From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

Yeah i think i better wait until i play it myself. I rarely watch Ongbal as it is because i don't want him to spoil the fights for me either. But i'll keep the guy in mind.

 

[Damned Registrations]

We've been over the parry thing before. I'm not going to bother restating why you're wrong.

I just have a problem overcoming the initial resistance if there's something that is immediatly off putting about a game (like all the silly crap in DMC).

Honestly DMC or Nioh isn't even what I'd recommend. MH or DD is a much better direction for souls combat to go in, with longer fights against large spectacle enemies and less spastic nonsense. It's where souls combat used to be at before Artorias showed up, with emphasis on things like bosses having weak points to target and unique combat styles and arenas. Even something like the taurus demon had the ledge you could do plunging attacks from.

Maybe you are not used to that because in games that allow for complicated combos bosses are mostly stationary, especially if you make them that way by keeping them staggered?

Nioh bosses are often quite mobile, but only if it makes sense for them to be so, such as a melee character closing in on you or a ranged one evading you. Most bosses simply have different attacks at different ranges. What you don't get is a fight where an enemy does a 7 hit combo then leaps backwards across the room so you can't punish him except the 4th time he does it and ends with a different finisher.

Part of the problems with videos of Nioh/2 combat is that the game obviously attracts weebs, so the most popular videos are someone making a million numbers appear with twin swords or tonfa, and the player being overlevelled so you don't see them get staggered or stop to heal or reapply buffs.

Something like this is way, way more grounded than what you get in ER with it's crucible/bloodhound/godskin knights.



This is a good example of an illustrative boss fight video imo. Note how the boss has weakpoints in the crystals at the sides- not trivial to hit, giving a good reason to use different attacks that can reach them more easily. At 1:50 the player use caltrops. They don't do much in this case, but the fight has an ebb and flow that gives you a chance to use such things, instead of them being useless because all bosses are hyper agressive spastics. At 2:25 he manages to deplete the boss ki bar, making it vulnerable to being staggered. This would be where a combo would be quite useful; meaning that it has a place in the fight without dominating the whole thing, giving you another reason to have variety in your fighting style. Shortly after the boss does a realm shift, sort of resetting the fight and unlocking new moves, including summoning some minions. The burn status effect in the fight can be cured by rolling around, making it something you can interact with instead of just plain extra damage. He finishes the fight out with his transformation, a powerful ability you can likely only use once per fight, again encouraging consideration in when and how to use it, rather than just spamming R1 and dodge rolls over and over.


The fight is constantly changing, so you shouldn't be doing the same shit over and over again. You might get away with that if you're overlevelled or know the boss like the back of your hand, but it's not the intention and it gives you many options that aren't superficial by any means.

 

[Multidirectional]

What you don't get is a fight where an enemy does a 7 hit combo then leaps backwards across the room so you can't punish him

This was one of the most infuriating things about some of ER bosses to me. Just couldn't see how that makes for an interesting challenge rather than game designers straight up trying to annoy me. I'll take the game being easier over that type of shit being present in it any day. Also I'm trying to remember lock-on being broken by boss zooming around the arena in Nioh 2. I'm not sure if it ever happens. If it does, it must happen so rarely that it didn't even register with me. Like that bridge boss in one of DLCs, when he starts jumping around all over the place and shooting projectiles I'm pretty sure lock-on always remains intact. Another type of "interesting challenge" in From games that can go fuck itself.

 

[Lyric Suite]

MH or DD is a much better direction for souls combat to go in, with longer fights against large spectacle enemies and less spastic nonsense.

From what i've seen of Monster Hunter, just fucking no.

It's where souls combat used to be at before Artorias showed up, with emphasis on things like bosses having weak points to target and unique combat styles and arenas.

Artorias was a gimmick fight though. You were supposed to stagger him out of his powerup phase so he didn't get out of hand.

Anyway, as far as the videos you posted and your descriptions (took me a bit to understand you were talking about the second video), i'm still not seeing it. I'm sorry i just don't. I mean it's cool and everything (well, aside for the cat ears) but i'm not seeing anything that makes the combat so superior to anything in FromSoft games.

