Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[aweigh]

Gunnar

Yes, Vigilance is an almost OP class skill, so much so that many would argue that it makes Ninja characters almost a requirement for maximum efficiency during post-game dungeons (as post-game encounters can effectively wipe out, or almost wipe out your entire party during a free Turn); however, as always, Starfish thought about this and:

- the ex-Skill "Counter-Attack" makes your party deal exponentially increasing amounts of damage, both melee and magically, in any encounter where your party gets ambushed. This means that you can safely forego the Ninja character's "requisite" Vigilance class skill if someone in the party has the ex-skill Counter-Attack.

- the exponential increase is no laughing matter as, AFAIK (after examing the game files), there is no ceiling for the bonus. By around the 3rd Turn of the surprise encounter a normal, un-enhanced melee attack will probably be dealing around +50% DMG or even more.

- and... do remember that Counter-Attack is rendered useless if a Ninja is in the party as it doesn't trigger if you don't get ambushed.

So, in summation, you can diffuse surprise encounters by either Vigilance or by someone having Counter-Attack. Or you can have neither, as neither is in any way necessary to beat the post-game. This entire post regarding Vigilance/Counter-Attack, as with almost 90% of the stuff we're all discussing in this thread, is purely for maximum power-gaming and nothing more.

EDIT: Combine Counter-Attack with another character having Last Stand ex-skill, preferably a character that can deal decent dmg (melee or magical), and that means that even if the enemies ambush you and manage to kill off 2 or 3 of your party members in their free Turn; the character(s) with Last Stand will then receive the Counter-Attack bonus(es) along with the Last Stand bonus to A.C. and Evasion thus making them into quite the powerhouses.

This is also a point in the game where the player will realize how incredibly useful it is carrying a 9x stack of Revival Tonics for those situations when, after dispatching the enemies that ambushed you, your surviving Martial-type character(s), or whatever, can then revive the character with access to resurrection spells (or access to the Wish spell) using a Revival Tonic.

 

[Gunnar]

Gunnar

- the ex-Skill "Counter-Attack" makes your party deal exponentially increasing amounts of damage, both melee and magically, in any encounter where your party gets ambushed. This means that you can safely forego the Ninja character's "requisite" Vigilance class skill if someone in the party has the ex-skill Counter-Attack.

- and... do remember that Counter-Attack is rendered useless if a Ninja is in the party as it doesn't trigger if you don't get ambushed.

What is the % cap on Vigilance? I have counter attack on my Samurai, but wouldn't mind having both as I hate getting surprised. (as long as Vigilance isn't 100%, making counterattack totally useless)

I took Hand of Kindness on my Cleric--> Lord for healing power, Brace on my Brawler (saved his ass many, many times), Hunter--> Ninja has Treasure Chest and Hunter-->Alchemist took Magic Essence. What do you think of those picks?

 

[aweigh]

I haven't checked but Vigilance % of triggering is tied to the Ninja's character level versus the enemies' levels, so it will never be guaranteed; that said I have had many Ninja characters +100 level and I still kept getting ambushed enough times inside Ibag's Tower to annoy me. Sure, it triggered a lot, but it was definitely not something I counted on.

Nowadays I prefer relying on Counter-Attack to survive an ambush and, in fact, I sometimes even smile to myself when some fools ambush me as I know they just gave my party a huge DMG boost.

Something I haven't mentioned recently is I have recently come to realize a Samurai's class skill of Swallow Return is a goddamn life-saver in post-game as it can trigger at any time in a Turn, including during an ambush encounter's free enemy Turn.

When I reach Ibag's Tower in my current 3DS version playthrough I am aiming for having 2 samurai in the party just for OP Swallow Return shenanigans.

EDIT: your picks are perfectly good! magic essence is very, very useful because it increases % of landing Mage-school status ailments on high LVL enemies such as MISAMA (sleep) and STOMA (petrify); in the sense that the higher the level and the higher the Magic PWR UP class skill of the char with Magic Essence then the higher the % of magic essence triggering and bypassing the enemy's resistance to Mage-school spells.

In fact, without Magic Essence, it's almost impossible to land sleep or petrify on Ibag's Tower enemies, at least in a reliable fashion.

As for Brace? Bar none the undisputed most useful ex-skill and a good pick for basically every single char; it's just that it's a boring pick.

