no shit it is worse than a seal with a fucking S in Faith, lol

STR lets me use weapons, but it doesn't let me use them significantly better. The weapons that it qualifies me for don't seem (on paper or in practice) better for me than the ones I'd need a ton of physical stats for.

So what you're complaining about is that you have no reason to increase Strength if you don't want to use Strength weapons? Sure, I guess?

Look, you're at your first souls game and you're experiencing that "this was so hard two weeks ago, now I'm using X and Y and it's starting to make sense... Z and U suck big balls because they're weaker!" feeling. We've all been there. Strength opens up an entirely different playstyle that allows you to experience the game in a slower and more deliberate way. You can grab the Ruins Greatsword and say "wow, why should I wait for the charged R2 of this weapon when I can spam 200 Rapier's R1 instead?" and there isn't much to say about it other than: it's just a different way of playing the game.

A bastard sword needs 16 STR. A claymore only need 16 STR and 12 DEX. Those weapons should only be good in the early game and should be discarded as soon as I clear my first proper dungeon and get something that's all special and glowy and shit. That's how RPGs work.

Well, RPGs also suck big hairy balls most of the times.

In these games the longsword usually is one of the easiest weapons to use, which makes it "the strongest" in the eyes of new players, and you can start the game with it.

But the question of if these cheap to use, freely available weapons are even worse than the ones you fight a boss ten times to get or do a "quest" for is so complicated that nobody with expertise in the matter can give a definitive answer. Felt differences are slight. Statistical software and build calculators are needed to project a difference of 10-15% in AR when maxed out. Or you could just say fuck it and keep using the greatsword. It shouldn't be this way. I'm extremely frustrated!

Wait until you realize damage stats are a lie and you're obsessing over it only for the sake of it.

 

[Bloodeyes]

A claymore only need 16 STR and 12 DEX. Those weapons should only be good in the early game and should be discarded as soon as I clear my first proper dungeon and get something that's all special and glowy and shit. That's how RPGs work.

That is never how any of the Souls games have worked. Never.

For all the shit I give to Miyazaki on various subjects, I'll forever be thankful for his decision on that particular one. He always wanted for the player to be able to find a piece of equipment, at any point in the game, and use it and keep using it throughout the rest of the game.

Then that means that the best weapons are the ones with the lowest stat requirements to use. If all the weapons are balanced it makes zero sense to use something that takes 35 DEX and 17 STR to use when you could tear shit up with a greatsword that only takes 16 STR and have double the health, or be able to cast high level spells. That simply can't be true. Those two weapons can't be equal in capability. Yet they seem to be.

 

[NJClaw]

Then that means that the best weapons are the ones with the lowest stat requirements to use. If all the weapons are balanced it makes zero sense to use something that takes 35 DEX and 17 STR to use when you could tear shit up with a greatsword that only takes 16 STR and have double the health, or be able to cast high level spells. That simply can't be true. Those two weapons can't be equal in capability. Yet they seem to be.

Dark Souls Elden Ring: the only thing that matters is fashion

 

[Bloodeyes]

Then that means that the best weapons are the ones with the lowest stat requirements to use. If all the weapons are balanced it makes zero sense to use something that takes 35 DEX and 17 STR to use when you could tear shit up with a greatsword that only takes 16 STR and have double the health, or be able to cast high level spells. That simply can't be true. Those two weapons can't be equal in capability. Yet they seem to be.

Dark Souls Elden Ring: the only thing that matters is fashion

So is there any point in going for gear progression beyond fashion? I don't need to perfectly optimize my build to have fun but I don't want to nerf my health, stamina, carry weight and the spells I can cast all to get a sword that looks cooler. Every point spent qualifying for something has an opportunity cost, therefore higher cost weapons should be better. The benefit of the mixed build should be that it gets worse casting but better weapons, or the same casting, better weapons and worse everything else. But if the weapons being better or not even leaves room for debate then the huge sacrifices made in other areas aren't worth it.

That leaves 3 builds that make any practical sense: INT builds, FTH builds and bleed builds (maybe).

If I'm right about this then I may be done with this game after finishing the story. It doesn't seem worth replaying and trying builds in such a seemingly busted system. I can't be right though. This game has millions of fans. I've consumed hour of content devoted to it and read dozens of wiki pages. Yet I can't find a reason for my caster to be able to use a colossal sword other than I think it would be cool. That isn't enough. I won't cripple him just to make him look like a badass.

I'll just go back to my original character, Mustache Man the wretch who became a paladin and finish with the game.

 

[Dhaze]

A claymore only need 16 STR and 12 DEX. Those weapons should only be good in the early game and should be discarded as soon as I clear my first proper dungeon and get something that's all special and glowy and shit. That's how RPGs work.

That is never how any of the Souls games have worked. Never.

For all the shit I give to Miyazaki on various subjects, I'll forever be thankful for his decision on that particular one. He always wanted for the player to be able to find a piece of equipment, at any point in the game, and use it and keep using it throughout the rest of the game.

