Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Europa Universalis IV

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by raw, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. trais Arcane Patron

    trais
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,811
    Location:
    Festung Breslau
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Yeah, I kinda like the new trading mechanic, it's basically the only major element that was significantly improved over its EU3 counterpart. It creates some emergent gameplay, like e.g. I wasn't initially interested in expanding into Crimea, but since I broke Lithuania's spine, there wasn't anyone left to pull significant amount of trade north. So Ottos were able to move all that lucre into Constantinople and that was waaaay to much money to simply let them have it. So I had to put my other plans on hold and rush into into the area to secure high trade power provinces, if only to deny them to my rival. Drang nach Osten basically.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    6,017
    Location:
    Italy
    i never managed to get enough money from trade, not even at the end of the 1001 provinces achievement. fleets of fleets, steering everywhere, collecting only at dead end nodes, owning all the caribbeans, central and south america, it provided just peanuts, barely enough to keep 100% army and navy.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,726
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland
    Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Not even as a focused trading nation?

    Anyway, most value is not really in the Americas, but in what comes back to Europe from there. That's where you gotta collect.
    At least that's what I remember from last playing it - which is probably 2 years ago (hard to go back to that combat after HoI4).
     
    ^ Top  
  4. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    6,017
    Location:
    Italy
    not even as venice.
    while in eu3 with venice i managed to end the hre in 1420. i'm not a noob, but there must be something glaringly obvious i completely missed.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. Higher Game Arcane

    Higher Game
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    12,810
    Location:
    Female Anus
    You abuse bankruptcies before you get any trade company investments.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,857
    Most of the time its actually better to collect with all of your merchants rather than steer. Steering is only for when you have >90% power in all nodes along the path along with the end node.

    Also EU3's trade is obviously superior to EU4's trade in every way.
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Mortmal Arcane

    Mortmal
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    6,895
    For that you need the tall build i explained earlier, you probably pick ideas as soon you can , dont, only pick 3 mains ideas Quantity first, economy second, and quality last just to fill your nation bar. Stack up every provinces development cost bonus and level up the provinces to insane levels. Anything will snowball into a powerhouse.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. trais Arcane Patron

    trais
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,811
    Location:
    Festung Breslau
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Trading in EU4 can be quite unintuitive, but once you understand how it works, it's quite easy to manage it.


    So here's my Trading in Eu4 101 with pictures, starring my trusty vassal BigMackl:

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, he's quite a unit, but nonetheless, most of his income comes from trading. So how is he doing that? How can my republic be as rich as BigMackl? Do I need to 200 Light Ships for that? Well, let's see...

    [​IMG]

    Nope, AI being retarded as it is, has sunk most of it naval capacity into Heavy Ships, Galleys and Transports. Only 5 ships are currently Protecting the Trade. But BigMackl can rake its fat stacks of money regardless of that, by focusing on other things.

    But before we get into that. We need to know what makes any business successful. There are 3 key things to that and those are: location, location, LOCATION!

    [​IMG]

    As you can see in that red box, BigMackl has that covered, by sitting in quite rich trading node, that gives it +28.53 Local Trade value to begin with. Where does this number comes from? It's simply number of Goods Produced x its Price, from each and every province that belongs to that node (marked red on the map). When someone builds a Workshop, Manufacture or raise Base Production development in such province, this number goes up.

    But in this case, way more goods are coming into this node from elsewhere, as shown in the Incoming number. BigMackl helps with that, by sending his merchants to other nodes to Steer Trade in appropriate direction (red circles).
    Still, to actually get your hands onto that pile of moolah, you need to have lots of Trade Power, and there are two ways you can get that.


    [​IMG]

    As you can see in the box, Trade Powers comes either from Light Ships or Caravans (depending on whether Trade node is sea based or land based) or Provinces, and then it's later modified by various stuff.
    Now, Light Ships are based on well... having Light Ships do appropriate Missions in the node. Caravan power is based on your total development, but it's capped at +50, so it hardly matters anyway.
    Provinces are much more interesting, because when it comes to trade, not all provinces are created equal.

    [​IMG]


    As you can see, BigMackl has many provinces in the node, but in reality only 3 of them matters. So what makes Hamburg 10x more important than the 4th one on the list? Let's take a look:


    [​IMG]

    Those tiny pictures marked in the red box are what make Hamburg that important. Those are Estuaries and Centers of Trade. Some provinces have either one of them or both. And they're super important, because those raise Base Trade Power, which you can further enhance by building Marketplace, Trade Depot or Stock Exchange. Without them, even +125% to fuck-all is still fuck-all. So don't build Marketplaces in provinces without them, or you'll make Baby Jesus cry. Unless you're already at the point in game when you earn more money than you can spend, then like whatever, do what you want. At that point Baby Jesus doesn't care anymore.

