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Azdul

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the claim was made that the team had modified various games to fix glitches, bugs and other stuff.

So out of curiosity I asked which ones, as in "is there a list of changes available somewhere?"

Turns out there wasn't, and I was told to join the Discord-server to keep track of any such changes, or make contributions to the project (which I have done in the past).

No. I'm sorry, but that's not acceptable. Not to me, and not to common sense. It's the equivalent of putting all of your eggs in one basket that's being held by a hungry-looking fox. It WILL end badly.
What eXoDOS is doing is not preservation.

What MESS, MAME or ScummVM are doing - is providing publicly available non-copyrighted files and checksums for copyrighted part. End-user provides copyrighted part - by e.g. downloading 'Complete ROMs collection' from P2P - or from
https://archive.org/details/Total_DOS_Collection_Release_13 or by dumping his own copy if he wishes so.

TOSEC documents checksums for software no matter if they can be currently correctly emulated.

That's the lesson learned from early NES emulation - where many ROMs were modified to run correctly on early emulators - and couldn't run on real hardware or more accurate emulators. In a way it already happened to DOS games - just calculate checksum on various Dune 2 versions downloaded from various abadonware sites.
 

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What eXoDOS is doing is not preservation.
Watch the first linked video and you'll get it why this project is important. DOS games are not console games where you insert a cartridge or CD and the game just runs. The number of people who have the knowledge to configure DOS games properly is shrinking by year.

Strictly speaking, I agree with you, though. But there is already TDC and TOSEC for that. Still, those projects don't help the average guy who just wants to play the game. Now I have the original files, then what? Most have zero idea.

ScummVM is an interesting example because although they use the original data files, technically many ScummVM packs don't even include the EXE files. Ironically, ScummVM then applies a hardcoded set of fixes and patches to the games themselves (although they document that to some degree), plus the engine reimplementation is usually not quite the same (some differences are minor, but technically if we're in "strict mode", playing games in ScummVM is not quite the OriginalExperience(tm) either).

I like ScummVM for the LucasArts FM Towns versions and for the odd game that was so buggy that it needs to be patched to death anyway (e.g., Bladerunner). It's a cool project, but non-PC engines are sketchy (e.g., the Amiga ones), and at the end of the day, some guys just reverse engineered and reimplemented most of the supported game engines (except in a few cases where the original devs donated the sources). It was a lot more relevant in the early 2000s when the speed advantage of ScummVM mattered (DOSBox could barely run even LucasArts adventures on my Athlon XP, from memory, while ScummVM didn't break a sweat).
 
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Azdul

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What eXoDOS is doing is not preservation.
Watch the first linked video and you'll get it why this project is important. DOS games are not console games where you insert a cartridge or CD and the game just runs. The number of people who have the knowledge to configure DOS games properly is shrinking by year.

Strictly speaking, I agree with you, though. But there is already TDC and TOSEC for that. Still, those projects don't help the average guy who just wants to play the game. Now I have the original files, then what? Most have zero idea.
Knowledge to configure DosBox is not the same as the knowledge to configure PC with DOS. DosBox is a high level emulation.

I agree that there should be publicly available repository of DosBox configurations. DosBox frontends should be able to calculate checksum of original game files - identify the game using TOSEC database - and apply common sense configuration for it. User friendly solutions like MAME, MAME frontends or RetroArch do that for quite complicated platforms.

DosBox configurations provided by eXoDOS won't help here - as downloading 500 GB is not exactly convenient. And inclusion of copyrighted software means that it won't be widely hosted everywhere.

ScummVM is an interesting example because although they use the original data files, technically many ScummVM packs don't even include the EXE files. Ironically, ScummVM then applies a hardcoded set of fixes and patches to the games themselves (although they document that to some degree), plus the engine reimplementation is usually not quite the same (some differences are minor, but technically if we're in "strict mode", playing games in ScummVM is not quite the OriginalExperience(tm) either).
ScummVM provides even higher level emulation for specific game than DosBox - and provides features that are impossible to achieve on any original hardware:
  • Why not have both music and sound effects in a game in which you had to choose between them ?
  • How about correct MIDI instruments on General MIDI hardware - while the game originally only supported Roland MT-32 ?
  • How about providing fixes for ALL the bugs - without modifying original files ?
  • How about combining the best features from different releases - like Monkey Island 1 Ultimate Talkie Edition ?
  • And let's forget about messing with config.sys and autoexec.bat - and loading correct drivers.
DosBox is not the OriginalExperience(tm) either. Ironically - timings in ScummVM are sometimes closer to original hardware than in DosBox. Some purists expect the game to crash the machine in the same scenarios original did - ScummVM will never offer this level of fidelity.
It's a cool project, but non-PC engines are sketchy (e.g., the Amiga ones), and at the end of the day, some guys just reverse engineered and reimplemented most of the supported game engines (except in a few cases where the original devs donated the sources). It was a lot more relevant in the early 2000s when the speed advantage of ScummVM mattered (DOSBox could barely run even LucasArts adventures on my Athlon XP, from memory, while ScummVM didn't break a sweat).
DosBox timings are whacky - and perfectly configured DosBox is sometimes too fast and too slow at the same time (original TIE Fighter, Daggerfall, Wing Commander 3). It is not something that can be fixed using high level emulation.

There are solutions for low level emulation of PC - like MESS or PC-Emu - but they require insane hardware resources to emulate Pentium class machine with VooDoo 2 at full speed. And there are hardware platforms that do not have enough horsepower to emulate 486 through DosBox - like PSP, Vita, 3DS.
 