Then that means that the best weapons are the ones with the lowest stat requirements to use. If all the weapons are balanced it makes zero sense to use something that takes 35 DEX and 17 STR to use when you could tear shit up with a greatsword that only takes 16 STR and have double the health, or be able to cast high level spells. That simply can't be true. Those two weapons can't be equal in capability. Yet they seem to be.

No. It means the best weapon is the weapon you find the coolest. There's a good reason Fashion Souls became a rather famous thing; because "Oh that looks cool, I'm gonna keep it!" dwells at the very heart of these games' design.

Putting aside for an instant the fact that 'RPG' has become an umbrella adumbrating nearly every game there is, save for those with cars or guys who kick a ball, I think you've fundamentally mistaken what manner of game Elden Ring is.

Succintly, here's what I would suggest:

– Pick a weapon you think looks cool
– See what attributes it scales with
– Pump those attributes
– Go whack some knight or monstrous bird over the head

Because you can dive into the nitty-gritty of every value, and see how to optimize this and how to get 2 more points of Attack Rating and bla and bla and blablabla. You can. But you'll quickly realize that in the grand scheme of Elden Ring things, it means shit-all, because it'll probably amount to killing a boss in seventeen hits rather than eighteen. If that!

It doesn't seem worth replaying and trying builds in such a seemingly busted system.

Aside from getting to replay through one's favorite parts of the game, replaying through a Souls game with different builds has always been about seeing how the game plays with different weapons or spells. It was not really about seeing which is better.

 

[Grunker]

 

[Bloodeyes]

No. It means the best weapon is the weapon you find the coolest. There's a good reason Fashion Souls became a rather famous thing; because "Oh that looks cool, I'm gonna keep it!" dwells at the very heart of these games' design.

Putting aside for an instant the fact that 'RPG' has become an umbrella adumbrating nearly every game there is, save for those with cars or guys who kick a ball, I think you've fundamentally mistaken what manner of game Elden Ring is.

Succintly, here's what I would suggest:

– Pick a weapon you think looks cool
– See what attributes it scales with
– Pump those attributes
– Go whack some knight or monstrous bird over the head

Because you can dive into the nitty-gritty of every value, and see how to optimize this and how to get 2 more points of Attack Rating and bla and bla and blablabla. You can. But you'll quickly realize that in the grand scheme of Elden Ring things, it means shit-all, because it'll probably amount to killing a boss in seventeen hits rather than eighteen. If that!

Thing is, if I go with the weapons I think look cool they're all stupid expensive. The curved greatswords look awesome. I love the look of dismounter, or Bloodhound's fang. But for the dismounter it would take me 9 more levels to qualify for it than the bastard sword. That's not a small difference. I could spend those levels qualifying for a raft of new spells, getting heaps more FP, being able to wear heavier armour or carry a second weapon for different enemy types. I'd be significantly weaker using that sword. It does look cool and I'd love to try it but I can't justify the expense. That's just a tame, early game example.

What about Morgott's cursed sword? That thing looks dope as hell. But it takes 29 more levels to qualify for that. No, that sure as hell isn't worth it for a marginal increase in AR, but you can't say that 29 levels wouldn't make a huge difference to my efficacy when spent on Vigor, Mind or Endurance or pumped into my INT or FTH. Not to mention it scales off two stats, so I'd need to level two things to keep its damage progressing. I love the look, the move seems fast enough. Can't sell it to myself. It's like buying luxury goods. Double or quadruple the price for a 10% increase in quality. Fuck that, store brand for me.

 

[NJClaw]

So is there any point in going for gear progression beyond fashion?

Each weapon category plays differently, and often even different weapons in the same category make for a different experience. There is gear progression in terms of higher damage numbers (Bastard Sword -> Claymore -> Banished Knight Greatsword -> Iron Greatsword -> Gargoyle's Greatsword), but that isn't too relevant because, usually, the weapon's moveset is more important than a (sometimes too) slight damage increase.

The benefit of the mixed build should be that it gets worse casting but better weapons, or the same casting, better weapons and worse everything else.

Again, it's all a matter of playstyles.

For example, I hate spells. They look great and all, but the AI can't handle them and the game simply isn't designed around you kiting enemies while blasting them from afar. Around 95% of everything that happens in the game is centered around a character fighting in melee, and spells more often than not lead to degenerate gameplay. Whenever I play with spells in a souls game, I end up not having fun. The only difference are (pseudo-)melee spells and buffs, which I consider fine. From the perspective of a non-caster character, your reasoning doesn't really do anything. But the fact that it's still worth it for a non-casting character to go full-Faith or full-Intelligence should give up pretty easily that for a caster things are even more skewed towards those stats.

That leaves 3 builds that make any practical sense: INT builds, FTH builds and bleed builds (maybe).

