From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Skinwalker]

Replaying it right now and just offed Pope Sully. I have the following paths to choose:

You have the choice of one of two paths: Anor Londo or Irithyl Dungeons. And you have little incentive to drop the continued ascent to Anor Londo and instead go to the dungeons, at this point.

3. Smoldering Lake/Old Izalith

That was an old side-path that you did not explore when it was opened.

4. Consumed King Garden/Untended Graves 5. Lothric Castle proper/Great Library

You cannot go there until you finish either the Anor Londo or the Irithyl Dungeons path. Unless you kill the NPC that guards the area and access it prematurely, I guess. But that's cheese.

6. Painted World/Ringed City

That's a DLC, and you're not sufficiently leveled for Painted World yet.

 

[Silva]

Skinwalker , being leveled or not for the DLC is besides the point. Some builds and player skill can make it viable or not. The fact is it's an option open for the player.

Same as Smoldering Lake and any other level left behind. If the game doesnt force you to do it at the time, then it's another option open for you to do whenever you prefer.

In resume, those (and others) are all options left open for the player. Ergo, the game is "open' at that point.

It's liek Dark Souls 2 but boring

Now this is a more fair description.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

It's going to be fun guys

How is Elden Ring a shining example of a large open world done right

You can boost through it and pick & choose content after first the playthrough easily, no DOTHISDOTHAT UI/map, nice environments. As far as open world games go I'd say it's a good one.

So, a good open world for you is one where you shouldn't need to explore, and instead have a guide on your side pointing where you go to complete that "build" and finish it.

Well, I can see how Elden Ring is indeed "good" in that case.

But it begs the question: why don't you just play fucking Diablo or some acephalous game of builds to see numbers go up at this point?

huh? I'm the type that explores every nook and cranny on a first playthrough, no need for that on replays and Elden Ring accommodates that quite well. Do I use a wiki on subsequent playthroughs for specific builds? Yes, I'm not remembering every location of my huge fucking inventory after 150 or so hours.

 

[Skinwalker]

Skinwalker , being leveled or not for the DLC is besides the point. Some builds and player skill can make it viable or not. The fact is it's an option open for the player.

Same as Smoldering Lake and any other level left behind. If the game doesnt force you to do it at the time, then it's another option open for you to do whenever you prefer.

In resume, those (and others) are all options left open for the player. Ergo, the game is "open' at that point.

Ok, if you play like a complete lunatic who either doesn't explore open paths when they open up, or tries to explore paths that you're not meant to access until way later in the game, then yes, you'll have additional areas to explore by virtue of being incompetent.

How would you even know that you can access Lothric Castle and Gardens at any time, unless you go around killing random NPCs like a madman, or by reading walkthroughs? I thought you said something derogatory about playing with guides that tell you exactly where to go.

 

[Silva]

How would you even know that you can access Lothric Castle and Gardens at any time, unless you go around killing random NPCs like a madman

Bitch plis. I'm with Kaathe from the beginning.

And that Lothric karen handmaid asked for it when she says.. "Go do your duty you lowlive scum unkindled. What are you waiting for?". She deserved the black fire orb on her face.

 

[Skinwalker]

And that Lothric karen handmaid asked for it when she says.. "Go do your duty you lowlive scum unkindled. What are you waiting for?". She deserved the black fire orb on her face.

Sounds fake. You wouldn't have known about the Lothric Castle skip just from playing the game, which means it doesn't count.

Accessing DLC early also doesn't count.

Exploring all of Irythil before going to the Smoldering Lake also doesn't count, because it's a retarto decision. Sounds like you never found the secret path to the Lake because you're dumb, and had to go back for it after you read the walkthrough.

 

[Silva]

For what it's worth, I agree DS3 is a very problematic game. It has a terrible first half, terrible NPC quests, and terrible world design and plot. The sequence sacrifice road-cathedral of deep-farron swamp is the worst I've seen in any videogame, the color palette alone puke inducing.

But the game has it's merits. World opens up in second half, boss selection is fairly great, and the fighting system works for them and the tough normal enemies (outriders, pope knights, carthusans, corvians, ringed knights, etc). These qualities are what make me come back to it for an yearly playthrough.