    But before you go and dominate your first Trade Node with ships or properly developed key provinces you hold, let's look at modifiers first:

    [​IMG]

    There lots of things that give you boni or mali to Trade Power: Ideas, Traditions, Prestige, Power Projection, Events etc. But what's that "Transfer from ..." stuff? Those are your merchants, steering trade from upstream. They don't need to be in continuous chain, just somewhere upstream and NOT COLLECTING. When you collect somewhere and that "somewhere" isn't your Main Trading Node, you're gonna lose all that bonuses. All of them. Not to mention, you're gonna get slapped with hefty penalty to your Trade Power, just like Sweden in this case:

    [​IMG]

    Sweden's main node is in Baltic, so they get -70% for collecting in Lubeck. Plus whatever they lose in Baltic by not having those transfer bonuses applied there as well. And they have both Trade and Expansion Ideas unlocked, so that gives them at very least 6 merchants for potential +60% Trade Power.

    I don't know why Sweden's AI simply haven't moved their Main Node to Lubeck, maybe it doesn't have diplo power to do that. Or maybe it did the math and calculated that it's still marginally better off the way it is now.
    Anyways, be like BigMackl, not like Sweden.

    Now, what does all this Trade Power stuff gives you? It gives you a slice of the pie, more power equals bigger slice obviously.

    [​IMG]

    In our case, BigMackl gets 30% of the pie. I know, I know, tooltip says 30% of Trade Power "among countries Collecting from Trade", but tooltip is wrong. It's total Trade Power in a node. You need to trust me on that, but there's another tooltip I didn't screenshot, that says that BigMackl "collects 32.56 gold from that Trade Node", so it's 30% of all the goods that are Local + Incoming. Outgoing is simply what's left after countries that are collecting are done, and that amount is transferred further downstream. That makes Total, well, quite simply the total amount that is collected by all the countries that are collecting in the node.

    "But wait", you're gonna ask, "how come our hero BigMackl makes 80 gold in profits, when it only collects 32.5 gold from the trade? And this is where another modifier, called Trade Efficiency comes into play.

    [​IMG]

    This is all the stuff that modifies your actual income. As you can see, it grows naturally with tech, but there are also plenty of stuffs that add to or subtract from it, from Policies through Advisors, to estate loyalty. Long story short, when you multiply 32.56 that is collected by 246% from Trade Efficiency it gives you your final profit of 80.1 gold per month from trade.



    So to summarize all of that above, how to make money from trade:
    1. Find a rich Trade Node, or make your Trade Node rich by producing goods locally or steering trade into it
    2. Dominate it with your Trade Power either by controlling key provinces or sending Light Ships or both
    3. Stack on appropriate modifiers to (Global) Trade Power and/or Trade Efficiency to maximize profits
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2021
    • Brofist x 3
    • (autism) x 2
    • gimme dem dolla bills x 1
    • I found this text to be too long and as such I didn't read it x 1
    • Thanks! x 1
    • Prestigious x 1
    • Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    6,017
    Location:
    Italy
    tl;dr. i picked the game again with all the dlcs, naples game, usually a very poor start. never had this much money since i imported in eu4 the ck2 save where i conquered the whole map (back when it was only europe and a sprinkle of middle east). as soon as i caught venice off guard i've been swimming in gold.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

    NJClaw
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    4,889
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    The new pillage capital thing sounds interesting, but it really depends on what the cost will be. If it's something around 20-30% then I will probably try getting back into the game to see how it plays out, but it will probably be higher than that.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    26,637
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    It sounds retarded. It should have been an option that you could do once a war for every enemy,not a peace deal lol. Imagen having 20 year war and decide to make peace with the enemy and he is all "lol let me raze your capital and take your women in it" and you are all "lol sure you have 50% warscore,surely our ancestral home and the core of our culture and nation is not worth as losing 5 useless provinces!"
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Messages:
    6,017
    Location:
    Italy
    it should have worked like the steal colony with -4 or -5 global diplomacy rating or whatever it's called.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. trais Arcane Patron

    trais
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,811
    Location:
    Festung Breslau
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    Concentrate Development as peace deal... meh, but I guess there are times, when you're at war with someone who is allied to couple of HRE minors and you just want to ignore them, because they're not a threat, but your vassal occupies them anyway and then they start spamming you with "we'll pay you 15 ducats and some loose change in war reparations" peace deals for the rest of the war. So I guess stealing some development instead might be a good alternative to either accepting worthless peace treaty or enduring the spam for warscore.

    But why on bloody earth you'd want to do that to any of the territories that you actually own, I have no idea.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

    NJClaw
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    4,889
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Maybe it counts as an active development of the provinces that receive the boost, so it can help you develop an institution in your capital state.

