From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Grampy_Bone]

Outside of Dragon's Dogma, what action RPG has better combat? Pure action games and action games wearing RPG skins (Nioh) are better on that front of course, but nothing that's a full RPG comes to mind.

What kind of degenerate nonsense is this? Nioh 2 is far more of an RPG game than From shit. You only say this because Nioh also has a fantastic aggressive style combat system that needs to be mastered on top of the RPG elements, and maybe also because it's mission based, neither of these things invalidating or diminishing its status as an RPG. It has more RPG elements/mechanics, builds and modifiers you can toy around with and that's not even close. These are both combatfag games, so you cannot even argue that there's RPG mechanics outside of combat other than From's """"quests"""" (lmao)

I watched a Nioh speedrun where the guy used nothing but high stance axe heavy attacks to kill every enemy in the game.

 

[Anonona]

I watched a Nioh speedrun where the guy used nothing but high stance axe heavy attacks to kill every enemy in the game.

And you can probably beat any DMC on normal just using Stinger, NG spamming Flying Swallow, etc. Speedrun on normal difficulties is not a good indicative of the quality of a combat system, regardless of game, be it ER or Nioh or whatever. Specially for Team Ninja games. Otherwise I could just reduce ER combat to "spam AoW" like many speed runners do, and as flawed the combat system may be, we both know it is more than that. Speedrunners will use degenerate tactics and build to achieve maximum speed. That without mentioning the difference in tactics from different players. Eyeing some myself, I see many that use katanas, different stances, spells and skill. Even some "Axe only" run use different attacks in high stance and change to others for dodging and defense. Also Axe is a very High stance oriented, hyperarmor weapon, simplistic but effective.

If you have any experience with Team Ninja games, you would also know that they introduce numerous changes at higher difficulties. Just as Master Ninja in NG I and II are very different than normal, so are the higher "Ways of" in Nioh.

And even then, better a system that allows for mastery with a high ceiling even if it is not strictly required, that having none at all. His point stands. Nioh is deeper both in combat and RPG elements, and specially Nioh 2 with its more refined mechanics.

 

[Silverfish]

I watched a Nioh speedrun where the guy used nothing but high stance axe heavy attacks to kill every enemy in the game.

That's a fair point, but how many videos have been made these last two years with the premise of "Can I beat Elden Ring with only ___________" and the player actually succeeding?

 

[mediocrepoet]

I watched a Nioh speedrun where the guy used nothing but high stance axe heavy attacks to kill every enemy in the game.

That's a fair point, but how many videos have been made these last two years with the premise of "Can I beat Elden Ring with only ___________" and the player actually succeeding?

I think they have. The main issue is just that the game is so fucking long.

 

[Child of Malkav]

update is coming

Not for me. I ain't updating. In fact, comparing the regulation files from 1.2 to 1.12.2 and using smithbox to change the values back to the glory days..... oh btw, it'll also have the broken lightning perfume bottle....yeah, it's gaming time.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

At least Elden Ring doesn't make you sift through 1000 trash loot items every five minutes just to upgrade from 3% damage boost to 3.1% damage boost.

Nioh is deeper both in combat and RPG elements,

Nioh doesn't even have a proper magic system.

The argument doesn't stand because if you can win an entire game by spamming one attack it doesn't matter how many moves there are, they're all pointless. It's all just window dressing tricking you into wasting your time. Which was the same argument made about Elden Ring's armor system, which is just plain wrong. Typically even SL1 gimmick runs still exploit some clever combo of weapons, accessories, spells, and buffs, none of which are remotely required to win Nioh.

 

[Dr1f7]

ughh 80 hours in 2 weeks i need to cut myself off from this damn game
last few days i've had non-stop dreams of playing elden ring wtf

don't know the last time a game's grabbed me by the dick so hard
literally have elden ring hangover rn fam fr fr rizz no cap ong

 

[Silverfish]

At least Elden Ring doesn't make you sift through 1000 trash loot items every five minutes just to upgrade from 3% damage boost to 3.1% damage boost.

Loot items in Nioh have skills in addition to damage or defense.

Nioh doesn't even have a proper magic system.

What's the deficit?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Loot items in Nioh have skills in addition to damage or defense.

You also don't need to sift through shit in Nioh because you can set filters so you only see stuff that offers significant benefits.

