From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Doktor Best]

The very definition of sophistry if there ever was one.

By that definition, all games are grinding. Why? Because you play them, and that's grinding.

Well to be fair people in the chess community refer to daily puzzles and going huge in match volume as grinding out rating or skill.

But yeah in the context of rpg its pretty clear what grinding means and learning boss moves or exploration is just not that.

Its also curious how Fromsoft games are accused of grind when people beat them with characters equipped with a wooden spoon and a pair of underpants over his head while codex darling Nioh2, which is much more grindheavy, gets off the hook so easily.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Its also curious how Fromsoft games are accused of grind when people beat them with characters equipped with a wooden spoon and a pair of underpants over his head while codex darling Nioh2, which is much more grindheavy, gets off the hook so easily.

I've not played Nioh2 so I can't comment but Dark souls has multiple grinds in it. The example of large titanite shards or green titanite shards pre-Sens is exclusively a grind if you want to level up your weapon. You either get lucky in 1 play through only crystal lizards dropping them or you have to farm enemies for them. There's no way around it.

Being able to beat the game naked with no weapons isn't an argument there isn't a grind.

Elden ring is especially bad where it does turn exploration into a grind. I have to explore to find the various bellbarings or collecting stuff from the mines/catacombs. The side content is so samey and pointless it is a grind and I'm doing it only for upgrades. Like my current play through a good few hours of it has been just getting flask and upgrade material. It's not something I enjoy or want to do but it's a necessary grind to "level up" my character so my healing works at all.

 

[Multidirectional]

Its also curious how Fromsoft games are accused of grind when people beat them with characters equipped with a wooden spoon and a pair of underpants over his head while codex darling Nioh2, which is much more grindheavy, gets off the hook so easily.

What do you mean by "grindheavy"? The way I understand game requiring you to grind is when you actually have to stop your progress and stay in same place farming for items or level-ups or you will have a bad time if you don't. This has not been my experience with Nioh 2 for 500+ hours I put into it, most of that time rushing my characters to highest difficulty. Or do you mean something different by that?

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'd say farming would be a more appropriate word.

Nioh does solve the issue with the Diablo system to a degree by virtue of being a combat game. Sure you are doing the same maps and killing the same monsters over and over to loot or craft better gear but at least there's actual gameplay involved doing so. It's not the same as in killing Baal five million times. Not to say there isn't something enjoyable about a straight up race between your stats and those of the monsters, and all the theorycrafting that goes with it but once you get to the end game is becomes overbearing. You have to spend hours to make minute progress i just can't deal with that shit anymore, and what makes it worse is that the "journey" is far too forgiving for far too long. Path of Exile was a cake walk all the way up to you start getting your first yellow maps. That's a shit ton of gametime you are basically sleep walking through, and the "story" certainly isn't good enough to entertain you through hundreds of hours of piss easy gameplay you have to wade through to get to the actual challenge, which, when it comes, it halts your progress to a grind.

 

[Silverfish]

None of the gear that is locked behind a loot table (which is relatively small all considered) is fundamental or necessary to progress through the game

So I don't need to farm rare upgrade materials in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, but do need to farm for weapons with 2% more damage in Nioh and Diablo. Makes sense.

 

[Multidirectional]

I don't even think loot system in Diablo II and Nioh is the same. It might look it on the surface level, but there aren't any of these "omg must have" items that can completely change the build. Equipment is never as strong as uniques in DII, let alone the runewords. Bonuses from loot aren't super powerful and builds are more about stacking multiples of the same small bonus until it becomes more significant. And tempering system + inheritable effects make it so there's never any real reason to farm for equipment drops.

 

[Lyric Suite]

None of the gear that is locked behind a loot table (which is relatively small all considered) is fundamental or necessary to progress through the game

So I don't need to farm rare upgrade materials in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, but do need to farm for weapons with 2% more damage in Nioh and Diablo. Makes sense.

Absolutely. Have you even played Diablo? That 2% is the difference between surviving or getting one shot at the highest level. The line you have to ride in those games towards the end is extremely thin.

As for farming upgrade materials, meh. Mostly you only did it because you had to upgrade armor, which was of dubious value. Given there was only a limited number of Titanite Slabs you had enough material to just upgrade the few weapons you ended up using. If you farmed to just upgrade ALL the gear in the game following some kind of completist autism you are a retard.

Not that there's anything wrong with farming in principle. Some people even like to do it (or they wouldn't play shit like MMOs). It's just the extend of it, the time it takes to get what you need, and the necessity of it that sets Diablo far, far apart from Souls.

In all my time in playing Souls, i don't even remember a time where i had to farm something for more than 30 minutes. Like, ever. That's a far cry with spending a week raiding in an MMO just to have a chance to get an item that is actually mandatory to progress to the next raid. It's not even remotely the same shit. Farming in Souls is mild, kiddie stuff by comparison. They even made it easier with the Bell Bearing thing.