    You could also use it to suck away some development from newly conquered territories with very high local autonomy in order to move that development points where they actually do something for your economy and military. But it sounds like a very meager short-term boost with terrible long-term consequences.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    26,637
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Outside of institutions development is pretty non factor at this point. It seems a legit way to get instant institutions. Just wage war to a bunch of hre minors that have a lot of allies a year before the institution spawn,and you get it fast.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. trais Arcane Patron

    trais
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,811
    Location:
    Festung Breslau
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    NJClaw Ok, institution stuff might be actually legit.

    But that other thing you mentioned is definitely not worth it. Governing Capacity is never a problem so you can make it a state, click the "reduce Local Autonomy" button and it will be at ~25% instantly, then slap autonomy reducing edict on top and you'll have 0% in a decade or so. Losing 20% of province development to avoid that isn't weighing short term vs long term gains, it's just being dumb.

    Edit:

    [​IMG]

    Lolz.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • When words are not enough When words are not enough x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

    NJClaw
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    4,889
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    And that's why it probably won't work.

    I don't know, maybe it can make sense if the territory you just conquered is of a different culture/religion and you can't deal with that at the moment? It doesn't sound right to me, but I'm really trying to play devil's advocate here.

    Another scenario (very farfetched in single-player) is when you know you are going to lose a war soon against a country that only wants a specific chunk of your territories (due to geographic reasons or to the casus belli they are going to use). For example, maybe with England you can sack your French land knowing you're going to lose that soon.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. trais Arcane Patron

    trais
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,811
    Location:
    Festung Breslau
    Grab the Codex by the pussy
    I understand and respect you for the effort, but I think you've taken on an impossible task.

    This is so specific to England, and only due to historical starting position, that you might as well make it English decision, rather than a mechanic. Otherwise, you simply don't expand in places you don't intend to keep, because initial coring cost/overextension penalty makes it not worth the effort.

    I guess... if you really don't want to keep the land, but want to weaken your neighbor without giving him reconquest CB, you can do this:
    1) get some provinces in a peace treaty that are releasable as vassal (or use client state when later in game)
    2) release them as vassal/client state
    3) leech the vassal/client for as much dev as you can
    4) wash your hands off by granting it its independence

    Only there are two problems with that: this is some horrible gamey shit that detracts from the game rather than adds to it and with missions being what they are, your neighbor probably has a permanent claim on half of your country anyway, so he can DoW you anytime regardless.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,857
    Concentrate development will be insanely OP if implemented as indicated, just only state your capital and then suck up all the development to the capital. Never need to build anything again. Get -75% coring cost on everything (assuming you can first drain away 50% of dev before coring and then keep it as a territory). If you can drain away dev before coring it also means being able to take much more dev at once in a war and lower the OE immediately after.

    Keep in mind that dev at the capital is worth ~2-3x the value of dev in newly conquered land that suffers some combination of wrong culture/wrong religion/no buildings/high autonomy. And if you actually focus on playing "tall" then you can just re-dev provinces from 3->10 at insanely cheap costs and then teleport it back to the capital. Expect to see capital states with literally thousands of dev and every building built.

    The two governments that make it 100% efficient rather than only 80% will of course just be even better at this and there is absolutely no reason not to spam that with them at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
    • incline incline x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Messages:
    10,434
    So this is a thing:
    [​IMG]

    I'm guessing that it got added in Emperor?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • incline incline x 2
    • Yes Yes x 2
    ^ Top  
  21. Lady Error █▓▒░ ░▒▓█ Patron

    Lady Error
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,284
    Strap Yourselves In
    Does anyone know which DLC completely fucked up the estates screen? It was possible to recruit generals and admirals there, but now everything costs crown land - of which you do not have enough to begin with.

    As to trade, the length of the trade route seems to play a role. So if you can steer trade from Indonesia or India to your node in Europe, you are golden.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

    NJClaw
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2016
    Messages:
    4,889
    Location:
    Bologna, Italy
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Unless I'm brainfarting, the crown land mechanic was introduced with the free update that came with the Emperor DLC.

    Yeah, trade value gets multiplied at each node.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Lady Error █▓▒░ ░▒▓█ Patron

    Lady Error
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,284
    Strap Yourselves In
    Is the Emperor DLC worth it otherwise?
     
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  24. Stavrophore Arcane

    Stavrophore
    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    Poland
    You need longest trade route possible plus lots of trade steering which creates trade value out of thin air. You can have huge trade income like 2k ducats per month with minimal effort of snagging some key provinces and owning lots of manufacturing in places like india.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Mikeal Magister

    Mikeal
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2,089
    Location:
    Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
     
    • incline incline x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.