The argument doesn't stand because if you can win an entire game by spamming one attack it doesn't matter how many moves there are, they're all pointless.

By this logic everything in souls games is pointless because you can win with R1 spam and a fist.

 

[None]

On a second playthrough and I'm realizing just how much exploration held the game up for me on the first run. It's still fun, but you can only get that sense of wonder and adventure once. Hoping the DLC will be like that again.

Also, have they made the game easier? I think the only fight I've had to spend a bit of time on were the twin gargoyles, everything else has felt easier.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Remember how people said Dark souls was becoming more like a shounen anime and had lost it's dark fantasy style?

Shadow of the Erdtree is a Iseaki shounen anime where a large monster and the hero throw magic spells/combat techniques at each other until one drops dead. Most are room clearing nukes and full your screen with particle effects.

Basically they were right.

 

[Crayll]

We both know almost everything you linked here is absolute garbage nobody uses outside of niche self imposed challenge runs or extreme gimmick setups. Fromsoft's version of 'status resistance' actually makes the status last longer on you once it triggers, and does nothing to reduce the buildup at all or improve the recovery time before it kicks in. You're going to compare that to having outright immunity from an ailment by using a fraction of your build? In what world is that a major gameplay enhancement? Everything else on the list is similarly outclassed by it's equivalents in better games where equipment actually matters. I think the only decent thing you listed in there was prayerful strike, which actually restores a halfway useful amount of health if you can land it.

Everything in that list is at least situationally useful and sees use, aside from the HP regen equipment which is indeed shit. Some are outright meta like the Claw Talisman or Great Stars.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

By this logic everything in souls games is pointless because you can win with R1 spam and a fist.

Only for the very skilled. Heavy axe spam is so easy anyone can do it.

I recall after beating Nioh 2 I remarked it had become tedious and repetitive. I was told in fact that the "real" game didn't begin for two more entire playthroughs. The first three runs through the game are just filler. And that's according to the super fans.

Say what you want about Elden Ring, it's probably bloated and too big, but it doesn't waste your time like that.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Great stars is meta because it's a giant weapon you can use with weapon arts for a billion damage, not because you'll regain 00.5% of your hp when you hit something with it. Listing it as 'lifestealing' is total bullshit. Even using it with a weapon art that hits a dozen times it's barely noteworthy.

And while claw talisman is meta, it's still a small bonus; people were spamming jumping attacks before such things existed because jumping attacks are poorly balanced in souls games. Most everything people use in ER is like that- a minor bonus to something you'd be doing anyways without it. There are a handful of build defining things, like the staves that offer large multipliers when paired, which raise otherwise mediocre tactics to high tier shit.

Being 'situationally useful' in a game full of shit options isn't exactly a high bar to clear. Just because I used bestial vitality in my playthrough doesn't mean it wasn't barely effective dogshit that might have made a difference once out of every 100 times it was cast. Nobody is going to notice at a glance if someone is regaining a sliver of their health occasionally. You would definitely notice if someone playing Nioh had a lifesteal build, because they'll go from half dead to full health in a few seconds. Taking those elements away would cripple the build, not make it 20% slower.

 

[Frank Capicoli]

I was told in fact that the "real" game didn't begin for two more entire playthroughs.

It isn't entire playthroughs though. Past the first you only need to pick out a few of the faster missions to unlock the necessary fights to unlock the highest tiers.

 

[abija]

The reduction as done from your final defense but the way individual defenses stack up is deceptive because its not purely additive.

Its right at 3:40 mark, he straight up tells you that due to how the game calculates damage reduction a numerical increase of 16 points can actually be more than 20 points. Hence giving people a misleading idea of what the negation values actually do for them.

There's nothing deceptive about a multiplicative system. It's perfectly clear and easy to understand as long as the game points it out. And since ER always shows the end result, it's quite obvious. There's no misleading idea unless you suck at basic math or you want to make a video longer than 10 mins.

 

[Hell Swarm]

The reduction as done from your final defense but the way individual defenses stack up is deceptive because its not purely additive.

Its right at 3:40 mark, he straight up tells you that due to how the game calculates damage reduction a numerical increase of 16 points can actually be more than 20 points. Hence giving people a misleading idea of what the negation values actually do for them.

There's nothing deceptive about a multiplicative system. It's perfectly clear and easy to understand as long as the game points it out. And since ER always shows the end result, it's quite obvious. There's no misleading idea unless you suck at basic math or you want to make a video longer than 10 mins.