"Any practical sense" doesn't make any practical sense, though. Your build basically determines the difficulty settings you're playing on. If you want to play on easy mode, congrats, grab a greatshield and a rapier, the Blasphemous Blade, Moonveil, Rivers of Blood, or two Blood twinblades. But since there are people playing these games without blocking, without leveling, and without dying, I'm sure you can see that the challenge is part of the fun.

Not only that: it's also, once again, a matter of playstyle. If I enjoy playing with a colossal greatsword and Bloodhound's Step (I'm not talking about anyone in particular, Haplo), Strength will be the only stat I care about.

Analyzing these games while thinking that only the most optimized builds are relevant makes no sense, because it doesn't take into consideration these two points: (1) the challenge is part of the fun and (2) most people will just play with the weapons they enjoy.

Yet I can't find a reason for my caster to be able to use a colossal sword other than I think it would be cool. That isn't enough. I won't cripple him just to make him look like a badass.

It's not about "looking cool", it's about playing the game differently.

Sure, if you know you don't enjoy the slower playstyle that comes with bigger weapons then avoid them, but give them a try later down the line because they almost open up an entirely different game. Also, play Dark Souls.

 

[Haplo]

I've consumed hour of content devoted to it and read dozens of wiki pages. Yet I can't find a reason for my caster to be able to use a colossal sword other than I think it would be cool. That isn't enough. I won't cripple him just to make him look like a badass.

Its not ONLY about looking cool. Its about the feel of the weapon, what kind of impact it makes and how its moveset fits your playstyle.
I guess the scale is maybe a bit flattened in ER and there is a shitload of weapons in general (which leads to borders between categories a bit muddled and many weapons feeling a bit same-y).

But if you've played Dark Souls 1 before you'd more easily notice how vastly different weapons movesets and behaviours are. I cannot find words to describe how satisfying it felt to bonk! mobs (and bosses!) with a Zweihander's R2 signature pancake maker move. Particularly enemies that look tough and otherwise don't flinch much, like the stone giants - but with a 2-3 R2s they'll also be flattened on the ground...
Or well, the Black Knight Greatsword golf club launch...

Sadly the further games were progressively better "balanced" (and you can't really easily ragdoll large/heavy enemies, at least not without weapon arts or some such). Though I guess the Zwei's R2s really were a bit strong (with huge reach too) in DS1
Nowadays the competition between high end weapons is often based on which has the better Weapon Art. Not particularly a fan of this change (historically only some special weapons had powers like the "weapon arts" - like the Moonlight Greatsword or some dragon weaponry - but they were nowhere near as flashy and strong - and their use was limited - and could, for example, reduce the weapon's durability with each use).

 

[mediocrepoet]

But if you've played Dark Souls 1 before you'd more easily notice how vastly different weapons movesets and behaviours are. I cannot find words to describe how satisfying it felt to bonk! mobs (and bosses!) with a Zweihander's R2 signature pancacke maker move.
Or well, the Black Knight Greatsword golf club launch....

The first time I did these in Elden Ring, they still made me cackle, just like they always have. I also like staggering someone and then launching them back where they land flat on their back. Especially if it's some dexfag boss that does a ton of damage if you let them move.

 

[Bloodeyes]

perspective

I think saying that having a good build is just lowering the difficulty is kind of an excuse for the RPG mechanics of this game not making a lick of sense. For a game to really hook me into multiple playthroughs I shouldn't feel like I've made the best build on my first attempt, without reading a single guide or even knowing specifically what most of the stats did (I still don't know that). I know the skill ceiling is astronomical in souls games and that for many players a shit build will make no difference. That's fine for them but that's nothing to do with me. I'm years away from that kind of thing and unlikely to be playing long enough to reach that level. But I like making characters. I like the characters I make to be good. I want to be able to make a variety of good characters in a game with RPG mechanics.

I feel like in this game I already made the best character possible without getting into the borderline exploit one shot builds I see on YT: High vigor, medium mind and endurance, heavy armour, a shield, weapon requirements on physical stats and high FTH. I could try this again with another char and I can think of two other builds which may be as strong: The same only with INT instead of FTH and the same only instead with 22 FTH for spell access and medium high arcane and medium high DEX. I tried that last one and it was marginal, felt much weaker in damage and had less utility or durability than Mustache Man the 60 FTH chad. I can deal with other builds being a little weaker than that, but everything else I've looked at is like level 200 before it equals him.

I don't want to try an unlevelled run or any kind of challenge run really. I want to be able to make a variety of interesting characters that are each optimal in their own way. Why even have stats if I can't? Just have an actual difficulty setting. Just because there are people out there who can succeed with crappy builds doesn't excuse the presence of fundamental flaws in the game's RPG mechanics.

 

[NJClaw]

This being your first souls experience, you came in with the "I know nothing about the game and I'm getting wrecked left and right, I'm going to make a very strong character and pick whatever shit I think is best" mindset, and that's understandable.

However, that's not how everyone experiences the game, and I'd say it's not how most (forgive the cringe) "veterans" experience it. At least for me, putting aside challenge runs, it goes the other way around: I look at what tools the game offers and I say "I want to try a playthrough using X, Y, and Z", and then build the character around them, optimizing that particular playstyle.

