Elite Dangerous - Yay or Nay?

[Fishy]

2D game cannot be proper spasim, for obvious reasons.

Some still feel far closer than many 3d efforts though. Objects in Space being a case in point.

 

[anvi]

I don't think the 2d games even attempt to be a 'sim', they are all about having decent gameplay which the bigger budget games fail miserably at.

 

[what am i doing]

They are much better games if you not graphic whore and pick 2D genre instead Comrade.

This tbh, I bought Starsector a few days ago and it is actually scratching the itch that I wanted Elite: Dangerous to scratch. God bless the slavs.

Starsector does have some of the same issues as Elite: Dangerous (and most space sims), like how you get money, get better fleet, so you can make more money, and get better fleet, etc. But at least stuff like travelling around the game world is fun rather than tedious, the NPC portraits look good instead of being godawful procedurally generated crash, the setting, factions, and so on are more interesting and flavourful, exploring outside of civilized space is actually fun, etc. The economy is also better implemented. It's funny how one descriptive paragraph and a small piece of thumbnail art makes every default inhabited world in Starsector have so much more character than any place in Elite: Dangerous, even capital worlds.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

I like playing ED in VR with a joystick. It's very immersive and interesting that way. That said, I haven't played it a ton yet as I am waiting until I'm in the mood to record video episodes of the game again. But the little I've played has been a lot of fun. It controls very well with a good joystick (only cost $250) and the VR headset (HTC Vive Pro).

Jeezus, Flu. Was going to check out this VR set per your recommendation but that's a $1000 piece of kit. What do you do for a living that lets you buy such toys & luxuries? Or is your daddy rich and your mama good looking?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Jeezus, Flu. Was going to check out this VR set per your recommendation but that's a $1000 piece of kit. What do you do for a living that lets you buy such toys & luxuries? Or is your daddy rich and your mama good looking?

I'm very blessed bro, God is good.

I think it was closer to $2000 when I bought it all, prices must have come down. Still, it's a cool investment, Google Earth VR is worth the price alone and games like Skyrim VR and Elite Dangerous are just icing on the cake.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Jeezus, Flu. Was going to check out this VR set per your recommendation but that's a $1000 piece of kit. What do you do for a living that lets you buy such toys & luxuries? Or is your daddy rich and your mama good looking?

I'm very blessed bro, God is good.

I think it was closer to $2000 when I bought it all, prices must have come down. Still, it's a cool investment, Google Earth VR is worth the price alone and games like Skyrim VR and Elite Dangerous are just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but... your God gives you a thrill, but your God don't pay your bills. Now give me money, that's what I want, that's what I want, yeah that's what I want. It's okay if you want to plead the fifth on that and how you come up with 2 grand for a VR set. But you do gotz me curious here and me mind wondering and wandering. You might be a minister in a church or something with a very generous flock, or you might have a secret sugar daddy, or you might be a ward of the state and get a nice monthly stipend. None of my business. No-sir-ree. Unless you wanna share. Blessings of the state, citizen. Enjoy your toys :D

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Yeah, but... your God gives you a thrill, but your God don't pay your bills. Now give me money, that's what I want, that's what I want, yeah that's what I want. It's okay if you want to plead the fifth on that and how you come up with 2 grand for a VR set. But you do gotz me curious here and me mind wondering and wandering. You might be a minister in a church or something with a very generous flock, or you might have a secret sugar daddy, or you might be a ward of the state and get a nice monthly stipend. None of my business. No-sir-ree. Unless you wanna share. Blessings of the state, citizen. Enjoy your toys :D

I do come from a long line of ministers who ran their own churches, so you never know. And wouldn't I have a sugar momma, not a sugar daddy? In any case I definitely enjoy my toys. :D

 

[anvi]

What is your job and are they hiring?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

What is your job and are they hiring?

I don't have a job. In fact I'm retiring to a foreign country soon, just not sure which one (probably Poland, in Warsaw since I like the city.)

 

[anvi]

But how did you get good disposable cash?

 

[Stokowski]

Or is your daddy rich and your mama good looking?

Dammit, man.

 

[DraQ]

What is your job and are they hiring?

I don't have a job. In fact I'm retiring to a foreign country soon, just not sure which one (probably Poland, in Warsaw since I like the city.)

How the fuck can anyone like Warsaw?

 

[anvi]

If you are rich you could live in a poor country like a king.

 

[Trojan_generic]

But how did you get good disposable cash?

Citizens, remember that 2000 bucks is not a lot of cash for VR system, joysticks, SLI PC's etc. Because:
- it's not like you have other hobbies, so you deserve it
- many of the other hobbies require 2000 bucks just to get started (examples: ice hockey gear, paragliding / parachuting, old cars, motorbikes etc.
- most of us are adults, must be after 10 years on the forums.