I mean, you are more than free to prefer it, but you are not expressing a preference, you are claiming this system is objectively superior, where as to me it doesn't look terribly different from what i've already experienced from Nioh 1, and i wasn't so impressed by that as to instantly recognize this supposed "mediocrity" in FromSoft games. Like, at all.

BTW if i was doing that cat demon boss, i would probably not rely on any of that stuff for the sake of proving i can master her moveset. Like the part with the caltrops? I'd hardly use them. I didn't bother using any of the prosthetics in Sekiro because i felt they were basically a cheat, so i'm sure i would likely feel the same in Nioh 2.

 

[Silverfish]

BTW, let me guess, Dante is cocky on the outside but is sad on the inside, hence why it's Devil May Cry instead of Devil May Care. I've consumed enough Japanese media to know where this is going lmao.

In DMC? Not really, he's mostly just pissed off, but makes like two or three quips. Good description of DMC3 though.

BTW if i was doing that cat demon boss, i would probably not rely on any of that stuff for the sake of proving i can master her moveset. Like the part with the caltrops? I'd hardly use them.

"Look, I may seek out the best items, stack buffs and spam weapon arts against the bosses in Elden Ring, but using caltrops against Kasha in Nioh is just pointless when I could simply master her moveset."

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you were 'supposed' to stagger Artorias out of his powerup phase, they did a shit job of communicating that, since it's not even possible with a bunch of weapons and he takes half damage during the charge so it seems more like a bait to kill you with the counter explosion. It also wears off after a while.

And yes, I'm stating Nioh's systems are objectively superior, because they contain everything Fromsoft is doing and more while giving up nothing. If you want to beat the game with a shit weapon, no items and your dick in a vise, hey, I get that. I don't want to use summons or stack buffs and watch the boss have an anneurism while I beat it's ass with impunity. But arguing that the game is better because it's more limited is retarded. What else should we take out of ER? All the weapons except daggers? Think of how much more interesting the puzzle of the fights would be if you had to beat everything with shit range, no poise damage, no dodging, running, blocking or parrying! If jumping and guard counters didn't make ER shit by adding more options, neither would anything I listed for Nioh 2.

 

[Lyric Suite]

But arguing that the game is better because it's more limited is retarded.

The argument is that i'm not impressed by "more" for the sake of more. Quantiy != quality.

because they contain everything Fromsoft is doing and more while giving up nothing

No it doesn't. The things it contains that are a core element in FromSoft games are actually objectively inferior.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The things it contains that are a core element in FromSoft games are actually objectively inferior.

In what fucking way?

 

[Lyric Suite]

The things it contains that are a core element in FromSoft games are actually objectively inferior.

In what fucking way?

In what way they are?

The way those bosses move and attack in Nioh is pretty good but also kinda of middling compared to what you typically find in FromSoft games. Not even remotely as difficult to figure out and counter.

 

[Damned Registrations]

So your entire premise for why Fromsoft is so fucking great... is that their attack patterns are unreadable and require immense trial and error to figure out.

Yes, having two identical attacks behave in completely different ways, people alter physics mid leap, lousy hitboxes and massive amounts of input reading do indeed make things more difficult to figure out and counter. Wow, I wonder why nobody else is doing these things.

Never mind that all that shit is a more recent problem, and Dark Souls had none of that shit, with patterns that were just as easy, if not easier to figure out than what Nioh has. "Typical of Fromsoft games" doesn't even mean anything in that context.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Playing the fuck out of this game again but haven't been able to get into the server for a week. Get a lot of errors each time. So it boots me and lets me play offline. No idea why.

Enjoying the DLC, but I definitely wish they did the following with the bosses:
1. Fully Restored Radahn fight another way and fought him without Miquella
2. Miquella the god comes back with Godwyn the Golden. Basically, the eclipse to bring back his soul now that Radahn is dead is successful, etc.

 

[Anonona]

So your entire premise for why Fromsoft is so fucking great... is that their attack patterns are unreadable and require immense trial and error to figure out.

I think you just hit the nail in the head with this line.

