Europa Universalis IV

[tyrannosaurus rex]

^ you're a massive retard

 

[Makabb]

and silence it was

 

[Andnjord]

Wrong thread, we have a perfectly good CK2 megathread for that sort of thing....

...oh wait

 

[sser]

So why are ya fucked if you don't own Common Sense?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Going back earlier to the current Pdox DLC model itself, look at it like this:

Move all the free patch additions and features into the accompanying DLC. Looks rather bigger now, doesn't it? And you'll also have to note that this way no one could play with anyone who lacks the latest DLCs or have any patches beyond the last patch for whatever they have. The current model is generally based around providing the free patch for compatibility and demo functions.

Or would it be alright if they just sold the DLCs on physical discs like Doomsday?

 

[Serus]

Vaarna pls tell me you are trolling. If not then this is all i have to say on the subject: .

 

[MoLAoS]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

 

[Wilian]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

 

[MoLAoS]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

Yes if you wait for Steam sales it can be relatively cheap. What non-cosmetic DLC do you not have? Also the model relies on most people buying at full price.

 

[Wilian]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

Yes if you wait for Steam sales it can be relatively cheap. What non-cosmetic DLC do you not have? Also the model relies on most people buying at full price.

I don't buy cosmetics, I have now all minus one or two expansions. And if the model relied on being full price it would not be on sale every month.

Fuck if I care what it relies on as long as I get my enjoyment out and so far the dorra->enjoyment rate has been positive.

 

[MoLAoS]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

Yes if you wait for Steam sales it can be relatively cheap. What non-cosmetic DLC do you not have? Also the model relies on most people buying at full price.

I don't buy cosmetics, I have now all minus one or two expansions. And if the model relied on being full price it would not be on sale every month.

Fuck if I care what it relies on as long as I get my enjoyment out and so far the dorra->enjoyment rate has been positive.

Well 2 expansions could total as much as 30$ at full price. Probably 10$ on most sales. And sure, the overall dollar per hour is great, but the base game vastly outperforms expansions. Also the sales are not every month and they are only on older DLC till they get most of the people willing to pay full price.

 

[Wilian]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

Yes if you wait for Steam sales it can be relatively cheap. What non-cosmetic DLC do you not have? Also the model relies on most people buying at full price.

I don't buy cosmetics, I have now all minus one or two expansions. And if the model relied on being full price it would not be on sale every month.

Fuck if I care what it relies on as long as I get my enjoyment out and so far the dorra->enjoyment rate has been positive.

Well 2 expansions could total as much as 30$ at full price. Probably 10$ on most sales. And sure, the overall dollar per hour is great, but the base game vastly outperforms expansions. Also the sales are not every month and they are only on older DLC till they get most of the people willing to pay full price.

Why don't you go and wait for better deals then?

Best part of romanticising the expansion era is how fucking stupid people are about it.

 

[MoLAoS]

The marginal return on investment for the DLC compared to the base game and sequel model is fucking ridiculous. And what do we get for it? Barely anything. The development system and forts are not worth 15$ when the base game dropped for 40$.

I don't know about you, but I've paid roughly 60e total for entire game + all DLC minus two.

If this is the worst business model ever I'm willing to go with it.

Yes if you wait for Steam sales it can be relatively cheap. What non-cosmetic DLC do you not have? Also the model relies on most people buying at full price.

I don't buy cosmetics, I have now all minus one or two expansions. And if the model relied on being full price it would not be on sale every month.

Fuck if I care what it relies on as long as I get my enjoyment out and so far the dorra->enjoyment rate has been positive.

Well 2 expansions could total as much as 30$ at full price. Probably 10$ on most sales. And sure, the overall dollar per hour is great, but the base game vastly outperforms expansions. Also the sales are not every month and they are only on older DLC till they get most of the people willing to pay full price.

Why don't you go and wait for better deals then?

Best part of romanticising the expansion era is how fucking stupid people are about it.

Because I don't want to sit around trolling for deals all day, messing with the beta/version settings in steam after an expansion ruins the game with paid only features, and so forth. Its like extreme couponing. Its way more hassle than its worth. Also if I had waited, till the first time say, Common Sense went on sale, I would have missed out on the early days where the game was a 6/10 instead of the 4/10 it is now. They nerfed the shit out of stuff like vassal feeding for instance. I'd never have played the game when you could really go crazy with it.

