Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Darth Roxor]

i heard this game's some weeaboo shit

idk why anyone would play it

 

[an Administrator]

What's the gist on Bards?

Useful tarrot cards(may sometimes backfire).

 

[CryptRat]

snip

I disapprove of any party without a shaman, but it's just a matter of taste .

 

[Gunnar]

Human Alchemist --> Hunter

What about the hunter, waste of time?

Hunter is one of the classes that can pick locks / disarm traps. He also does fairly decent damage. Alchemist --> Hunter will retain all his spells so it's a good combo.

 

[Gunnar]

Gunnar

Don't sweat it over Cyclonus too much: last time I was playing the PC version (this was about 2-3 months ago, before I started my current 3DS 'remix' version playthrough) i was getting party wiped by Cyclonus even though I've beaten him countless times. I ended up killing him with only my Thief left alive because he got a lucky dice roll and managed to stay hidden throughout the last leg of the fight and he was capable of dealing juuuuuuuuuust enough DMG to Cyclonus to slowly "outpace" his HP Turn Recovery.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is: bosses are supposed to be hard. And, btw, lol @ your face when you do beat him and realize you still have to escape on foot. haha... ha... heh.

(And yes, it absolutely pays off to deal with his Vampire minions ASAP as their level drain can make the fight fall into "reload" territory; although if you want to be truly loyal to the Wizardry spirit instead of reloading utilize a character's Wish spell and sacrifice 1 of his/her levels in order to restore everybody else's Drained stats... it's what I do).

I mean I get that he's hard but I'm not able to do anything against him at all, it seems completely impossible. If I try to hide I'm discovered instantly, status spells just do not work at all. He kills at least 1 person per turn hitting them for twice their HP, sometimes he acts twice / three times even if I slow him down and speed my guys up, he can split his attacks on multiple targets and he has a counterattack as well. That's with -20 AC party. If I try to attack him I can't do more damage with my whole party than he heals every turn, even with attack frequency buff. If I try to leave a vampire in the front row he can cast Range up. So what gives? Do you have to be really high level or something? My guys are around level 40.

 

[aweigh]

Gunnar

some general tips that will help out in pretty much any protracted fight:

- have at least (at least) 1 character with access to the Mage spell "Wish" (forgot it's in-game name) and when about to get wiped utilize the function that allows you to specifically determine which character in the turn order you wish to take action first and have that character "wish" for health restoration.

- in a similar vein, "wishing" for party evasion is also very good, as well as infinite magic. One (1) character level is really not that big of a deal at the point in the game you're at right now, and the XP from the fight will almost surely give enough XP to level the character up again.

Now, aside from using the Wish spell:

- Remember to utilize the Alchemy spell which "hides" the targeted party member. It is functionally identical to the thief and ninja "hide" skill except it won't fail, and once hidden that party member is unable to be targeted by the enemy.

- A good rule of thumb is to have 1 (or 2) characters whose primary role during the boss fight will be to deal enough damage to the boss(es) to outpace their HP Turn Recovery; meanwhile the remaining 4 or 5 party members should do all within their power to prevent the damage dealers and/or the entire party from being wiped or status-ailment clusterfucked.

(This is when you realize something very important regarding dealing damage...)

- If you can't deal enough damage to outpace the enemy's HP Turn Recovery then the solution is simple: consult the Bestiary and enchant your party's weaponry with Double-Damage properties specifically against these enemies.

- Cyclonus is a "God" type, btw, and almost all of the end-game/post-game bosses, floor Masters and even regular enemies (once inside Ibag's Tower) will also be God types. HINT HINT.

Finally, some more generalised tips:

- If the character(s) with access to Alchemy spells don't need to make anyone "invisible" that particular round then they should be stacking castings of "ORATH" on the party. You can stack buffs up to around 4x or 5x, can't remember; but 1 or 2 castings of ORATH is enough to make your 1 or 2 party "boss killer" damage dealers deal enough damage to outpace their HP Turn Recovery.