 

[Silverfish]

Absolutely. Have you even played Diablo?

Yes, but I've never farmed. I just go through the difficulties until the numbers needed to progress get silly, then I move on.

As for farming upgrade materials, meh. Mostly you only did it because you had to upgrade armor

Or because you can't actually buy titanite chunks in DS1, meaning that you'll have to farm just to upgrade your primary weapon.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Absolutely. Have you even played Diablo? That 2% is the difference between surviving or getting one shot at the highest level. The line you have to ride in those games towards the end is extremely thin.

I've played a hell of a lot of Diablo 2. You just admitted the same thing applies to Dark souls. Farming better equipment or upgrade material is life or death in a lot of games.

That's a far cry with spending a week raiding in an MMO just to have a chance to get an item that is actually mandatory to progress to the next raid.

"This other game does something worse so it's okay when From does something shitty" is not an argument.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Little reminder that Elden ring is not Dark souls and you should try everything you find in all situations. You will be surprised of how much weird interactions the game has.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Absolutely. Have you even played Diablo?

Yes, but I've never farmed. I just go through the difficulties until the numbers needed to progress get silly, then I move on.

Well, there you go, you have no frame of reference to understand how bad this system can potentially get.

Farming in FromSoft games is a minor thing by comparison. Random drops is a common mechanic in RPGs and FromSoft just utilized it because it's there and it is part of the genre, but i never felt their implementation was particularly frustrating. It's also not entirely unfun to figure out the best spots or come out with some clever farming route or system. As long as you are not forced to do it constantly just to continue play, which i never felt was the case with FromSoft.

In Dark Souls, i remember farming those worms at the bottom of Blighttown to get those green titanite things, the Dark Knights to get some chunks and those pillars in the Tomb of Giants to get some of those white chunks (i actually devised a cool farming route that was both fast and easy). In all three cases i just did it because i wanted to upgrade more than one weapon and armor (so probably not needed if you are sticking to a favored set up), none of the three sessions took that much time and i never felt frustrated doing it, probably because again it was just a side thing i had to do and wasn't that time consuming or as hard as it can get in Diablo-likes or MMOs. Even in Elden Ring i did farm a bit to get crafting mats when i was doing my SL1 run, before i replaced consumables with spells. Again, it wasn't that bad, farming routes were easy to device and i didn't spend more than 10 minutes at a time.

FromSoft also relies on other mechanics to make rare objects hard to get for the player, which you may or may not find preferable. Titanite Slabs were limited in number and were hidden behind those little invisible and skittish bugs that were often difficult to kill. They put a bunch in one of the most dangerous area to nagivate that is hidden behind a secret. A lot of people probably either missed the area altoghether or couldn't get all the bugs given how complex the layout was (and failure meant instant death). I loved it, because i like games that challenge me. I'm sure some of the usual suspects here screeched and moaned about that too, because looking at those criticisms it feels the general complaint is that FromSoft games are just too inopportune. They require too much forethought and cleverness and talent and commitement and time that's just not what the "regular" player wants. What the regular player seem to want is something that is easy going and comfy, which to me seems to suggest the regular player should perhaps stay clear of FromSoft games altoghether.

 

[abija]

Why would you even bother arguing with a retard that says exploring/learning bosses = grinding?

 

[Grunker]

Who the fuck farms in a FromSoft game. I’m a million years old, have no hands and never played action games before, yet recently completed a few of these games blind, defeating bosses like Malenia. Why the fuck would you waste time farming except if you’re looking for some irrelevant bit of fashion souls equipment

 

[abija]

They're not, just using most retarded arguments in bad faith for some unknown reason.

Like silverfish that quits diablo when gear matters but somehow he "HAS" to farm max upgrades in souls...

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I’m a million years old, have no hands

Oi mindx2 wrong alt

 

[Grunker]

They're not, just using most retarded arguments in bad faith for some unknown reason.

Like silverfish that quits diablo when gear matters but somehow he "HAS" to farm max upgrades in souls...

Actually come to think of it I did spend like thirty minutes farming crafting stuff for holy res against Elden Beast but that felt more like a band aid for my skill issues than anything the game encouraged me to do…

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, another one "burst" the dust lul:



This one was easier than the other two though (second phase was easy also). I have 21 scadutree fragments still in my stash. I have a feeling i'll have to wait until Radahn before even considering having to use them. I was also still able to tank some of his hits, that's with Scorpion Charm, Howl of Shabriri damage debuff and everything. So far the necessity to use those Scadutree Blessings has been vastly exagerated, but we'll see further ahead.