In previous playthroughs I would've said hand of kindness was a bad pick but now I have come to realize that the increased amount of hit point restoration can be invaluable in regards to conserving spell castings when restoring back hit points after encounters inside Ibag's Tower.

Ibag's Tower is its own universe, man, and anything that makes life easier inside of it automatically makes the thing a good thing; and increased hit point restoration per spell castings meaning more conservation of MP's? incredibly useful.

It can also mean the difference between getting wiped or not during an Ibag's Tower encounter as the character w/ hand of kindness will heal up the party back to proper amounts of hit points thus (probably) ensuring there isn't a need to waste another Turn Action with more healing; whereas without the Hand of kindness the possibility of not healing up enough HP to survive the next turn of enemy attacks is very real.

 

[Haplo]

Vigilance has a static effect of 50% Ambush avoidance.
Counter Attack may be great... but it won't help much if you wipe or almost wipe in the surprise round...

Regarding your EX skills picks, Magic Essence only works for Mage spelles AFAIK. Also Mysterious Bag is the only obligatory skill pick for me (which you don't seem to have).
Treasure Chest may be nice, but very optional, I'd say. The majority of the encounters are fixed ones. And you can farm them, should you be so inclined.

 

[aweigh]

yes, magic essence only works when casting a Mage-school spell, which has been mentioned. it is still a solid pick for landing sleep or petrify as post-game enemies tend to have 50% and upwards resistance to all 3 schools of spells.

Imagine being able to negate an enemy's resistance to Alchemy-school spells! Magic Essence basically amounts to being able to (almost reliably) land sleep/petrify on Ibag's Tower enemies, which is no joke. Sure, it's not an "OP" ex-skill, but it's not a bad pick.

I agree with Haplo that treasure chest is the only questionable pick and even then it's not that bad; yes, you can farm fixed encounters but doing so requires wasting resources (such as, for example, continually re-casting DIOMANTE which, btw, is not something that can be done inside Ibag's Tower).

As for the VIGILANCE info, thanks! That is good to know and that 50% statistic falls right in line with the amount of times it would trigger for me and the amount of times it would not.

EDIT: as for mysterious bag I used to consider it an essential pick in my first few playthroughs but now I've come to relegate it to pure convenience. Just throw out the items you don't need or want, as it's not like you'll be hurting for money. It does mean, however, that you will need a Bishop in the party in order to determine on the spot what to keep and what to throw away.

Only way I'd recommend mysterious bag nowadays is if you're planning on going without a Bishop in-party; which is necessary if you're shooting for an optimal party as Bishops are basically worthless aside from IDENTIFICATION ability. Without an in-party Bishop then, yes, absolutely take Mysterious Bag so you can just fill up the warehouse with loot and IDENTIFY all that shit at your leisure when you finish your dungeoneering.

Otherwise... as i said, identify on the spot everything you get and drop anything you don't want. No need for the Bag ex-skill pick.

 

[Gunnar]

Vigilance has a static effect of 50% Ambush avoidance.
Counter Attack may be great... but it won't help much if you wipe or almost wipe in the surprise round...

Regarding your EX skills picks, Magic Essence only works for Mage spelles AFAIK. Also Mysterious Bag is the only obligatory skill pick for me (which you don't seem to have).
Treasure Chest may be nice, but very optional, I'd say. The majority of the encounters are fixed ones. And you can farm them, should you be so inclined.

Yeah I messed up with Magic Essence, didn't realize it only worked with Mage spells. Ah well.

I like Treasure Chest a lot actually, more loot (which is a major point of the game) and I don't have to pay attention to the fixed encounters.

I did take a hard look at magic bag, and definitely missed having it at first, but as the game progressed I found that I really didn't need it. Once you have teleport, you can just pop out, sell, and pop back in. Even without it, I found (mostly) that once I filled up on loot my resources were running low and I was ready to head back anyway.

I forgot one pick I made - song of healing on my valk, which I totally regret and never use.

Regarding the Bishop, the thing that irritates me is how often he fails to identify loot. I have a 41 Bishop and he fails constantly. How many levels does he need to reliably identify stuff?!

 

[aweigh]

each item has an ID value which rolls vs. the Bishop's level. Yes, it is annoying...

oh, and remember that you cannot use DIOMANTE inside Ibag's Tower.