For example, the last playthrough I finished I decided I wanted to use the Sword of St. Trina, Misericorde, Death's Poker, and Flame of the Redmanes. I built the character around those and had a lot of fun. Next, I plan to try a 99 Vigor/99 Endurance build, and then something centered around the Pulley Crossbow.

This is what makes the system replayable IMHO, not the "I'm going to try different ultra-optimized builds". Especially since what an "ultra-optimized" build is heavily depends on what makes the game easier TO YOU.

 

[Bloodeyes]

This being your first souls experience, you came in with the "I know nothing about the game and I'm getting wrecked left and right, I'm going to make a very strong character and pick whatever shit I think is best" mindset, and that's understandable.

However, that's not how everyone experiences the game, and I'd say it's not how most (forgive the cringe) "veterans" experience it. At least for me, putting aside challenge runs, it goes the other way around: I look at what tools the game offers and I say "I want to try a playthrough using X, Y, and Z", and then build the character around them, optimizing that particular playstyle.

For example, the last playthrough I finished I decided I wanted to use the Sword of St. Trina, Misericorde, Death's Poker, and Flame of the Redmanes. I built the character around those and had a lot of fun. Next, I plan to try a 99 Vigor/99 Endurance build, and then something centered around the Pulley Crossbow.

This is what makes the system replayable IMHO, not the "I'm going to try different ultra-optimized builds". Especially since what an "ultra-optimized" build is heavily depends on what makes the game easier TO YOU.

I mean, I'm still getting wrecked left and right TBH. In the 500 odd hours I've put into this game I've increased in skill, but I'm a long way from breaking the difficulty, good build or not. But some things make a character stronger not just for me, but for all skill levels. 40 vigor roughly doubles HP over 30 vigor. It's not a matter of opinion that that's one of the most efficient uses of attribute points there is, disregarding people so skilled they never get hit (as such outliers should be disregarded, as impressive as they are). If I spend those 10 points there I get way more of a return than going from a greatsword to a curved greatsword. Are curved greatsword better? I want them to be. They look better and they cost more. But the opportunity cost of getting one is astronomical. The vigor is just plain better unless I'm looking to challenge myself with a low HP run. But people who want a challenge will always find ways to make games harder for themselves. That's not a reason to have such obviously superior options in character progression.

Those same 10 points, if I already have the vigor, could go into endurance. The difference between 22 endurance and 32 is I can wear heavy armour and with a couple charms (arsenal charm or great jar's and the DR one) walk around with 45% or better physical DR. There are many damage types but even in this game most damage is physical. So with those 20 points I've quadrupled the physical punishment my character can take. That's so much better than any other way I could spend those points as to be a mandatory investment unless I'm doing a challenge run. If I go for a cooler weapon or a dual stat build (as I want to), I can't afford these 20 levels. Unless I lose the ability to cast spells, something that's extremely powerful in this game.

That's only 20 levels. Some requirements are a lot higher than that. A non caster could do it, but casting is so strong and useful. As it should be. But taking the costlier sword should be just as strong and useful in its own way. That would be a matter of playstyle then. Preferring melee over magic and so optimizing for melee by choosing the better but costlier weapon. Only the weapon isn't better, it's just different. This isn't balance. In making the weapons balanced the balance of the entire system is broken. I may just try curved greatswords anyway. They do look cool as hell and I'd always wanted to do a build for bloodhound's fang. Fuck it. Everything's made up and the stats don't matter. Fashion souls. Got it.

mediocrepoet Thanks for the rating fanboy. Just shows you can't handle being confronted with truth. Deal with it. You've been here long enough to know there are no sacred cows aside from Fallout and PS:T. If I think an aspect of this game is stupid I'm going to say so. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game. BTW the plot is also vague, anime garbage, the NPCs are mannequins, the quests aren't even quests and the world is as wide as an ocean but as deep as a kiddy pool. The game is amazing in its strengths (scale, visuals, polish, dungeon design are the main ones) but it's far from perfect. Many aspects of it are deeply flawed or completely absent. Like every masterpiece.

 

[Andnjord]

Deathclaws in Fallout are arguably the threat, and seeing them is enough to tell you that the path you're treading has the stench of death about it. There's no equivalent to them in Elden Ring. In fact it's much worse in Elden Ring since most enemies find themselves copy-pasted in almost every area of the game, usually without any visual difference whatsoever, giving not a hint as to their threat level. Meanwhile, if you see a Deathclaw in Fallout, you know there's no fooling around in that area.

[...]

They've not really gone off the beaten path, yet they're finding Smithing Stone[6] when they don't even have a Smithing Stone[3]. They're getting transported to the other side of the world, and wonder if they should be there, since it's quicker to get to this place than inside Stormveil Castle.