After some thinking about why myself can enjoy these games despite recognizing my reservations with them, I concluded the issue with this debate, and why is such impossibility to reach an accord, and the reason Lyric will probably not really like that much any other action game he plays, regardless of how good they may be, is that perhaps Lyric doesn't really care about or even like combat in modern 3D action games (from PS1/N64 era onwards), but the brand of "combat" that From's offers. Which is a mixture of old school (as in arcade/console action) and modern 3D action games with an anti-animu aesthetics and good "gamefeel". I apologize to Lyric in advance, because I'm going to try and analyze his tastes and explain them to make a point, which is kind of autistic and rude on my part. I ask you, feel free to correct anything you find insulting or don't agree with, I hope I'm not too far from the mark.

First, sorry to repeat myself, because I know I said this many times before, but they are really good examples at illustrating the point. But games like og Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, Shinobi, etc with high difficulty that needed you to understand the patterns of levels and bosses, often times through trial and error, and had a kind of "rythm" to the action, patterns you could learn and once mastered "flow" through the game so to speak. Anyone that has played modern From or read Lyric's post will probably find this description familiar. And yes, those games had, in a manner of speaking, "bullshit" you had to memorize, which I can see why Lyric is not only not bothered by it, but instead enjoys it, even if most players don't. This is inherent of these types of games. And the other side, the combat system itself, was simple, with limited options, each with a purpose and often times hard counters to bosses or levels that require solving the "puzzle" left by the developer. An example would be how in Castlevania 1 the Axe is good against the bat, the watch against Frankestein's monster and holy water against Death. The game didn't really told you directly, but through logic, experimentation and subtle hints you could figure out these things. These games difficulty and fun was all about learning bosses and levels, and figuring out intended solutions by the devs, instead of creating your own solutions through a "toolbox". This kind of combat experience is what From's offer and Lyric defends.

All of From's modern games, specially Sekiro being the best example, do follow this kind of game design. Is true, as I said, that they cannot get rid of the legacy of action games before them: it can be seen on its mechanics, the way bosses are designed, the fundamentals, from Zelda to MH and in between; those concepts have become ingrained as fundamental elements of 3D action games, From just cannot suddenly get rid of them. Which is why we can compare them. But From's had made a concious effort to go for a more, without any intention of sounding insulting, "primitive" design in an attempt to simulate those old games.

This excerpt from an old interview is quite revealing:

Demon's Souls was born out of a desire to return gaming to its fundamentals - that is, to re-embrace the trial and error and difficulty that we used to take for granted, and leave the player to work things out for themselves. "From the outset, we started making it based on a 'back-to-basics' concept," says Miyazaki. "We wanted a 'game-like game', something that was fun in the way games used to be, and we were confident that we could do it.

Source: - https://www.eurogamer.net/souls-survivor​

While it could be argue that, no it was Kings Field the main inspiration, in other interview he specifies that the core of DeS was very different to Kings Field.

I feel that King's Field and Dark Souls are two separate entities. For starters, yes, the perspective is different, but also they are guided by differing core game design concepts

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2016100...uls-creator-miyazaki-on-zelda-sequels-w443435

So, with this, we can reach the conclusion that a lot of this decisions are a result of this design. In a way, From made a flawed combat system on purpose because it wanted to mimic those kind of games, "back-to-basics", 'game-like games'. The memorization, overly strict timing and limited tools are on purpose. They made for a worse modern action combat system, but bring them closer to the intended combat experience From wanted to create.

But then, comes the issue. How can this be true, if Lyric hates anyhting that feels arcade? Easy. The second key to the equation is aesthetics and game feel. See, the problem with arcade games of old and those derived from them is that they are way too "japanese". DMC, God Hand, Ninja Gaiden, Nioh, Bayonetta, etc, etc. They are too "animu" and "silly". From's new arstyle is not only outstanding, but also very palatable to those that dislike that kind of "animu" aesthetics. So even if you can cut the air a thousand times in Sekiro in the most weebish manner possible, the aesthetics makes them "aceptable" and "cool" compared to Vergil from DMC, who is too "animu". Add great "gamefeel" due to good animation work, sound design and graphics, and it offers the old japanese arcade experience but in a more agreeable package. Lyric himself didn't like using deflection in ER because it didn't feel nearly as good as Sekiro, for example, and I'm sure he isn't the only one, as Sekiro gamefeel is one of the most cited reasons for its success and why combat is good.