 

[aweigh]

oh, and post-game enemies tend to bust out sometimes an enemy only ex-skill which disables usage of healing spells.

...except for song of healing

 

[Dorarnae]

the first time I played gothic on psp, my fairy died of old age hehe. but at that time I didn't know it was possible, I was still a noob to the serie(and crawler in general)....

 

[Dorarnae]

damn by the time I write one post, aweigh can write two, I am so slow lol.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I don't have a Bishop in my (so far) final party. So for me Mysterious Bag is even more important, true. However the game just doesn't give me enough item slots to manage. 1-2 free slots per character... it just doesn't cut it. Usually I'm out of space by half of a floor. So even if I had a Bishop and were throwing away more stuff, I'd still run out quickly, as semi-valuable stuff will fill the available item slots fast anyway.

 

[Haplo]

Thx for the feedback. Since I'm going to savewhore the shit out of the game on my first playthrough, I decided to include a Bard.

New Party:

Werebeast Brawler

Dragonewt Fighter (--> Samurai?)
From what I've read the Fighter may actually out damage the Samurai, plus he shouldn't need Mage spells as much due to his breath attack (that can hit the back row, can't it?)

Dwarf Cleric
Soul Release should be a good thing for a party low on offensive magic. Clarification needed, does Cleric Spell Power Up affect buffs or damage spells? Or both?

Human Valkyrie OR Human Alchemist --> Hunter
I don't need a second thief but the Alch/ Hunter seems more versatile. Depends on who has better damage output I guess

Faery Bard
with high AGI

Werebeast Alchemist
so he's not as frail. High AGI for debuffs. Can he inflict poison damage with spells?

Front row seems boring AF but I like the overall feel of the party. Why is it important again to have a healer with high AGI? Haven't most CRPG's taught us otherwise?

'nother idea: switch the Cleric for a Valk, and let the Werebeast Alchemist start as a Cleric. Question is if a Valk does substantially more damage than a Cleric, and if it's worth making the Alchemist lose his super high AGI for a class change.

Can I see the max age anywhere? What's the max age of a Hotlet? Considering a Hotlet for Bard (the higher Luck is also nice because he'll be the thief)

Considering a Werebeast for Valk as well, what exactly does "reviles silver items" do? Werebeasts seem pretty great unless silver items or max age is a dealbreaker.

Okay. That looks decent, but I do have some comments if you want them.

Fighter will outdamage the Samurai long term due to better High Mastery damage bonus. Also one of the best post game weapons is Male Fighter only. That said, a Samurai is more versatile, can cast all Mage spells, can use the various awesome katanas you find, dual wields main-hand weapons and gets this sweet High Mastery Swallow Return skill, which is a boon both defensively and offensively. Also one of the few ways to actually harm some extreme AC enemies.

And no, breath attacks can't hit the back row.

Dwarf Cleric: Actually a pure Cleric is not a great class IMO. Sure noone heals and ressurects like them and they get good armor too, but offensively they are very weak. Can't hit the broad side of a barn. Doesn't
get Physical Damage UP. If you decide to roll one, Chi Wave Ex Skill might actually be a decent pick for him, as it always hits and has unlimited range but doesn't use Physical Attack UP (which he doesn't have).
But this skill costs SP, and characters get a very limited pool of these (square root of their level).
I'm not sure what you mean by Soul Release. Dispel? That's not particularly useful IMO. Immolarati spell? Well, that sure is potent, but costs all MP, so usually not very practical.
Cleric Spell UP mostly affects the healing spells and resurrection success probabilities. Probably also chance for instant death spells to land. Well, there's also Elnam.

Human Valkyrie OR Human Alchemist --> Hunter
Well, Aweigh once wrote that the most powerful party probably consists of 6 Valkyries... It's a very potent class, no doubt.
Human Strength & Piety aren't great. Werebeast would again be good. Unless I'm missing something and Werebeasts are denied access to some of the best spears. Dwarves have great Str and Piety but apparently can't use some nice spears.
As for the Hunter, it can be good, but the best bows are available in the post game. In the base game the bow selection leaves a bit to be desired.
I'd say that unless you multiclass the Cleric/switch him, get a Valkyrie. Otherwise you might be hurtin for more damage output.

I don't think spells apply weapon/natural status effects.
A healer with high Agi maybe isn't critical, but certainly nice to have in order to get that heal off before the enemies murder it's target. Other games aren't as offensive-minded usually.