DS3 being half-good is already better than full Elden Ring to me. The later big and boring open-world, schizo bosses supposed to be cheesed by super kamihamihas weapon arts, and even more terrible plot, made me drop it and never look back.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Ashes of Ariandel has the best boss of the series in the form of Sister Friede and her dad

DS3's DLC as a whole kicks serious ass. Even normal enemies are cool and tough (eg: corvian knights, ringed knights).

I could not disagree with you more. I could not think of a worst designed boss than Sister Friede and the Corvian knights in the entire series. They would be fine in a game like Devil May Cry where you have a full move set capable of keeping up with them and responding accordingly. Dark souls has blocking, rolling and hitting 2 attacks. No jumping (and it's a bad idea to even attempt the lame jump they give you in combat) and no way to launch enemies or do any sort of combos beyond mashing the attack button. Anime bullshit ruined the gameplay of the souls series and Friede is completely unacceptable as a 3 stage boss with so much anime bullshit you may as well be playing a Dragon ball Z fighting game.

Corvian knights are a huge problem design wise for similar reasons but they're also the worst designed enemy in the game. They're way too hard for no good reason so players run past them and refuse to fight after they kill one of them once. They're not designed for the very limited abilities of a Souls character to fight, so people don't fight them.

Souls games should be adventure games where paying attention to the enviroment is essential to staying alive. They should not be reflex based fighting games with particle effects obscuring half your screen any time a boss swings a sword at you. Dark souls 3 completely derailed the franchise after Dark souls 2 tried to pull it back more inline with it's Demon's souls routes in terms of exploration. If From want to make a fast paced action game then I'm all for it, but give the player the tools to fight in the same way. Don't keep the same Demon's souls combat system and drip feed basic abilities into it. As much as I love Elden ring's guard counter and having a jump button, it's unacceptable to have these anime bosses flying around the arena even if the camera DID work and it barely fucking does half the time. Weapon arts are not a solution to your anime bullshit because I'm still a fat fuck who can barely move even when I'm fast rolling compared to half the bosses in the game now.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Sounds fake. You wouldn't have known about the Lothric Castle skip just from playing the game, which means it doesn't count.

Souls games have a history of giving you some pretty nice stuff (including access to locked areas) if you kill the right NPCs and fucking you over if you don't kill others. Killing anyone is a totally valid option. So is ignoring a side path instead of trying to fill in the map like some shit level pathing algarythm. I play open world games by going where I expect to find useful stuff or what looks interesting to me. Sometimes that means passing over an area for quite a while. I'll admit DS3 tends to be fairly cramped if you always turn around and backtrack every time you see a new door though. But that's a retarded way to play imo. Makes sense you'd dislike ER as well if you play that way; I had a blast going to Caelid before Liurnia, skipped all sorts of stuff. The quests were all broken but I was constantly in a state of 'Oh shit, what's this new place? I wonder if it'll have new spells?!' until just about the very end of the game.

 

[Silva]

Halfling Rodeo , I agree with you that the series is at it's best when it's more about exploration than fighting. That's why DS1 is still my favorite.

That said, I think DS3 tried to purposefully change direction, being more of a fighting game, and the result is not THAT bad, specially on bosses and tough enemies. Edit: actually they changed direction with Bloodborne first, then applied those changes to Souls.

About corvians (and outriders, ringed knights, etc which I assume your example applies) it's exactly what you said: it's the kind of enemy supposed to be tough no matter what, and make you weight the risks. That there's no easy answer to deal with them is a plus for me, and what makes dealing with them (or avoiding them) special.
DS1 had them once. It's the Black Knights. Unfortunately DS1 system becomes too easy for vets, and those enemies pretty easy to deal with. It probably has the equivalent somewhere in the DLC though.

ULtimately though, even if I like to replay DS3 now and then, I agree the series shouldn't steered into this fighting game direction.

 

[Nathir]

For what it's worth, I agree DS3 is a very problematic game. It has a terrible first half, terrible NPC quests, and terrible world design and plot. The sequence sacrifice road-cathedral of deep-farron swamp is the worst I've seen in any videogame, the color palette alone puke inducing.