- Similarly, remember to utilize the Alchemy spells (and by "utilize" I mean, stack 'em up!) that slow down enemy turn order and the other one that speeds up your party member's turn orders.

I think you probably realize by now that for tough fights having more than 1 character with access to Alchemy spells is... very, very useful.

Similarly, having more than 1 character able to cast RIZEFU and able to cast SAMA EYES in order to clear up status ailments and resurrect characters is... very, very useful.

Oh, they turned into Ash? Time for that character with the Mage spells to "wish" some life back into them. In any case, I think in your specific situation the thing you're probably missing most sorely is dealing enough damage and that means Double-Damange enchantments. Either for Cyclonus or versus Undead (the Vampires), or hey, both.

 

[aweigh]

Oh, and remember that you can press the "Function" key/button during battle and bring up a menu which shows a small summation of what buffs/debuffs are currently active for both your party and the enemy; it even brings up a counter with the number of total spells cast up to that point (which is the counter that powers up the DMG dealt by the Alchemy spell NEO ZADAAR).

A neo zadaar with about 20+ spell castings in stock will deal a fuckton of damage.

 

[Gunnar]

Gunnar

some general tips that will help out in pretty much any protracted fight:

Thanks so much for this info, very helpful

 

[aweigh]

Dorarnae Courtier Dorateen

Oh, btw, I finally found the correct way to utilize "Absolute Barrier". Heh. It's ridiculously OP and I can't believe It took me this long to figure out how to use it:

- You can use the game's "Specific Turn Order Action" command and queue up a Hunter's swift strike, and then throw up an Absolute Barrier.

- Repeat until SP are spent. It's insanely effective and it's the reason why Absolute Barrier's SP consumption was increased from Elminage 3 to 4 (Gothic).

In fact, you can whatever you want while queueing up like for example:

- Have hunter use swift strike 1st, then 2nd make someone Wish party evasion up, then 3rd Turn Order is the Lord's Absolute Barrier.

If the character with the Wish spell and the Lord have good Agility it's a ridiculously OP strategy to get in dem buffs/debuffs.

For whatever reason I just always assumed Absolute Barrier always triggered first regardless of anything else and that is why I simply couldn't fathom why it would be useful; until one day I selected it mid-way through queueing up commands for a Turn and it triggered when I wanted it to. Heh.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, Wish spell and wishing for Evasion turned that fight from "on the edge, almost there, but not quite" to "cakewalk" category.... On second thought, maybe I shouldn't have used it.
Btw. Dragonfly sometimes Charmed him (for 1 round) and he sure did a lot of damage to himself...

 

[aweigh]

They did "balance" the Wish spell though: remember that the menu of options it brings up may not have the option you need or want!

Sure, by post-game a powah gameh prolly has 2 or 3 chars with access to the spell so he or she can just keep fishing for the wish-option they want; but for a 1st time player who prolly only has 1 character with the spell it's a great way to keep it from becoming a win-button.

 

[Haplo]

Gonna start the game soon, have a party planned:

Werebeast Brawler
will stay Brawler.

Human Thief --> Samurai
Human for the spell oints if that makes a difference

Dragonewt Valkyrie
maybe Dwarf?

Human Alchemist --> Hunter

Faery Bishop
Faery was recommended to me for that sweet initiative

Human Mage --> Alchemist

I wanted to come up with a physical combat party. There are too many humans for my taste but not knowing how the game works I wanted a balance between SP and HP. Also the party might actually be better without class changes?

What about the hunter, waste of time?

What's the gist on Bards?

Hello, nice to see more people join the club!

The party looks rather solid.
That said, I wouldn't make a Dragonnewt Valkyrie. With racial maximum of 15 Piety (+0%), she will be a somewhat poor healer and, more importantly, her ressurection spells will have a high risk of failure.
A dwarf would indeed be much batter with a max of 20 Piety. Surprisingly a Werebeast would be good as well (high Agility and turn order is very important here).