Valkyrie will vastly outperform the Cleric in the damage department, there's no contest. Might want to pick Hand of Kindness to keep the low and medium-level healing spells relevant at higher levels (otherwise with the HP bloat nothing short a single-target full-heal will do in a pinch). For a Cleric that's less useful, as he gets the High Mastery Cleric Spell UP+ boost.

Characters "loose" stats on class change only temporarily. They will eventually recover (or actually reach racial maximums) on level ups (well, at random, can loose them too). So I wouldn't worry about it much.

The max age for a Hotlet is 80, so not bad. But 6 Int is kinda bad for an off-mage. Unless you assume he's not gonna nuke anyway. As for him "being the thief" - only in regard to trap disarming. He won't be able to steal enemy equipment.
You can check the racial stats for example here: http://elminage-gothic.wikia.com/wiki/Party_Characters
Note that the description for the Devilish race is misleading, their stats are actually static, similar to all other races.

Werebeasts can't use equipment which literally has "Silver" adjective in its name. Some strong items are in this category, like the post-game Silver Rapier. Still, not a deal breaker IMO (but I'm early in the post-game).

 

[Sacred82]

Thx.

Fighter will outdamage the Samurai long term due to better High Mastery damage bonus. Also one of the best post game weapons is Male Fighter only. That said, a Samurai is more versatile, can cast all Mage spells, can use the various awesome katanas you find, dual wields main-hand weapons and gets this sweet High Mastery Swallow Return skill, which is a boon both defensively and offensively. Also one of the few ways to actually harm some extreme AC enemies.

Will class change then. What's a good Ex skill for a Samurai?

Dwarf Cleric: Actually a pure Cleric is not a great class IMO. Sure noone heals and ressurects like them and they get good armor too, but offensively they are very weak. Can't hit the broad side of a barn. Doesn't
get Physical Damage UP. If you decide to roll one, Chi Wave Ex Skill might actually be a decent pick for him, as it always hits and has unlimited range but doesn't use Physical Attack UP (which he doesn't have).

I misread the manual and thought he gets Physical Attack Up. Is to hit chance based on class?

Characters "loose" stats on class change only temporarily. They will eventually recover (or actually reach racial maximums) on level ups (well, at random, can loose them too). So I wouldn't worry about it much.

oh, good then. I thought it fucks up the characters.

 

[Haplo]

Well, Brace is always very useful as a lifesaver and something I ended giving my Samurai.

Swallow Killer is very nice, especially against some enemies, particularly in the post-game. Otherwise attacking them physically can be very painful. Chi Wave is a viable alternative that guarantees accuracy and lets you target the back row. Both cost precious SP. As a Samurai you could try to attack these nasties with spells instead... or go defensive, protect other members and hope your own Swallow Return triggers instead.
Or breath as a Dragonewt.

Caster EX Skills could be nice if you plan to use this aspect more. Probably Magic Essence to improve chance for landing debuffs. He'll never get Mage Spell UP for serious nuking. That said, if you reinforce his elemental attack with items, you could go for Spirit Contract.

Cruelty is a nice pick for a bit more damage.
Last but not least, there's Mark of Ruin for high risk-high reward gameplay.

One more easily missable but important thing to factor in the Fighter vs Samurai decision. Fighter as a basic class will gain new levels MUCH faster then Samurai - an advanced class. Therefore he will hit better and have moar HP. His breath will be better early on (it caps at 200 damage anyways). Also will have moar attacks prior to level 50, when both reach the cap.
Doesn't change that fact that it's the boring class

As for the hit chance, I believe it IS based on class, but don't quote me on this. I know only that my (pure) Cleric couldn't hit much and got like half the attacks of my Brawler/Valkyrie. Didn't help that hammers and maces tend to have poor accuracy.
There certainly aren't many brackets though. Other pure casters have sucky accuracy and don't get any extra attacks at all (other then what the weapon bestows them).

 

[aweigh]

Haplo's pretty spot on his posts. Y'know, about the only change they did for the 3DS port of the game which I think might have some merit is that they slapped Accuracy bonuses onto the majority of Belt-type accessories as well as onto a select few other types of items.

This helps out by giving classes an ACC bonus on their melee to-hit roll which they normally would never get access to, such as Alchemists, Bishops and Clerics.