 

[LizardWizard]

Vassal feeding did nothing but trivialize the game. But I'd say I'm enjoying the game a bit more knowing I only paid 4.99 usd for Art of War.

 

[MoLAoS]

Vassal feeding did nothing but trivialize the game. But I'd say I'm enjoying the game a bit more knowing I only paid 4.99 usd for Art of War.

Trivialize it how? You had to be clever and plan things out and minmaxing your peace deals and the area of the world you put your resources into to get the best vassals was tons of fun. Do you mean it made it too easy to win? Because the game can't be hard because people post fucking guides for everything so a frigging toddler could restore the Roman Empire.

Honestly the current Paradox system of increasing time and cost to conquer stuff is terrible. Its not hard, and you have nothing to do while waiting for mana to generate. It just increases the time you need to spend on speed 5 watching the years tick by.

 

[LizardWizard]

Vassal feeding did nothing but trivialize the game. But I'd say I'm enjoying the game a bit more knowing I only paid 4.99 usd for Art of War.

Trivialize it how? You had to be clever and plan things out and minmaxing your peace deals and the area of the world you put your resources into to get the best vassals was tons of fun. Do you mean it made it too easy to win? Because the game can't be hard because people post fucking guides for everything so a frigging toddler could restore the Roman Empire.

Honestly the current Paradox system of increasing time and cost to conquer stuff is terrible. Its not hard, and you have nothing to do while waiting for mana to generate. It just increases the time you need to spend on speed 5 watching the years tick by.

How is it clever? What there was another option but fight the world.

 

[Monocause]

Because I don't want to sit around trolling for deals all day, messing with the beta/version settings in steam after an expansion ruins the game with paid only features, and so forth. Its like extreme couponing. Its way more hassle than its worth. Also if I had waited, till the first time say, Common Sense went on sale, I would have missed out on the early days where the game was a 6/10 instead of the 4/10 it is now. They nerfed the shit out of stuff like vassal feeding for instance. I'd never have played the game when you could really go crazy with it.

It wasn't clever, it was retarded. If anything, map painting is still way too easy in this game, particularly if you're playing a non-european country. The only strategy for most Asian countries that have a respectable starting position - Placate Ming, eat everyone else, eat Ming piece by piece. When a Western power declares, have a fuckton of heavy ships ready and sink their fleet. By the time you westernise this becomes a game of watching truce timers and repositioning troops. I even had a game where I played for like 20 years on -3 stability because I couldn't care about truces anymore.

The game's currently lacking something akin to CK2's demesne limit that would be dependent on your ideas and tech. There just aren't any penalties or limits to growing. Vassal feeding was ridiculous bullshit and essentially an exploit that allowed you to bypass mechanics that were put in place exactly to prevent you from steamrolling everyone, like aggressive expansion. Heck, you even made savings on the coring cost and afterwards POP! and a country the size of present-day Russia happily integrates.

A mechanic where the bigger you are the more vulnerable you get to internal struggles is sorely needed. Not fucking vassal feeding.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

A different sort of bloat-counter AND something to severely restrict shipping troops distant overseas would be nice.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

A mechanic where the bigger you are the more vulnerable you get to internal struggles is sorely needed.

Both MEIOU & Taxes and Veritas et Fortitudo have mechanics to that effect: the bigger you blob, the bigger penalties you get to various modifiers, which can be countered by ideas and decisions. Although, the penalties are still rather mild, I think - but I suspect they're this way so as not to further cripple the poor AI.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Sounds like a rather odd rationale though, since you can set things up in a way where the penalties are different for the player and AI.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

That was just my guess, I know nothing about the inner workings of the mods. It might just be a way of not scaring away casual players or lack of balance testing.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The general problem isn't so much the ease of map-painting IMO, but that a smaller centralized state isn't going to rival a map-painting empire. Now, Development is a good step in the right direction, and it should be fairly easy to mod in a sliding scale of pros and cons that can make a smaller state a viable dynamic power. That would leave overseas doomstacks as the major problem to fix, where I'm not sure if it would be better to get a way to make it prohibitively expensive to ship fully sized stacks to the New World or if overseas stacks should have such gigantic attritition that only small stacks can handle overseas deployment. I don't think there's a way to do either of those yet properly.