On the recycled enemies part, that criticism is absolutely valid for the second half of the game (I'd say from Altus Plateau and beyond) but all the dino-dogs, dino-crows, kindreds of rot, cleanrot knights and even Sellia's sorcerers would be completely new to a player coming straight from Limgrave through the trapped chest. Add to that the very clear stench of death the whole area has compared Limgrave, and you can't tell me From didn't try really hard to tell you that this is a dangerous area and that "yeah, you got there through a chest we placed that clearly said 'entraped in a transporter chest', it looks very far on your map to where you were before, and everything looks like hell compared to peaceful Limgrave, try and get back home quick, ok? No hate plz!"

Lots of players (most new to the franchise/style) often have no fucking clue where they're supposed to be. One minute they're steamrolling a boss, then fifty meters further they're getting bitch-slapped to hell by a knight next to the road.

[...]

They're searching for a logical progression through the game—and I don't think there is one. Strangely enough, it invites comparison to King's Bounty: The Legend, or Armored Princess.

But really it comes to this. It don't disagree that this game can have weird pacing issues in places, there's too much recycling, it's too long...what we're disagreeing on is the impact those issues have on the overall game experience. What I will say, is that I think you're overstating how much of an issue this is to new and recurring players. If you look at the achievement stats on steam, the completion rate for a game of this length is staggeringly high, most games are lucky if more than half get out of the tutorial, for example New Vegas only has 45% of the players reaching lvl10 ffs. Meanwhile Elden Ring has more people reaching the start of the endgame having killed Morgott, (49%!), 36% have killed Hoarah Loux (there isn't an achievement for killing Elden Beast, and you can't just add up the ending achievements as it would count repeat playthrough), so probably a similar amount finished the game, and 32% killed Malenia, an optional boss that's widely accepted as, to put it mildly, very hard by any reasonable standard!

Yes, a lot of players get lost and confused at various points into the game, but somehow the majority of them did push through and completed vast sections of a gargantuan game, so clearly it doesn't seem to be perceived as a major flaw of the game. Would the game have been better with less content, less recycling and more unique stuff? Absolutely. Would it have been better with a clearer sense of progression? Maybe, but the majority doesn't seem to see that as an issue. I think most people enjoy the sense of overcoming and making sense of a confused situation, especially in situations where the developpers didn't write an all-cap sign telling you "you shouldn't be there" beyond the (I think) very clear environmental cues. In fact, I think that by transporting you into these late areas early in the game it gives a stronger sense of progress having seen those areas at low level before coming back to them later at a more appropriate level.

For a game that has attracted a lot of new players unfamiliar with the genre it seems to actually do a really good job at guiding them and motivating them to progress quite far through it when you look at the actual numbers.

The game is probably too big for its good, so much so it can discourage repeated playthough, I can absolutely dig that. But I strongly disagree that it's too confusing and non-linear, those are, I believe, separate issues one could have with the game.

 

[Vibalist]

I agree with most of the above. However, the problem with Greyoll's Dragonbarrow specifically is that there's very little to distinguish it from the rest of Caelid. You enter it and think "hmm, this area is like everywhere else I've been. Look, it even has many of the same enemies, like that Dog-saurus over there that I know I can reliably curbstomp... FUCK, he has three times as much health as his normal counterpart. How'd that happen?"

It's a problem of communication. Something needs to indicate to the player that what he's facing here is late game shit, but when you're just facing the normal rats, bats and dogs that you always meet, it feels jarring and counterintutitive that they should be that much tougher than their cousins who exist just a stones throw away. Really, the only thing that indicates a serious change in difficulty is the dragons (which, admittedly, is a pretty serious indication). Even the landscape looks exactly identical to the rest of Caelid.

My theory is that FromSoft intended to put entirely different enemies here, but ran out of time and had to resort to placeholders like they did in Mountaintops. This would also explain why the encounterdesign is pretty basic and flat compared to most other areas. 10 identical dragons that now exist as basic mob enemy. An entire stretch with a bunch of dog-sauruses guarding absolutely nothing. It's clear to me something else was supposed to go down in this area. Maybe it was even supposed to have its own visual style. As it exists right now, it's one of my least favorite areas in the entire game.

 

[NJClaw]

That's only 20 levels. Some requirements are a lot higher than that. A non caster could do it, but casting is so strong and useful. As it should be. But taking the costlier sword should be just as strong and useful in its own way. That would be a matter of playstyle then. Preferring melee over magic and so optimizing for melee by choosing the better but costlier weapon. Only the weapon isn't better, it's just different. This isn't balance. In making the weapons balanced the balance of the entire system is broken. I may just try curved greatswords anyway. They do look cool as hell and I'd always wanted to do a build for bloodhound's fang. Fuck it. Everything's made up and the stats don't matter. Fashion souls. Got it.

If I gave you the impression I was arguing in favor of the game's balance, then I just couldn't put my thoughts into words.