In many cases the numbers are misleading or completely impossible to understand. What does Frost build up 45 actually mean? Don't use a wiki to answer that or information you got from a wiki. How is 46 build up, 56 build up and 108 build up different in ways you as a player can understand without outside sources? How can I know enemy poise breaks and what poise damage my weapon does without illusionary wall videos using cheat engine?

From games are not clear in the slightest and the game does nothing to help that. How often do you see X + X damage plus Y + Y damage and then you have to figure out if X + X being bigger is better than both combined because the game has resistances you have no way of viewing.

Even just going to the most basic stuff. Does ANY WHERE in game tell you the actual Scooby snack upgrade effects? The actual percentages you get not a vague bigger number is better? I don't think it does so any "accurate" info it does have is immediately wrong because it doesn't have scooby snacks included.

Does any one know which quest lines get broken by the rune breaking? I am really not enjoying some of these boss fights and getting the extra damage from scooby snacks would turn a few close calls into kills. I was intended to do all the NPC quests if I could but twin moon is a cunt and I want her dead. Got her close a few times but her phantom swords spaz out and then target you too fast to dodge if you're doing anything but standing idle. Rather than try and force a lucky win I was thinking of getting seriously upgraded and coming back with a 50% damage increase to close out the fight comfortably.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I think it would also be nice if I could figure out a way to see what types of buff stack without resorting to looking them up online, I can't find anything in game about it.

It would also be pretty good to have the hardness values of shields displayed somewhere.

 

[Anonona]

The argument doesn't stand because if you can win an entire game by spamming one attack it doesn't matter how many moves there are, they're all pointless. It's all just window dressing tricking you into wasting your time. Which was the same argument made about Elden Ring's armor system, which is just plain wrong. Typically even SL1 gimmick runs still exploit some clever combo of weapons, accessories, spells, and buffs, none of which are remotely required to win Nioh.

It completely stands, because you can do the same in ER, and in fact you can play very safely in ER too by just dodging and using a strong safe attack, but it doesn't means is the best nor more optimal way of doing things, less alone the most fun. You can defeat any boss by just dodging a few times and spaming R1, AoW or whatever, but when the combat shines is when you learn the boss and use all your tools, just like players like Ongbank do. Just because a speedrunner used a safe strategy in a speedrun doesn't even mean it was the best strategy. Same shit with any game, including Nioh.

Also I cannot agree with your statement considering that "options" are what really make a combat system. Just like in a fighting game a "turtle" player that defend himself all the time and just use safe pokes and the timer to win is valid and even some profesional players play like that, so too can single players games offer the option to play them like that, with a more safer, slower and passive playstyle. Having the option is a plus for a combat system and doesn't dismish its qualities. When players complain about some of ER's bosses for example, is the fact that sometimes it feels like the player is forced in a particular playstyle.

Only for the very skilled. Heavy axe spam is so easy anyone can do it.

Not really, depending on the weapon it may even be quite easy. R1 with a bleed weapon will work wonders for most of the game. Doesn't need to be R1, it can be jump attack spam or AoW spam. You can play Elden Ring like a brainless monkey and succeed, doesn't means the combat is brainless.

Say what you want about Elden Ring, it's probably bloated and too big, but it doesn't waste your time like that.

It also doesn't have a deep combat and RPG system you must learn progressively. ER is more simple and faster to understand. Also if NG+ were like DS2 and changed enemies and added new one new mechanics like Nioh, people would be saying the same about ER. And people will rightily say than you can beat a playthrough just focusing on the obligatory fights to go to the next difficulty faster, just as you can do only the mandatory missions on Nioh to go to the next difficulty level.

 

[abija]

In many cases the numbers are misleading or completely impossible to understand. What does Frost build up 45 actually mean? Don't use a wiki to answer that or information you got from a wiki. How is 46 build up, 56 build up and 108 build up different in ways you as a player can understand without outside sources? How can I know enemy poise breaks and what poise damage my weapon does without illusionary wall videos using cheat engine?

Nice moving the goal post. Except it makes it even more retarded to pick the one stat that is clearly displayed to complain about?

Btw, I don't like bleed and never looked at items with it or read about mechanics. By what happens to my char from bleed attacks I'd say each hit ads that number to a hidden bar and when it reaches a treshold based on enemy resistance it triggers a blood loss. Is it close?