Oh, you also get several opportunities to heal on this one, much like the Dancing Lion. When he goes throtting around to do that whole sequence where he uses the horse to attack you get plenty of time to heal and you also have a lot of time at the start of the second phase where he does that series of ghostflame shockwaves. So far the only one i felt didn't give you much of a chance to heal unless you went out of your way to create a lot of spacing was Rellana. Bosses like that probably require you to use other healing means (healing over time, healing on hit etc).

 

[Child of Malkav]

Little reminder that Elden ring is not Dark souls and you should try everything you find in all situations. You will be surprised of how much weird interactions the game has.

I agree that you need to try all the tools to discover stuff but enough already with the ER is not DkS retardation.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, technically it isn't. I mean in the sense FromSoft is conscious of the fact so they went out of their way to do things a bit differently, even if in the main the game is basically still Souls and could just have easily been Dark Souls 4. That's why i suggested not to get too obtuse in trying different approaches instead of relying on what worked in Souls exclusively and obstinately.

 

[Silverfish]

Well, there you go, you have no frame of reference to understand how bad this system can potentially get.

I actually do, which is why I choose not to engage at that point.

Titanite Slabs were limited in number and were hidden behind those little invisible and skittish bugs that were often difficult to kill.

They were actually farmable from Darkwraiths in infinite numbers.

Like silverfish that quits diablo when gear matters but somehow he "HAS" to farm max upgrades in souls...

From made chunks and slabs purchasable in the sequels, so clearly I was right.

 

[Lyric Suite]

They were actually farmable from Darkwraiths in infinite numbers.

They were? I didn't even know lmao.

From made chunks and slabs purchasable in the sequels, so clearly I was right.

Not really. FromSoft caving in to pressure from carebears usually results in their games becoming less interesting. I still remember what i had to do to get the slab for my divine claymore in DS1. Man was that a quest worth remembering.

I'm also still pretty sure final upgrades were limited in DS2/DS3. They certainly are limited in Elden Ring. In a game where most people are likely to stick to a single weapon all the way through, demanding to have upgrades for all gear easily obtainable is just completist autism speaking. You don't need to have everything on a single character.

 

[Silverfish]

Not really. FromSoft caving in to pressure from carebears usually results in their games becoming less interesting.

Preaching to the choir. I'm one of about five people who think that Elden Ring should ditch the map and compass and bring back item durability.

I'm also still pretty sure final upgrades were limited in DS2/DS3.

Farmable again in DS2. DS3 slabs are limited, you can only get around a dozen. In the game where you can't upgrade armor.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I’m a million years old, have no hands and never played action games before, yet recently completed a few of these games blind, defeating bosses like Malenia.

That's a point worth devling into.

I'm in my 40s myself, and my reflexes aren't what they used to be, and yet and i could still get fairly proficient in those games, which is why i tend to get a bit annoyed at all the screetching about how hard they are.

I also never liked action games much before Souls. My only experience with action games before Souls was arcades as a kid. Once i got my first PC i never played anything other than strategy, sims and the like. Only action games after that were first person shooters and maybe RTS games.

FromSoft was congenial for me because half of the difficulty lies in "figuring out" what's going on rather than being a matter of having fast reflexes or being able to execute impossible combos. The last boss i killed felt super relaxing, just requiring observation rather than fast reactions.

 

[Odoryuk]

Little reminder that Elden ring is not Dark souls and you should try everything you find in all situations. You will be surprised of how much weird interactions the game has.

This moveset is from Dark Souls 3, along with its arrow deflecting ability.
Elden Ring is not Dark Souls, but it is Souls.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Little reminder that Elden ring is not Dark souls and you should try everything you find in all situations. You will be surprised of how much weird interactions the game has.

Little reminder that spiritleaf greatsword's animation was reused for this weapon and it's using Dark souls 3 content, including blocking the arrows. It was one of the most popular weapons towards the end of the DLC's life because it blocked ranged stuff and was easy to pressure with.

Who the fuck farms in a FromSoft game. I’m a million years old, have no hands and never played action games before, yet recently completed a few of these games blind, defeating bosses like Malenia. Why the fuck would you waste time farming except if you’re looking for some irrelevant bit of fashion souls equipment

Maybe you should read the thread before you comment in it?

From made chunks and slabs purchasable in the sequels, so clearly I was right.

From had to completely rebalance Dark souls ore system with the DLC as well. So it wasn't even the sequels that changed things (ignoring DaS is a sequel).

I can't decide if From, Sonic the hedgehog or Bethesda have the worst fanboys at this point. I'm convinced there are people in this thread who are not capable of being self aware and will continue to go for character assassination because they're fundamentally incapable of understanding a single thing said to them. From games can be interesting to discuss and the community used to be full of life and excitement to discuss the pros and cons of the game and how to improve them even if From never actually would. It's sad we're at the point where people will defend the mess Elden Ring is, but then I suppose Pokemon has the exact same problem and at least they games haven't completely lost their identity the way From have.