I think your biggest mistake here is to analyze builds in terms of stats. In these games, builds aren't centered around stats, but weapons. Because your weapons determine what your character can do. Just like in Kingmaker you would describe your build starting from your character class and not your stats, here you would start from your armaments (and spells). Your character isn't a 60/10/50/99/13/9/9/7 that has to choose his weapons accordingly, but a Gargoyle Greatsword and Fingerprint Stone Shield user that has to shape his stats around that.

 

[Bloodeyes]

In these games, builds aren't centered around stats, but weapons. Because your weapons determine what your character can do. Just like in Kingmaker you would describe your build starting from your character class and not your stats, here you would start from your armaments (and spells). Your character isn't a 60/10/50/99/13/9/9/7 that has to choose his weapons accordingly, but a Gargoyle Greatsword and Fingerprint Stone Shield user that has to shape his stats around that.

Ok, that makes sense. So, I want to use a curved greatsword and a secondary piercing weapon. I also want to cast incantations because I like them a lot. I think my progression should be from bloodhound's fang and a rapier to morgott's cursed sword and a godskin stitcher. One handing both. Does this look like a reasonable stat progression for that playstyle? I've put DEX and ARC equal in the final stats because I'll get most of my melee damage from DEX, but most of my casting power from ARC. I would likely put a blood ash on the stitcher or could leave it keen. Charms would be golden scarab, Crepus' vial (actually breaks a lot of enemy AI, lots of free kills), green turtle (to compensate for low stamina when doing those tiring shielded stabs) and one free one that could be anything. Probably the DR one.


Lematte:

Spoiler

Level 50 target stats

Vigor: 26

Mind: 10

Endurance: 15

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 17

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 20

Arcane: 10

Level 100 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 20

Endurance: 18

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 20

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 28

Level 150 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 28

Endurance: 28

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 40

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 40

 

[mediocrepoet]

I agree with most of the above. However, the problem with Greyoll's Dragonbarrow specifically is that there's very little to distinguish it from the rest of Caelid. You enter it and think "hmm, this area is like everywhere else I've been. Look, it even has many of the same enemies, like that Dog-saurus over there that I know I can reliably curbstomp... FUCK, he has three times as much health as his normal counterpart. How'd that happen?"

It's a problem of communication. Something needs to indicate to the player that what he's facing here is late game shit, but when you're just facing the normal rats, bats and dogs that you always meet, it feels jarring and counterintutitive that they should be that much tougher than their cousins who exist just a stones throw away. Really, the only thing that indicates a serious change in difficulty is the dragons (which, admittedly, is a pretty serious indication). Even the landscape looks exactly identical to the rest of Caelid.

My theory is that FromSoft intended to put entirely different enemies here, but ran out of time and had to resort to placeholders like they did in Mountaintops. This would also explain why the encounterdesign is pretty basic and flat compared to most other areas. 10 identical dragons that now exist as basic mob enemy. An entire stretch with a bunch of dog-sauruses guarding absolutely nothing. It's clear to me something else was supposed to go down in this area. Maybe it was even supposed to have its own visual style. As it exists right now, it's one of my least favorite areas in the entire game.

That could be and is an interesting thought. Imo the worst part of the Dragonbarrow for inexplicably tough enemies is Fort Faroth's beginning with the soul crushing bats.

 

[Haplo]

I agree with most of the above. However, the problem with Greyoll's Dragonbarrow specifically is that there's very little to distinguish it from the rest of Caelid. You enter it and think "hmm, this area is like everywhere else I've been. Look, it even has many of the same enemies, like that Dog-saurus over there that I know I can reliably curbstomp... FUCK, he has three times as much health as his normal counterpart. How'd that happen?"

It's a problem of communication. Something needs to indicate to the player that what he's facing here is late game shit, but when you're just facing the normal rats, bats and dogs that you always meet, it feels jarring and counterintutitive that they should be that much tougher than their cousins who exist just a stones throw away. Really, the only thing that indicates a serious change in difficulty is the dragons (which, admittedly, is a pretty serious indication). Even the landscape looks exactly identical to the rest of Caelid.

My theory is that FromSoft intended to put entirely different enemies here, but ran out of time and had to resort to placeholders like they did in Mountaintops. This would also explain why the encounterdesign is pretty basic and flat compared to most other areas. 10 identical dragons that now exist as basic mob enemy. An entire stretch with a bunch of dog-sauruses guarding absolutely nothing. It's clear to me something else was supposed to go down in this area. Maybe it was even supposed to have its own visual style. As it exists right now, it's one of my least favorite areas in the entire game.

Hmm, I don't know about that. Almost tripping over dragons every few steps sent a quite clear message to me that this is a pretty high level area.

 

[Haplo]

I agree with most of the above. However, the problem with Greyoll's Dragonbarrow specifically is that there's very little to distinguish it from the rest of Caelid. You enter it and think "hmm, this area is like everywhere else I've been. Look, it even has many of the same enemies, like that Dog-saurus over there that I know I can reliably curbstomp... FUCK, he has three times as much health as his normal counterpart. How'd that happen?"