It is worth noting that Clerics got "nerfed" in this dept. for Elminage: Gothic, as their Elminage: Original class statistics hew much closer to traditional Wizardry where they are a more capable Martial-type class.

Starfish just really, really wanted to make everything purposeful, thus "nerfing" certain classes (such as making the Cleric less Martial-type) and making hammers/staves S-ranged instead of how they are in Elminage: Original, which is M-ranged.

What does this all mean, you ask? Oh, that don't worry, once you're done with Elminage: Gothic you still have another 100+ hours left of playtime via Elminage: Original.

 

[aweigh]

one thing I wanted to stress again is that I never truly appreciated the Cleric class until playing through all 20 floors of Ibag's Tower.

There is simply absolutely, positively no substitute when it comes to casting a resurrection spell. When you're knee-deep in Tower dungeoneering and you simply can't afford for that resurrection spell to fail and have the recipient turn to ashes, then you better fucking believe I ended up class-changing some fool into pure Cleric and then slapping items on him/her to raise their Holy ATK % up past 150%.

It is simply that important to have the rez-spells work, especially in-battle, inside the Tower. Well, the importance depends on how averse you are to reloading and re-doing hours of work, I suppose, so in the end it's "relative".

(Re-doing hours of work because, remember, can't use DIOMANTE inside Ibag's Tower and you need to find a switch to activate the elevator(s) which function every 5 floors; that means that progress inside the Tower is measured by 5 floor stretches and whether or not you manage to activate that section's elevator).

 

[Sacred82]

one thing I wanted to stress again is that I never truly appreciated the Cleric class until playing through all 20 floors of Ibag's Tower.

There is simply absolutely, positively no substitute when it comes to casting a resurrection spell. When you're knee-deep in Tower dungeoneering and you simply can't afford for that resurrection spell to fail and have the recipient turn to ashes, then you better fucking believe I ended up class-changing some fool into pure Cleric and then slapping items on him/her to raise their Holy ATK % up past 150%.

Are you mad? I just got over my procrastinating and now you're pulling out the stops again. Goodbye fingernails.

 

[Haplo]

...unless you can look in the mirror after reloading.... or you can sacrifice some xp and cast a Wish spell.

 

[aweigh]

Haplo

yes, but Wishes are not infinite. I remember literally running out of Wish spells from resurrecting Ash piles while trying to clear floors 15-20 being something that happened regularly.

sometimes would need to cast 1 wish spell for infinite MP and a 2nd wish spell for party evasion, then having to make sure to cast a 3rd wish spell which revived everybody BEFORE finishing the encounter just so my party would be ready and able to continue exploring and not have to cast a Honey Restore back to town (or, worse, simply die).

The Tower is place where Starfish decided to put 16 years of Wizardry game development into the blender and ask its player: how ready are you to power-game, son.

It truly is a marvelous micro-cosm that completely makes you look at the game in a different light.

 

[aweigh]

to put things into perspective though, i recorded that right as soon as I arrived at the 16th floor. By the time my party is/was mopping up mobs in the 20th floor, the type of encounter you see in this video was literally nothing; so no it is not "too hard", it is simply old-school.

 

[Haplo]

Uh, thanks Aweigh.

Excited!

...will finish Tyranny first, though. Was supposed to be a short game.

 

[Gunnar]

Gather 'round men, for my tale of woe:

- finish dungeon run
- spend forever identifying all my crap (bc Bishop sucks at his one jerb)
- spend forever deciding which items to use
- spend forever disassembling/reforging items
- re-enter dungeon fresh as a daisy
- defeat easy mob
- you found a treasure chest!
- Trap is Rockslide
- Disarm trap
- Whoops! Teleporter!
- You teleported inside solid rock - party annihilated
- forgot to save

 

[an Administrator]

SAVE.OFTEN.AND.IN.DIFFERENT.SLOTS

 

[aweigh]

Gunnar

there's nothing quite like dying by trap in a Wiz-clone, isn't there? Hehe. And teleporting into rock?

It's the best way to travel!

Haha.

Here, to make you feel better here's a lil sumthing sumthing that happened to me while playing Wizardry Empire 2 on PC (Starfish made; these were the Wizardry games where they cut their teeth before making the Elminage series):

 

[an Administrator]

Why can't Alchemists make potions?!
Isn't it their actual job?