A fairy Bishop might work despite the frailty, she's a back row character so maybe won't be targeted too much. And Bishops don't get much gear anyway. But beware of the maximum age of 30. For a front line character this was a major pain for me. Maybe a Bishop will work.
And a fair warning: Bishops gain spells at the slowest rate of all the classes, by far (I'm not kidding, even Samurais get them like 2x faster). To call it a slow class would be an understatement. You may consider teching him spells of some other class first (Cleric or Alchemist?), so that he isn't stuck with low level spells for half the main game.

Hunter should be okay. Personally I prefer Ninjas, but it's a matter of taste (though Vigilance cutting number of enemy ambushes in half is golden).

Bards are okay, I guess. Particularly if you don't want dedicated Mage and Thief/Ninja/Hunter slots in your party. Plus he has the Tarot cards, which are very potent but also risky. Since you plan a Mage, a Bishop, a Samurai and a Hunter, probably skip him.

 

[aweigh]

dwarves do make good valks but annoyingly there are like 2 post-game spears that don't allow dwarven usage (which requires wasting Ores to enchant the limitation off). I do believe it's the Gungnir and the Saint's Spear, but I'm probably wrong on the names (there are way too many goddamn weapons to specifically remember them all).

It's not a deal breaker though. Just goes to show Starfish knows that you we know that dwarves make good valks...

 

[Gunnar]

I beat Cyclanos, thanks again aweigh.

I used the Miracle spell and wished for evasion, after that he couldn't really damage me. All my weapons were enhanced God damage x2 and that did the trick.

I received 88,000 EP for defeating him. I was able to teleport out.

 

[aweigh]

Awesome news Gunnar

good job on passing the game's Tutorial, now the real game begins.

 

[Sacred82]

Thx for the feedback. Since I'm going to savewhore the shit out of the game on my first playthrough, I decided to include a Bard.

New Party:

Werebeast Brawler

Dragonewt Fighter (--> Samurai?)
From what I've read the Fighter may actually out damage the Samurai, plus he shouldn't need Mage spells as much due to his breath attack (that can hit the back row, can't it?)

Dwarf Cleric
Soul Release should be a good thing for a party low on offensive magic. Clarification needed, does Cleric Spell Power Up affect buffs or damage spells? Or both?

Human Valkyrie OR Human Alchemist --> Hunter
I don't need a second thief but the Alch/ Hunter seems more versatile. Depends on who has better damage output I guess

Faery Bard
with high AGI

Werebeast Alchemist
so he's not as frail. High AGI for debuffs. Can he inflict poison damage with spells?

Front row seems boring AF but I like the overall feel of the party. Why is it important again to have a healer with high AGI? Haven't most CRPG's taught us otherwise?

'nother idea: switch the Cleric for a Valk, and let the Werebeast Alchemist start as a Cleric. Question is if a Valk does substantially more damage than a Cleric, and if it's worth making the Alchemist lose his super high AGI for a class change.

Can I see the max age anywhere? What's the max age of a Hotlet? Considering a Hotlet for Bard (the higher Luck is also nice because he'll be the thief)

Considering a Werebeast for Valk as well, what exactly does "reviles silver items" do? Werebeasts seem pretty great unless silver items or max age is a dealbreaker.

 

[Courtier]

There is no max age, more like age brackets (child=>teen=>adult=>old). When characters become really old, they start losing more and more physical stats on levelup.

Fairies, Werebeasts and Humans get into the last bracket fairly quickly (fairy quickest, then werebeast, then humans). Vit reaching 0=permadeath. I've never had anybody die from old age though, I would only worry about it if you have say a 50 yo fairy or 100 yo human who is leveling up a bunch at the inn. Elves, Dwarves and such live pretty much forever.

 

[Sacred82]

I hoped that no class changes meant age wouldn't be as much of an issue for me. Do characters age when you travel between town and dungeons? I have a feeling I'll be backtracking a lot.

Are there (m)any good aligned enemies in the game? I'm asking because of the Bard's cards that double the damage for a given alignment. I thought about making my party half evil and half neutral to be on the safe side, as I guess enemies won't profit from double damage for good either.