Taking all of this into account, an agreement between defenders of Souls and defenders of action combat could never be reached. As action games, From modern games are deeply flawed. Yet at the same time they are trying to offer an specific kind of experience that by necessity will have these flaws. Certain games do a better job at achieving this (Sekiro is the clear one, it nails that feel of being a modern "old" game) and other are more questionable (Elden Ring, which amalgamation of past From's games does throw a bit of a wrench on this idea. Add that they added the more emphasis on memorization of enemy pattern, and is probably why it is the more divise among players). And then you have AC6 which is closer to modern action games in an attempt to keep its own identity while adapting some ideas from their other games.

Now, as my personal opinion, From's combat system does suffer when compared to modern action games. I think Nioh, DMC, MH are superior if we compare them strictly as action games. But is a fact that From's is offering a specific brand of combat experience that by necessity is anathema to good action games design, and perhaps the question is that the quality of their combat is more accuretly measure by how good are they at achieving this specific experience. Of course there are more factors than mere combat to the games quality, ergo why people can dislike ER combat but sill enjoy the RPG, exploration and level design, but that is not so relevant to the discussion.

Another different topic that emerges then, is if this idea of "returning back to basics" is good or was flawed as its conception, and is now reaching their ugly head as they double down on them. Or on the contrary, their are about to reach new heights on this brand of combat.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I would like to correct this idea that i "hate" action games. I don't really dislike them at all, i just don't have as much of an affinity for them and tend to prefer things that are a little more grounded or serious or a combination of the two (and yes, "feel" is also a part of this).

But even that is neither here nor there. For the most part, rather than an active dislike for those kind of games, my unfamiliarity with this genre stems mostly from the fact i skipped the console generation of games entirely. Like i said, i went straight from the arcades to PC. To give you an example, up until a few years ago, i had no idea there was such a thing as a 3D Ninja Gaiden series. I know the arcade game very well and played it to death as a kid, but i never followed the series after that and in fact i didn't even know the series continued as a 3D action franchise.

With that said, there are things in the way FromSoft does combat that in my mind sets them apart from those games as far as i can see. It's not that i necessarily disagree there aren't aspects to their games that could be improved upon, but those improvements shouldn't involve the game suddenly turning into Ninja Gaiden. If i wanted to play Ninja Gaiden, i'd play Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So your entire premise for why Fromsoft is so fucking great... is that their attack patterns are unreadable and require immense trial and error to figure out.

Pretty much, yes. I see them as a kind of "progressive rock" of action games, with Elden Ring veering towards the avant guarde.

I'm approaching FromSoft combat the same way i'm approaching everything else i tend to enjoy. One of the reasons i liked Thief so much is precisely that the levels were challening and difficult to navigate. When i played the game as a teen i had to resort to actually drawing maps on a sheet of paper and i enjoyed the process a great ideal. And in music too i have an attraction to things that are difficult to grasp and require a ton of repeated listening before i can begin to decypher them. I even developed a liking to modern classical music because of this, dispite eventually developing a philosophical disagreement to it. My nick name for instance comes from this:



And to this day i'm still fascinated by the kind of puzzle the music of Anton Webern presents for me.

It's like i have this inner need to bring order to what at first appears to be nothing but chaos. Whenever i set out to beat a boss in a FromSoft game, the fact the fight starts as a confused mess where nothing seems to make sense and i can't understand what the hell is going on is what then gives me the motivation to crack my head against it until a pattern and a logic begins to emerge, and i'm not satisfied until every aspect of the boss is "brought to heel", first conceptually, then on a performance level.

One of my favored moment in Sekiro was trying to figure out Isshin's 7-hit combo. His movements are so wayward trying to figure that out was like a spatial/visual IQ test. I also now regret not taking an extra day or two to get it absolutely perfect but like i said at the time i wanted to leave myself a bit of mystery for a second playthrough in the future.