It's a problem of communication. Something needs to indicate to the player that what he's facing here is late game shit, but when you're just facing the normal rats, bats and dogs that you always meet, it feels jarring and counterintutitive that they should be that much tougher than their cousins who exist just a stones throw away. Really, the only thing that indicates a serious change in difficulty is the dragons (which, admittedly, is a pretty serious indication). Even the landscape looks exactly identical to the rest of Caelid.

My theory is that FromSoft intended to put entirely different enemies here, but ran out of time and had to resort to placeholders like they did in Mountaintops. This would also explain why the encounterdesign is pretty basic and flat compared to most other areas. 10 identical dragons that now exist as basic mob enemy. An entire stretch with a bunch of dog-sauruses guarding absolutely nothing. It's clear to me something else was supposed to go down in this area. Maybe it was even supposed to have its own visual style. As it exists right now, it's one of my least favorite areas in the entire game.

That could be and is an interesting thought. Imo the worst part of the Dragonbarrow for inexplicably tough enemies is Fort Faroth's beginning with the soul crushing bats.

That was actually my favorite soul rune farming spot :D
Those puppet crossbowmen make lovely pincushions out of these bats (and stunlock them nicely). They are also nicely flattened after a bonk! Not to mention what Gravity does to them.

...not that I did much rune farming.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Hmm, I don't know about that. Almost tripping over dragons every few steps sent a quite clear message to me that this is a pretty high level area.

Theoretically you could bypass most of them and still run into some pretty gross enemies. But for the most part yeah.

Like if you came in from the Smouldering Wall in North Limgrave and then kept to the northern parts of it where you'll mostly run into the Erdtree Avatar and the Beast Sanctum, gargoyle and vulgar militiamen.

 

[Haplo]

In these games, builds aren't centered around stats, but weapons. Because your weapons determine what your character can do. Just like in Kingmaker you would describe your build starting from your character class and not your stats, here you would start from your armaments (and spells). Your character isn't a 60/10/50/99/13/9/9/7 that has to choose his weapons accordingly, but a Gargoyle Greatsword and Fingerprint Stone Shield user that has to shape his stats around that.

Ok, that makes sense. So, I want to use a curved greatsword and a secondary piercing weapon. I also want to cast incantations because I like them a lot. I think my progression should be from bloodhound's fang and a rapier to morgott's cursed sword and a godskin stitcher. One handing both. Does this look like a reasonable stat progression for that playstyle? I've put DEX and ARC equal in the final stats because I'll get most of my melee damage from DEX, but most of my casting power from ARC. I would likely put a blood ash on the stitcher or could leave it keen. Charms would be golden scarab, Crepus' vial (actually breaks a lot of enemy AI, lots of free kills), green turtle (to compensate for low stamina when doing those tiring shielded stabs) and one free one that could be anything. Probably the DR one.

Lematte

Level 50 target stats

Spoiler

Vigor: 26

Mind: 10

Endurance: 15

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 17

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 20

Arcane: 10

Level 100 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 20

Endurance: 18

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 20

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 28

Level 150 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 28

Endurance: 28

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 40

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 40

I guess this is progress. But I think you're still overanalyzing this a little :D

This is not an optimization game for me.
Of course, the time may come when you'll want to polish your build and squeeze a bit more effectiveness, but try to enjoy the game - and your weapon's moveset till then.

I love builds, I really do. But in the Soulsborne games I just invest in whatsever needed for the weapon I want to use, invest in Endurance to be able to carry it and not be restricted too much by stamina, spare points go into Vit. Its as simple as that. Don't plan any stats in advance. Certainly not for level 100 / 150.

 

[Bloodeyes]

In these games, builds aren't centered around stats, but weapons. Because your weapons determine what your character can do. Just like in Kingmaker you would describe your build starting from your character class and not your stats, here you would start from your armaments (and spells). Your character isn't a 60/10/50/99/13/9/9/7 that has to choose his weapons accordingly, but a Gargoyle Greatsword and Fingerprint Stone Shield user that has to shape his stats around that.

Ok, that makes sense. So, I want to use a curved greatsword and a secondary piercing weapon. I also want to cast incantations because I like them a lot. I think my progression should be from bloodhound's fang and a rapier to morgott's cursed sword and a godskin stitcher. One handing both. Does this look like a reasonable stat progression for that playstyle? I've put DEX and ARC equal in the final stats because I'll get most of my melee damage from DEX, but most of my casting power from ARC. I would likely put a blood ash on the stitcher or could leave it keen. Charms would be golden scarab, Crepus' vial (actually breaks a lot of enemy AI, lots of free kills), green turtle (to compensate for low stamina when doing those tiring shielded stabs) and one free one that could be anything. Probably the DR one.

Lematte

Level 50 target stats

Spoiler

Vigor: 26

Mind: 10

Endurance: 15

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 17

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 20

Arcane: 10

Level 100 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 20

Endurance: 18

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 20

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 28

Level 150 target stats

Vigour: 40

Mind: 28

Endurance: 28

Strength: 18

Dexterity: 40

Intelligence: 13

Faith: 22

Arcane: 40

I guess this is progress. But I think you're still overanalyzing this a little :D

This is not an optimization game for me.
Of course, the time may come when you'll want to polish your build and squeeze a bit more effectiveness, but try to enjoy the game - and your weapon's moveset till then.