 

[an Administrator]

Are there (m)any good aligned enemies in the game?

Those "Friendly-looking" monsters.

 

[Dorateen]

Regarding age concerns, keep an eye out for "Kiss of the Goddess" traps on chests. They will reduce a character's age. Once identified, let the party member you want to make young again intentionally set off the trap.

 

[aweigh]

Bestiary is your friend. Bestiary is life. Any questions you might have about almost anything, Sacred82 , you can find the answer to in the Bestiary.

You don't even have to beat an enemy for it to appear in the Bestiary; all that is required is encountering it. Also, in earlier pages of this thread I uploaded the PC version's game files including the 3 "text/data" files which contain all of the monster information. Think of those 3 files as Bestiary "Plus".

Regarding age: the only real downside to races with a sub-100 year lifespan is simply that by the time you're in post-game, i.e. The Real Game, those characters might begin to enter "old age" and thus receive either zero attribute boosts during a Level Up, or worst case scenario receive an Attribute reduction in the Level Up.

That's it. That's all. Yes, they can potentially die of old age but in my hundreds of hours of playing Gothic on PC this has never happened to any single character in any of my parties, even with 150 year old Humans.

How do you counter this? Have characters with access to the Alchemy spell which raises an Attribute by 1 point, and pay attention to Kiss of the Goddess "traps" when disarming chests.

- High level Thief's ability to guess a chest trap has a ceiling of 95% success ratio, whereas their trap disarming has no ceiling and is the most reliable way of disarming chest traps.

- On the flip-side, the Alchemy spell which tells you the chest trap has a ceiling of 100% success ratio, but a 95% success ceiling for the spell that disarms the trap.

This means that if you're fishing for Kiss of the Goddess trapped chests simply cast the Alchemy spell and then have the old age character open the chest.

And I've already said this as well in previous posts but casting the spell which tells what trap the chest has also raises a character's success ratio (i.e. it provides bonus % on the dice roll) when character-disarming the trap; however it does not do the same when disarming via spell. Disarming via spell is locked at 95%.

 

[aweigh]

Oh! Also dying and getting resurrected also affects negatively the rate at which Attributes will be raised during a Level Up.

This is why there is a counter in the Character Sheet keeping track of how many times a char has died. It's a vicious cycle:

- A faery character with low VIT keeps getting killed and then resurrected, which increases their Age by +1, and the older they get the less chance of that VIT attribute raising on a Level Up, thus almost ensuring further deaths and further resurrections.

Like I said, having 2 chars with access to the Alchemy spell PROTECTORATE is great and should probably be a game goal of any competent party looking to clear all 20 floors of Ibag's Tower. Why? Because then that hypothetical faery character can immediately boost their VIT by +2 points at any given time, instead of having to wait and hope their VIT rises on their next Level Up; plus once the 2 spell-having chars level up again and re-learn the spell, that's another +2 points "on deck" for whatever character needs a quick Attribute boost.

 

[aweigh]

TRIPLE POST!

And remember that there are a good amount of weapons, shields and armor that raise stats! And ankhs as well! If you consider looking up that particular item info to be "cheating" (I don't) then simply test out item SP Invocation effects and then reload the game after finding out.

Remember to fucking write it down too cos there are 714 items in the PC version and there is no way to remember specific shit no matter how autistic one gets about the game.

 

[Haplo]

Well, my fairy Brawler was nearing "old age" by mid-game - of the "Tutorial" part, that is. Fortunately I wanted to retire her and replace with a monster adventurer anyway.
Also I didn't find ANY "Kiss of the Goddess" traps before end-game dungeons (probably first was in the Sanctuary or Vulcano).

 

[Gunnar]

I used the medal to change my Devilish Innocent Hunter into a Ninja, but his stats dropped to minimum, at high level it would take forever to level them all back so I'm leveling up an Alchemist to quickly Wish him some stat gains. Loving Vigilance, many surprise attacks can wipe the party, and Beheading works even for ranged weapons, which is great!