But the game has it's merits. World opens up in second half, boss selection is fairly great, and the fighting system works for them and the tough normal enemies (outriders, pope knights, carthusans, corvians, ringed knights, etc). These qualities are what make me come back to it for an yearly playthrough.

DS3 being half-good is already better than full Elden Ring to me. The later big and boring open-world, schizo bosses supposed to be cheesed by super kamihamihas weapon arts, and even more terrible plot, made me drop it and never look back.

Even more terrible plot then the plot about timelines and worlds merging together because everything is going to shit? Where every storyline is a metaphor about Miyazaki not wanting to make these games anymore? Where almost every enemy is a Bloodborne recycled asset that's colored grey from head to toe with long gangly limbs?

DS3 has exactly 0 aspects where it is better than Elden Ring. And just proof that "gamers" in general don't have any grasp about what is beautiful, artistic or elegant or why that should even matter.

 

[Silva]

Bro, comparing DS3 and Elden Ring is like comparing dog poop with cat poop. You can argue over which stinks more or which is easier to clean. But they're all poop at the end of the day.

Now, if you wanna talk beauty, art and elegance, sure, I don't mind changing the subject to DS1, Sekiro or Bloodborne.

 

[gabel]

Bro, comparing DS3 and Elden Ring is like comparing dog poop with cat poop. You can argue over which stinks more or which is easier to clean. But they're all poop at the end of the day.

Now, if you wanna talk beauty, art and elegance, sure, I don't mind changing the subject to DS1, Sekiro or Bloodborne.

Yeah, in the context of Fromsoft games, you're absolutely right (with the exception of Bloodborne, which would be horse poop in that picture).
Still all games worth playing, considering the state of the rest of the industry.

 

[Silva]

You're wrong about BB, but seeing as you're right in all the rest, I'm giving you that brofist.

 

[Dadd]

Sekiro is an overwrought rhythm game

 

[Lyric Suite]

schizo bosses supposed to be cheesed by super kamihamihas weapon arts

Nigga, i already proved that's complete nonsense:




There is no boss in Elden Ring that is "bullshit", it's all a skill issue.

 

[Lyric Suite]

it's the kind of enemy supposed to be tough no matter what

You can make them trivial with parry:

 

[Silva]

it's the kind of enemy supposed to be tough no matter what

You can make them trivial with parry:

I think the point is more about the risk (and cost) involved. Sure you can parry it, but if you miss it, you're toasted. Or, at least, will have to exhaust resources/estus/mana ash significantly more than the usual. That's what makes these areas tough or requiring more careful approach than most.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

About corvians (and outriders, ringed knights, etc which I assume your example applies) it's exactly what you said: it's the kind of enemy supposed to be tough no matter what, and make you weight the risks. That there's no easy answer to deal with them is a plus for me, and what makes dealing with them (or avoiding them) special.
DS1 had them once. It's the Black Knights. Unfortunately DS1 system becomes too easy for vets, and those enemies pretty easy to deal with. It probably has the equivalent somewhere in the DLC though.

As a boss? Sure, not a problem. As a random respawning enemy? Absolutely a problem. But you forgot there is a way to deal with them.. Don't engage with them. I've killed like 3 of them ever and I never will again. The Heide knights in DaS2 are quite difficult even for vets but they're fair. Covians should have been on par with them. Fast and hard to predict, not wombo combo flailing.

DS3 has exactly 0 aspects where it is better than Elden Ring.

Dark souls 3 has better bosses in general than Elden Ring. Crystal Sage is a more interesting experience than almost anything in Elden Ring. Elden Ring has great set piece bosses but everything else is very lack luster. Nothing outside of the core story and Ranni's quest bosses are memorable. And Dark souls 3 doesn't reuse it's assets so hard they become meaningless chaff.

Dark souls 3 has a better quest system. Elden Ring's way too broad and early on had no map markers for NPCs. So you got fucked.. Oh and Dark souls 3 HAS an end to Patches' quest line. Where the fuck is Elden Rings? It dead ends and has done for months now. Do we have to pay for DLC to finish our Trusty friend's story line now? Fucking Jews..