BTW, if you guys remember i recorded a video of me trying to figure out a boss for the first time:



You can see the typical process involved and that's the most fun aspect of those games for me.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Or on the contrary, their are about to reach new heights on this brand of combat.

We can only hope, because i think with the DLC they reached an impasse. I think the Dark Souls formula needs a complete revamp. If i was in their shoes, i would work on something completely different (analogous to Bloodborne or Sekiro) while they take their time to figure out what they can do to rework the Souls formula. Ditching it obviously is out of the question because it's their main bread and butter, so i wouldn't put any hopes in that.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, looking at the spear boss guy again, i guess the question of "feel" does matter quite a bit. I just love the way he moves, just from an aesthetic point of view alone. There's a fake out he does sometimes where after you step on his spear during a Mikiri where he slowly pushes forward and does a follow up attack (the other variants include pushing you away or sometimes he does a backstep). I think he is one of the few bosses that can do an attack after a Mikiri and the way it's animated is just so damn satisfying.

You can see it here at 2:30:

 

[Damned Registrations]

I get wanting to puzzle out the solution to a problem, but these spastic bosses like Malekith and Margit feel like the 'puzzle' equivalent of a murder mystery where the solution is a dead guy because 'lol he wasn't actually dead GOTCHA!' It's wholly unsatisfying to solve in comparison to figuring out something that obeys some sort of logic. And realistically, you don't even solve such bosses, you just get a lucky pattern and they die before you understand how to deal with half their moveset.

 

[Odoryuk]

(analogous to Bloodborne or Sekiro) while they take their time to figure out what they can do to rework the Souls formula

Bloodborne is Souls

 

[Cheesedragon117]

Playing the fuck out of this game again but haven't been able to get into the server for a week. Get a lot of errors each time. So it boots me and lets me play offline. No idea why.

Enjoying the DLC, but I definitely wish they did the following with the bosses:
1. Fully Restored Radahn fight another way and fought him without Miquella
2. Miquella the god comes back with Godwyn the Golden. Basically, the eclipse to bring back his soul now that Radahn is dead is successful, etc.

Honestly, I really wanted to fight either Queen Marika (or even just a shade of her like Godfrey Shade), or a fully restored Ragadon actually using both Miracles and Sorcery together like he's described in lore.

Really, anything would have been better than the blatant fanservice we got... unlike most I don't really see the point of bringing back Godwyn, being dead is kind of his whole story. They already ruined the perfect ending to Radahn's story with this DLC, do they really have to ruin another?

 

[Odoryuk]

They already ruined the perfect ending to Radahn's story

Why do you think Malenia actually tried to kill Radahn for?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Because she knew what Miquella was planning.

 

[Cheesedragon117]

Retcon. Retcon, retcon, retcon, retcon!!!! That was the most obvious retcon in history!

In the ACTUAL lore of the original trailer they were fighting over the title of Elden Lord. We all know Miyazaki didn't originally plan anything that happened in the DLC, he isn't that good of a writer!

 

[Caim]

Retcon. Retcon, retcon, retcon, retcon!!!! That was the most obvious retcon in history!

In the ACTUAL lore of the original trailer they were fighting over the title of Elden Lord. We all know Miyazaki didn't originally plan anything that happened in the DLC, he isn't that good of a writer!

It's not important whether you're a good wrinter, what is important is if you can convince others that you are.

Same goes for all skills, knowledge, etc. The only important skill in life is how good you can sell BS.

 

[Odoryuk]

Retcon. Retcon, retcon, retcon, retcon!!!! That was the most obvious retcon in history!

In the ACTUAL lore of the original trailer they were fighting over the title of Elden Lord. We all know Miyazaki didn't originally plan anything that happened in the DLC, he isn't that good of a writer!

It's not a retcon if it doesn't contradict the actual events of the game. You thought that they were fighting over the title of Elden Lord, but she was actually fighting so her brother could became something even more than that, there's no contradictions, it doesn't matter that it was not planned from the beginning at all

 

[HumanTotemPole]

I didn't mention it before but I really like a lot of the new SotE weapon movesets. Props to Milady in particular, the transitions between stances are beautiful. I hope From use historical sources again in future. Lots of potential in staying grounded whilst remaining stylish.