 

[MoLAoS]

Because I don't want to sit around trolling for deals all day, messing with the beta/version settings in steam after an expansion ruins the game with paid only features, and so forth. Its like extreme couponing. Its way more hassle than its worth. Also if I had waited, till the first time say, Common Sense went on sale, I would have missed out on the early days where the game was a 6/10 instead of the 4/10 it is now. They nerfed the shit out of stuff like vassal feeding for instance. I'd never have played the game when you could really go crazy with it.

It wasn't clever, it was retarded. If anything, map painting is still way too easy in this game, particularly if you're playing a non-european country. The only strategy for most Asian countries that have a respectable starting position - Placate Ming, eat everyone else, eat Ming piece by piece. When a Western power declares, have a fuckton of heavy ships ready and sink their fleet. By the time you westernise this becomes a game of watching truce timers and repositioning troops. I even had a game where I played for like 20 years on -3 stability because I couldn't care about truces anymore.

The game's currently lacking something akin to CK2's demesne limit that would be dependent on your ideas and tech. There just aren't any penalties or limits to growing. Vassal feeding was ridiculous bullshit and essentially an exploit that allowed you to bypass mechanics that were put in place exactly to prevent you from steamrolling everyone, like aggressive expansion. Heck, you even made savings on the coring cost and afterwards POP! and a country the size of present-day Russia happily integrates.

A mechanic where the bigger you are the more vulnerable you get to internal struggles is sorely needed. Not fucking vassal feeding.

So you are one of those people. Okay. I played Ottomans a lot but I suppose they count as Europe? Yes as Korea its all about Ming, but as a Euro power its all about France and Austria so what's your point?

What, did you want me to sit around all day adding one new province every zillion years? Sure Paradox should add internal management mechanics. But they shouldn't restrict me from conquering the world if I play smart. Its an alt history game, I don't care for the historical railroading. CK2's demesne limit doesn't matter because I go north korea style. And since all my money comes from ransoming and banishing and shit, and my income is nothing, I can spam present debutante 100000 times to get a genius strong attractive lustful wife of age 16. Plus 3 concubines. Fun times. Tying advisor shit to income was the dumbest thing Paradox ever did.

 

[MoLAoS]

The general problem isn't so much the ease of map-painting IMO, but that a smaller centralized state isn't going to rival a map-painting empire. Now, Development is a good step in the right direction, and it should be fairly easy to mod in a sliding scale of pros and cons that can make a smaller state a viable dynamic power. That would leave overseas doomstacks as the major problem to fix, where I'm not sure if it would be better to get a way to make it prohibitively expensive to ship fully sized stacks to the New World or if overseas stacks should have such gigantic attritition that only small stacks can handle overseas deployment. I don't think there's a way to do either of those yet properly.

Why would a small state be viable? If you conquer as much land as Alexander or Rome, then some 10 province dude is just fucked. Nothing they can do. After all Alexander died from poison or food poisoning or something. He didn't lose, although his army wimped out. And Rome only fell due to massive world changing Barbarian invasions. Hell Rome was tall as shit compared to most nations and wide too and it still lost to massed barbarians. Now if you conquer like, Iberia , France, and Italy, and then march 1million men across the world to conquer Ming, sure your much stronger but you should lose because holy shit supply lines. But that has nothing to do with Ming being tall or something.

Also development is boring as fuck.

Large states lost to small states because they were incompetent or through infighting and shit. Since the player is an immortal genius who can call on the combined knowledge of 1000000 other immortal geniuses and can also time travel and start all over fixing any mistakes, of course they fucking curbstomp the AI. What did you expect? Even if the AI played smarter it wouldn't matter. Unless every AI in the game DoWed the player day 1 and wiped them out but then you wouldn't even have a game.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

The general problem isn't so much the ease of map-painting IMO, but that a smaller centralized state isn't going to rival a map-painting empire. Now, Development is a good step in the right direction, and it should be fairly easy to mod in a sliding scale of pros and cons that can make a smaller state a viable dynamic power.

Yeah, that's my big hope for Common Sense. I've never been a fan of blobbing. I won't be playing it until way down the bugfixing line and a VeF update, but really looking forward to finally building prosperianous empires rather than hordes in disguise.