Dark souls 3 doesn't have you riding Torrent for 10 minutes hitting dash over and over to go slightly faster. Which is a huge problem with Elden Ring.

Dark souls 3 doesn't take an hour to collect all your flask upgrades and make you ride a horse between them while you listen to a podcast to try and stay away in this boring as FUCK open world.

schizo bosses supposed to be cheesed by super kamihamihas weapon arts

Nigga, i already proved that's complete nonsense:




There is no boss in Elden Ring that is "bullshit", it's all a skill issue.

I've done SL1 Elden Ring and I can assure you Elden ring does have a bunch of bullshit. Especially if you played early release and not-baby mode current patches. They had to drastically change duo boss fights AI because they would give you unavoidable damage situations. It's not a skill issue when the game is clearly balanced around weapon arts and people who like the traditional souls combat aren't happy with Morgot swinging 20 hit combos at you and input reading your healing. And he's the first boss the game leads you to despite him gate keeping what is essentially the middle of the game.

it's the kind of enemy supposed to be tough no matter what

You can make them trivial with parry:

I think the point is more about the risk (and cost) involved. Sure you can parry it, but if you miss it, you're toasted. Or, at least, will have to exhaust resources/estus/mana ash significantly more than the usual. That's what makes these areas tough or requiring more careful approach than most.

I don't consider parrying to be a viable option for these guys because they hit so hard you have to die a whole bunch to figure out the timing. And as we've discussed, they can easily be ran past so why would any one bother? Unless you're trying to do entire map clears there's no reason to fight them.

 

[Skinwalker]

Dark souls 3 has a better quest system.

These lies are unbearable. DS3 had some of the most bewildering quest triggers I have ever seen.

Example 1. Leonard keeps telling you to "give yourself to Rosaria" even after you've found Rosaria, joined her covenant, gave her tongues, did everything possible with her. Still "Come on, give yourself to Rosaria". THEN, much later in the game, after you beat Yhorm the Giant (who has jack shit to do with Leonard), Leonard's quest automatically progresses.

Example 2. The lady knight appears in Firelink Shrine and politely tells you she wants nothing to do with you. Ok, weird. Then you never see her for the rest of the game again. Huh. Then, after you've finished the game, you find out that she will vanish from your playthrough if you ever interact with Rosaria, even though there is literally nothing to indicate this in her initial dialogue. If you happen to not interact with Rosaria long enough, she appears again, warns you that she doesn't like Rosaria (you should have said that from the start!!), and has an entire questline culminating in an extra boss fight.

Thanks, FromSoftware!

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Dark souls 3 has a better quest system.

These lies are unbearable. DS3 had some of the most bewildering quest triggers I have ever seen.

Example 1. Leonard keeps telling you to "give yourself to Rosaria" even after you've found Rosaria, joined her covenant, gave her tongues, did everything possible with her. Still "Come on, give yourself to Rosaria". THEN, much later in the game, after you beat Yhorm the Giant (who has jack shit to do with Leonard), Leonard's quest automatically progresses.

Example 2. The lady knight appears in Firelink Shrine and politely tells you she wants nothing to do with you. Ok, weird. Then you never see her for the rest of the game again. Huh. Then, after you've finished the game, you find out that she will vanish from your playthrough if you ever interact with Rosaria, even though there is literally nothing to indicate this in her initial dialogue. If you happen to not interact with Rosaria long enough, she appears again, warns you that she doesn't like Rosaria (you should have said that from the start!!), and has an entire questline culminating in an extra boss fight.

Thanks, FromSoftware!

You are correct, that is all bullshit and annoying.

Now tell me how you're supposed to figure out Millicent's quest line. Without a wiki she's impossible to find and often expects you to go to areas you've already finished. The castle owner guy's quest was unfinished for months the same way Patches is/was. Dark souls 3 quests are bullshit but they're not unfinished and waiting to be patched in.

 

[Skinwalker]

Now tell me how you're supposed to figure out Millicent's quest line. Without a wiki she's impossible to find and often expects you to go to areas you've already finished.