 

[anvi]

I have other hobbies and they are expensive :C I have enough for gaming but an extra 2 grand for some VR is gonna have to wait until VR is better and there are some better games.

 

[Norfleet]

2D game cannot be proper spasim, for obvious reasons.

In all honesty, space is pretty much 1D when in 3D. With 2D, the possibility of being hit by stray bullets exists because it's harder to avoid stray bullets on a plane. In 3D, the space is so vast, yet empty, that it effectively eliminates all other such concerns and reduces space to a simple line: Towards, or away from, your enemy. I remember playing 3D space simulators in the old text MUD days, and I taught this doctrine to new players, to instead of trying to complicate life by visualizing 3D, to think in terms of a simple 1D line: You're either moving towards, or away from, your enemy. This significantly improved their combat performance. 3D simply expands the playfield to such a large degree of emptiness that it ceases to matter because there's nothing of tactical importance in it, and so you ultimately choose between moving towards your enemy, or away from your enemy, with the option to dodge in a random way. 3D combat in empty space is 1D combat with a dodge button.

 

[Burning Bridges]

What is your job and are they hiring?

I don't have a job. In fact I'm retiring to a foreign country soon, just not sure which one (probably Poland, in Warsaw since I like the city.)

Before I'd go to Poland I'd rather take a gun and end it right on the spot.

 

[Galdred]

2D game cannot be proper spasim, for obvious reasons.

In all honesty, space is pretty much 1D when in 3D. With 2D, the possibility of being hit by stray bullets exists because it's harder to avoid stray bullets on a plane. In 3D, the space is so vast, yet empty, that it effectively eliminates all other such concerns and reduces space to a simple line: Towards, or away from, your enemy. I remember playing 3D space simulators in the old text MUD days, and I taught this doctrine to new players, to instead of trying to complicate life by visualizing 3D, to think in terms of a simple 1D line: You're either moving towards, or away from, your enemy. This significantly improved their combat performance. 3D simply expands the playfield to such a large degree of emptiness that it ceases to matter because there's nothing of tactical importance in it, and so you ultimately choose between moving towards your enemy, or away from your enemy, with the option to dodge in a random way. 3D combat in empty space is 1D combat with a dodge button.

That is not always true.
I remember using the z plane a lot to get some ships in flanking position in Starshatter. But the game needs engagement ranges to be high enough that ships cannot instantly correct their position. But it is not the case in most dogfighting simulator, and even in games that try to give you a fleet to work with (StarPoint Gemini Warlords for instance).

 

[DraQ]

2D game cannot be proper spasim, for obvious reasons.

In all honesty, space is pretty much 1D when in 3D. With 2D, the possibility of being hit by stray bullets exists because it's harder to avoid stray bullets on a plane. In 3D, the space is so vast, yet empty, that it effectively eliminates all other such concerns and reduces space to a simple line: Towards, or away from, your enemy. I remember playing 3D space simulators in the old text MUD days, and I taught this doctrine to new players, to instead of trying to complicate life by visualizing 3D, to think in terms of a simple 1D line: You're either moving towards, or away from, your enemy. This significantly improved their combat performance. 3D simply expands the playfield to such a large degree of emptiness that it ceases to matter because there's nothing of tactical importance in it, and so you ultimately choose between moving towards your enemy, or away from your enemy, with the option to dodge in a random way. 3D combat in empty space is 1D combat with a dodge button.

Only head-on 1-on-1 in flatspace is more or less 1D.

The thing is there is no legitimate reason to fight in flatspace (at best you might sling some missiles for stupid velocity intercept) and you usually don't want to ram your enemy.
When fighting in orbit or with noticeable perpendicular velocity component you get distinct plane of encounter and going out of this plane is often a viable option because that's the easiest way to dodge kinetic fire. And then you can have multiple combatants.

You should play COADE and fight a bit around bigger masses than some ass end of nowhere belt rock.

 

[Norfleet]

I remember using the z plane a lot to get some ships in flanking position in Starshatter. But the game needs engagement ranges to be high enough that ships cannot instantly correct their position. But it is not the case in most dogfighting simulator, and even in games that try to give you a fleet to work with (StarPoint Gemini Warlords for instance).

I actually find that longer engagement ranges exacerbates this. At sufficiently short engagement ranges and high-delta-V, the game turns into a dogfight simulator and the 3D matters. At very long ranges and low relative delta-V, it turns into a 1D joust. At VERY long engagement ranges relative delta-V, it turns into a 0D dot shooter: You no longer have the ability to meaningfully affect any real change in your position relative to the duration of combat and you pew away with whatever weapons you have on you until one or both combatants are neutralized.