I love builds, I really do. But in the Soulsborne games I just invest in whatsever needed for the weapon I want to use, invest in Endurance to be able to carry it and not be restricted too much by stamina, spare points go into Vit. Its as simple as that. Don't plan any stats in advance. Certainly not for level 100 / 150.

Play a game with stats without a build? Unthinkable! I'd take at least a 60% decrease to my enjoyment by dropping the planned builds and not agonizing over every stat point spent! I actually wish there was a level cap so I'd have even more scarcity to deal with.

 

[Andnjord]

Bloodeyes you're seriously overestimating the cost of levels. Take the 40 VIG, 30 END you mentionned. Those are stats strong enough to tackle the end game, yet they only require you to reach sl51 with the Hero starting class. You could reasonably expect to reach that by the end of Stormveil Castle if you were thorough with your exploration of Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula, by which point you could potentially still have 100 levels to spread around to your hearts content. Hell, you could still bump VIG to 60 and still have 80 levels left over.

Another thing, about colossal weapons.

You are seriously discounting the impact of weapon movesets and the impact they have on the flow of combat. If you take the colossal weapons, they are slooooow as hell, don't do that much more damage than other builds (especially not in terms of DPS) when optimised properly and weight a ton, forcing you to invest in a lot of END if you want to be able to wear armour and god forbid, a shield too. BUT, they give you a degree of control over encounters that no other weapon can. I joke a lot about simply Bonking! enemies to death, but in fact it requires a very good sense of timing and careful reading of the enemies moves to pull off. If you do it right, then the result is that you completey stunlock the vast majority of mobs, utterly negating their moveset. If you don't, then you'll feel like you're just scrambling around unable to pull off any attacks, especially in the early game where you don't have any armour due to said weight requirement. You will also stagger most bosses extremely quickly (IF and only if you can keep a good pressure), something that practically never happened in my jumping jack faith build. At the point I am at in the game with the strength build (closing in on Malenia), I am doing less damage per second than the FAI build, but I can control the flow of a fight much better, have far better DR (heavier armour and no need for scorpion talismans), BUT I also have less tools available than the FAI build who could switch between ranged and melee combat, AOE or single target damage...

Another point too: my main weapon is The Greatsword (yes it's a colossal, don't ask why, it's an anime reference apparently), because it has really good damage and I'm really comfortable with its moveset, meaning I can time my attacks with it really well. But I also semi-frequently use other colossals: the Zweihander because it's lighter (I can use it with a shield) and because its R2 is a piercing thrust (which is crucial against dragons who are resistant to all but piercing damage) BUT it does less damage than the Greatsword. I also use the Prelate's Inferno Crozier if I need Strike damage (against the Crystalians for example), it does MORE damage than The Greatsword BUT it's slower and heavier. I also have the Great Mace with Sacred Blade on it to deal with undead enemies in a heartbeat. AND finally I have the Troll's Hammer for its Strike and Fire damage because there's a particular late game boss that's vulnerable to both (ok, little bit of metagaming on my part here) and it's great for those vulnerable to fire like the Erdtree avatars in the meantime.
This is of course late game, but by the time you reach Leyndell it's not hard to have one maxed out weapon and another on trailing just behind, after that it's trivial to have several upgraded to around +16 with two others at +20 (and Somber weapon can suck my dick because there seems to be none that just scales with STR

).

Are they all upgraded to the max? Of course not. Are they S tier, B tier, F tier? Fuck if I know, point is they're all weapons that I use for specific circumstances in which they excel and that's not down solely to "which one has the best AR on paper".

The point everyone has been trying to make, is that if you optimize your build even a little bit (stats are just one part of it, talisman and flask make an enormous difference too) AND you're comfortable with it (sure, you could do that fancy trick that let's you insta-cast spells, but fuck that) any build can feel overpowered in the right circumstances. I could give you my STR build to play with and you'd probably suck at it and find it terrible, conversely I could play your FAI build and have a horrible time with it. A bleed build in the hands of a passive player who prefers a slow and steady approach will suck for him, yet it's widely regarded as one of the strongest possible. A build is only as good as you are playing it.

Play a game with stats without a build? Unthinkable! I'd take at least a 60% decrease to my enjoyment by dropping the planned builds and not agonizing over every stat point spent! I actually wish there was a level cap so I'd have even more scarcity to deal with.

Spoken like a true munchkin gentleman.

 

[Haplo]

(and Somber weapon can suck my dick because there seems to be none that just scales with STR

).

Ruins Greatsword would like to have a word with you. Although it does require 16 Int, but otherwise is in 99% a Str weapon. And its Weapon Arts is... amazing (though spamming it kinda trivializes the game, so I haven't used it too much).