I've followed Millicent's quest line to the end without any wiki. I suppose there's an element of randomness to it, depending on which areas you've already explored before beginning her questline. For me, she always appeared in the new areas that I had explored, so it worked out fine.

A far more bewildering example is finding a second Sorceress Selen imprisoned in a random dungeon, and then having no way to interact with her or ask why there's two of them, until much later in the game when you find an ancient sorcerer that progresses her quest line. Either add some reactivity in the dialogue, or don't reveal the double until it becomes relevant in the questline. Also, apparently the jester-looking guy in Caelid castle was involved in this questline and had a whole second ending to it, but there was nothing indicating that, so I totally missed out on it.

Elden Ring quests aren't much better than DS3.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

The Souls formula is tired as hell and needs some sort of mixup to keep it fresh. FS made the same game repeatedly since 2009.

I felt the open world helped with that a lot. The problem is that they should've pared it down to like a third to a half of the length and used the extra time to make better content instead of cookie cutter mines and such with different mobs.

Yes, the fundamental problem with Elden Ring is not the Open World itself but that the entire game is about as long as all three Dark Souls games combined. The number of mini-dungeons could have been cut in half, and similarly with certain repetitive content existing in the exterior of the Open World, accompanied by some compression in the area of the overworld, and the result would have been a far stronger game with much more replayability.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I've done SL1 Elden Ring and I can assure you Elden ring does have a bunch of bullshit. Especially if you played early release and not-baby mode current patches. They had to drastically change duo boss fights AI because they would give you unavoidable damage situations. It's not a skill issue when the game is clearly balanced around weapon arts and people who like the traditional souls combat aren't happy with Morgot swinging 20 hit combos at you and input reading your healing. And he's the first boss the game leads you to despite him gate keeping what is essentially the middle of the game.

I think the focus on weapon arts is making people lose sight of the fact within the scope of what you call "traditional Souls" combat you still have a wide range of tools that you ARE expected to use. Stance breaking, jumping, parrying (this is more or less a mandatory tool now), blocking + guard counters, learning to get around hyperarmor etc. If you are thinking you can just make due by dodge rolling everything that's where you are failing, not the least because at this point the timing for dodge rolling isn't actually any easier than the one for parry, and i'm not talking about the long combos either:



Notice the obvious parry clue when Morgott pulls out his big hammer but lounges at you with the sword first, which usually is the prelude for a long winded combo. The fact you can stop that in its tracks with a well timed parry IS the intended way to do it. Notice also how i was able to just sidestep the second long combo by moving behind him. I don't see how the combat changed a whole lot from what Souls was always about, it just got more complicated because of all the mechanics they introduced over the years. It's not a matter of reflexes, it's still fundamentally a question of skill.

As for the inclusion of stuff like ashes of war, spirit ashes or various status effects and tools, none of that stuff is mandatory for bosses. I do think the multiple boss fights were likely intended to be countered by spirit ashes. I think the AI nerf for a lot of them was too much and unwarranted if that's the case, but it's not like fighting them legit without spirit ashes was particularly fun before those patches:



Probably did it wrong by not parrying the spear crystallian but in my first playthrough i still didn't understand parry was meant to be used as a standard tool and it's no longer the "high risk, high reward" optional tool it was in past Souls games. Some enemies proved to be exceptionally difficult because i still had to realize i was supposed to use ALL the tools at my disposal. I died to that dual wielding knight in Castle Sol so damn much until i realized i was just supposed to either parry him or use guard counters with a bouncy shield. Guard counters almost make other difficult enemies much easier to manage, like those annoying insects, or the birds.

BTW, a lot of those tools were also intended to make certain parts of the game less boring. Why fight those lobsters over and over when you can just put them to sleep and move on. That too is part of the game and i was completely fine with that. They even beg you do it by showing you sleeping lobsters or bears. People who rage it takes 20 minutes to kill a bear for basically no reward apparently didn't actually get the memo that you weren't supposed to fight them at all for the most part.

Ultimately, all of this comes down to the fact that Elden Ring isn't just an action game, but also an RPG.

 

[Skinwalker]

Why fight those lobsters over and over when you can just put them to sleep and move on.

Put them to sleep with what?!