And then you can have multiple combatants.

Multiple combatants are never really going to be a thing outside of a rigged scenario, though. With stealth in space being impossible, you will see your opponents coming from well before the combat begins. If you have two forces approaching you from different directions, and you move to engage one of them, the other force will simply not reach the scene of the action until the battle is likely over. Otherwise, they weren't going to reach the original scene of action before it was over. If you have two forces approaching you from the SAME direction, speed, and distance, this is just one big force. So the only way to find yourself fighting two different forces at the same time such that there is not simply a line between the two of you that you're fighting around is if the scenario is somehow rigged to spawn these two forces close enough to engage you simultaneously from two directions. But, well, no stealth in space, so how did they get there?

 

[Galdred]

I remember using the z plane a lot to get some ships in flanking position in Starshatter. But the game needs engagement ranges to be high enough that ships cannot instantly correct their position. But it is not the case in most dogfighting simulator, and even in games that try to give you a fleet to work with (StarPoint Gemini Warlords for instance).

I actually find that longer engagement ranges exacerbates this. At sufficiently short engagement ranges and high-delta-V, the game turns into a dogfight simulator and the 3D matters. At very long ranges and low relative delta-V, it turns into a 1D joust. At VERY long engagement ranges relative delta-V, it turns into a 0D dot shooter: You no longer have the ability to meaningfully affect any real change in your position relative to the duration of combat and you pew away with whatever weapons you have on you until one or both combatants are neutralized.

That is only true if all ships have the same range, but if they have very different ranges, and you need your picket/point defense ships to be between the enemy and your core ships, then positioning becomes very important.
In Starshatter, larger ships also had a nerly impenetrable directional shield that would cover roughly 50% of the directions. I think it was similair in Edge of Chaos.
These also make positioning matter as you cannot afford to have everyone attack from the same direction

 

[Norfleet]

That is only true if all ships have the same range, but if they have very different ranges, and you need your picket/point defense ships to be between the enemy and your core ships, then positioning becomes very important.

Positioning something between two points is still more or less a 1D line, so that hasn't changed.

In Starshatter, larger ships also had a nerly impenetrable directional shield that would cover roughly 50% of the directions. I think it was similair in Edge of Chaos.
These also make positioning matter as you cannot afford to have everyone attack from the same direction

And see, this basically concedes my point: BECAUSE 3D combat in space tends to reduce into a 1D line, they've added dogfight simulator mechanics that depart from a pure space simulation to try to disrupt this. Typical hallmarks of this include short engagement ranges and magic mechanics.

 

[Galdred]

That is only true if all ships have the same range, but if they have very different ranges, and you need your picket/point defense ships to be between the enemy and your core ships, then positioning becomes very important.

Positioning something between two points is still more or less a 1D line, so that hasn't changed.

Indeed, but 2D and 3D allow you to prevent your opponent from doing so:
It is about flanking your opponent so that he cannot intercept everything at once.
Granted, the lack of stealth doesn't help, but you can still use decoys in space (unarmed ships that have a lot of emission).

In Starshatter, larger ships also had a nerly impenetrable directional shield that would cover roughly 50% of the directions. I think it was similair in Edge of Chaos.
These also make positioning matter as you cannot afford to have everyone attack from the same direction

And see, this basically concedes my point: BECAUSE 3D combat in space tends to reduce into a 1D line, they've added dogfight simulator mechanics that depart from a pure space simulation to try to disrupt this. Typical hallmarks of this include short engagement ranges and magic mechanics.

Indeed, most space games use space magic and/or dogfighting, but if it were pure space simumlations, ships would be orbiting stuff (stars or planets), and only use their precious fuel to engage evasive action/change orbit, and send ordnance from afar.
It is true that in this case, 3D would not be very important, but the distance would be mainly set by the relative positions on each orbit, so the 2D would still be important. There would be a relatively minor benefit of 3D: using an orbiting plane orthogonal to that of your opponent would make the range between you and your opponent change less.
But space shooters and strategy games are usually very far removed from what we could call a "realistic" space combat model (except for Children of a dead earth).

 

[ItsChon]

Indeed, most space games use space magic and/or dogfighting, but if it were pure space simumlations, ships would be orbiting stuff (stars or planets), and only use their precious fuel to engage evasive action/change orbit, and send ordnance from afar.

What if it's set in a Universe where we've mastered some magical nuclear fuel or whatever that is super light weight and can power ships for a while? Also, what if the fight is taking place from somewhere far away from a large gravitational force?

 

[Fedora Master]

What if ED was a good game?