 

[Damned Registrations]

By what happens to my char from bleed attacks I'd say each hit ads that number to a hidden bar and when it reaches a treshold based on enemy resistance it triggers a blood loss. Is it close?

Kind of, except the threshold can channge during the fight, the bloodloss doesn't do the same thing every time, and the number added to the hidden bar is also varied based on which weapon and attack you use. The number is really only useful in context of comparing it to that number on the exact same weapon. If you want to compare say, scythes to daggers for speed of bleed buildup, or the damage inflicted, you need empirical tests or excel tables taken from the game code. Most of FS stats are like this; they give you enough info to know if raising a stat influences something, but leave out all the details required to actually optimize anything.

 

[Ravielsk]

In many cases the numbers are misleading or completely impossible to understand. What does Frost build up 45 actually mean? Don't use a wiki to answer that or information you got from a wiki. How is 46 build up, 56 build up and 108 build up different in ways you as a player can understand without outside sources? How can I know enemy poise breaks and what poise damage my weapon does without illusionary wall videos using cheat engine?

Nice moving the goal post. Except it makes it even more retarded to pick the one stat that is clearly displayed to complain about?

Btw, I don't like bleed and never looked at items with it or read about mechanics. By what happens to my char from bleed attacks I'd say each hit ads that number to a hidden bar and when it reaches a treshold based on enemy resistance it triggers a blood loss. Is it close?

Nobody is moving anything. You are talking to two different people and one of them brought up a different set of numbers to the first one.

To explain again, just like the video you totally watched, the deceptiveness comes from the player not being told what is happening in the background. Because when you equip two armor pieces with 20% damage reduction you expect the resulting reduction to be 40%. You the player are performing additions but the game calculates them as multiplications thus the number shown in the stat window looks lower than what you would logically expect it to be. Hence people assume they are getting diminishing returns from their armor because that is what the numbers are showing to them.
But do you know what adds up additively? Weight and Vigor. So players see their encumbrance and HP go up faster than their negation and logically conclude that armor values are secondary to weight and vigor values as those determine your roll speed and HP. Couple this with the quite bluntly stupid amounts of damage bosses deal and you can imagine why people concluded that armor does not do very much when in the early game it barely does anything.

 

[FugueLah]

Because when you equip two armor pieces with 20% damage reduction you expect the resulting reduction to be 40%.

It is 40%. Additive DR gives exponential effective HP. It is retarded to expect it to work in an additive way.

 

[Damned Registrations]

There's basically 3 reasonably intuitive ways a % based armour system could work:

Additive EHP modifiers. Adding say, 30 armour, raises your effective hp total when being hit by 30%. Adding another 30 armour increases the armour total to 60, so you've got 60% more effective HP, and so forth. WC3, DotA, and MHW all work like this. It's a little wonky when they don't make 1 armour = 1% EHP (WC3 did 1 armour = 6% EHP for example) but is otherwise very easy to understand at a glance, especially when the game throws in a tooltip to tell you what the final damage reduction will be.

Multiplicative damage modifiers. Souls games do this. Equipping two pieces that each make you take 80% damage from something multiply together and result in 64% damage taken. This gets wonky when you invert the numbers and multiplying 20 by 20 equals 36. Easy enough to understand with nice round numbers like that if you know what to look for, but to the random player taking 11.3 onto 47.4 and getting... whatever the fuck that would be, it's not something you'll necessarily recognize if you're used to other systems. Especially if you then run out and let something club you and that doesn't mesh with the numbers you get (Which it won't in a FS game because they added a bunch of dumb subtypes, hidden elemental damage and pseudo flat reduction with no info about the order of operations.)

Additive damage resistance modifiers. 20% reduction and 20% reduction is 40% reduction. Very obvious what is going on here, and results in damage reduction getting exponentially better the more you have. Which can be fine depending on game balance or instituting a cap. Resistances in something like Diablo work like this.

 

[Stoned Ape]

The other slightly weird thing with ER armour is that when you get to decent heavy armour, like Crucible Knight's Set or Radahn's Lion Armour the next 'upgrades' after them do very little for damage mitigation (normally around 1-2% multiplicative DR), they just stack extra poise (which seems to do very little in the expansion) for a huge load of extra weight (like 2 to 10 kilos for just the chest armour).