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Azdul you use what you like, man. I think eXoDOS is an excellent, standout project, hence I'm popularising here. Obviously, as a DOSBox dev, I also think DOSBox is the perfect sweet spot for DOS game emulation. But, nothing is mandatory here :)
 

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So are there any games that require a lot of tweaking from exo to run without their setup?
I have been downloading games + extras individually and just pointing any frontend of my choice to the files and using the config files from the extras and nothing so far has actually failed to run?
 

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So are there any games that require a lot of tweaking from exo to run without their setup?
I have been downloading games + extras individually and just pointing any frontend of my choice to the files and using the config files from the extras and nothing so far has actually failed to run?
Yes, but depends on the game, and the fidelity you want out of your experience. Getting game to run somehow is one thing. Configure it correctly, with the best sound options, etc. is another. Plus some people just want a one click solution.

Why don't you watch his videos if you're curious? He has lots of videos about different topics where he explains all this.
 

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Anyone around here is willing to provide a brief summary (like a bullet point list) of the available options and/or what is peculiar about them?
It's becoming quite a mess.
MAME, ScummMV, DosBox, Exodos....

I don't what I should be looking for anymore....!
 

Nutmeg

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Anyone around here is willing to provide a brief summary (like a bullet point list) of the available options and/or what is peculiar about them?
It's becoming quite a mess.
MAME, ScummMV, DosBox, Exodos....

I don't what I should be looking for anymore....!
Do you know what you want?
 

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Total DOS Collection (TDC) is one collection which attempts to cover Everything DOS-related. While not as user-friendly as eXoDos, it contains a more 'true' experience, including cracks and cheats. The latest release crosses the 500 Gb-mark.

TOSEC is trying to preserve Everything... as in, everything it can get its hands on. Games, books, films, TV shows, etc. And not just the MS-DOS platform, but every platform out there, to such an obscure point that one wonders if those platforms were ever real or not. Some of TOSEC's content is quite esoteric, and some of its collections haven't been updated in years. I honestly don't know how big the complete TOSEC-collection has become, but IIRC it's over a Tb if you add in the PIX-subcollection.

No Intro primarily covers consoles, but also many home computer platforms, including the IBM PC... I think. Currently it only covers three titles. Good to look for if you want something other than MS-DOS.

MAME primarily covers arcade-machines, but has tried its hand at emulating other systems... mostly with little results. A full set of the latest MAME-releases totals over 3 Tb in size, but at least 2/3rds of that can be skipped if you focus on the arcades.

SCUMMVM is trying to build a 'virtal machine' around a few good games and/or companies, instead of providing a huge dump of everything. Ideal for the casuals who just want to get at the biggest hits and such. Last time I checked, it was over 200 Gb in size.

And then there's eXoDOS, which is trying to be a middle-point in all of this, offering a user-friendly interface, as close a 'complete' collection as possible, while keeping itself within its boundaries. It wouldn't surprise me if the upcoming eXoDOS 6 crosses 700 Gb.

(Just don't ask me where to get all of these collections...)
 

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That's a great summary Unkillable Cat .

mastroego Well, you can ask me and I'll tell you where to get them :), but given you needed to ask (and I don't mean this in a condescending way), you are in the "target market" eXODOS is made for. Links in the first post, you can get the lite v5 collection (50 GB) which will give you the option to only download the games you are interested in (it contains all the manuals, covers, extras, metadata, etc., but no actual games). That's the best currently available shortest path to give you access to a 8000+ game DOS library, all preconfigured and tested to give you an optimal experience.

Or you can wait a month or two for the next version, eXoDOS v6, which will be even better. Well or get v5 now, then make sure to upgrade.
 
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Unkillable Cat

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That's a great summary Unkillable Cat . Well, you can ask me and I'll tell you where to get them :), but given you needed to ask (and I don't mean this in a condescending way), you are in the "target market" eXODOS is made for.
Way to read this completely wrong.

I'm not "asking" for myself because I don't have them.

If I didn't have them, I wouldn't be able to give such a summary, would I?
 

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That's a great summary Unkillable Cat . Well, you can ask me and I'll tell you where to get them :), but given you needed to ask (and I don't mean this in a condescending way), you are in the "target market" eXODOS is made for.
Way to read this completely wrong.

I'm not "asking" for myself because I don't have them.

If I didn't have them, I wouldn't be able to give such a summary, would I?
I congratulated you for your nice summary in my first sentence, then I was addressing mastroego. Should've made that clearer, yeah, fixed.
 

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Total DOS Collection (TDC) is one collection which attempts to cover Everything DOS-related. While not as user-friendly as eXoDos, it contains a more 'true' experience, including cracks and cheats. The latest release crosses the 500 Gb-mark.

TOSEC is trying to preserve Everything... as in, everything it can get its hands on. Games, books, films, TV shows, etc. And not just the MS-DOS platform, but every platform out there, to such an obscure point that one wonders if those platforms were ever real or not. Some of TOSEC's content is quite esoteric, and some of its collections haven't been updated in years. I honestly don't know how big the complete TOSEC-collection has become, but IIRC it's over a Tb if you add in the PIX-subcollection.

No Intro primarily covers consoles, but also many home computer platforms, including the IBM PC... I think. Currently it only covers three titles. Good to look for if you want something other than MS-DOS.

MAME primarily covers arcade-machines, but has tried its hand at emulating other systems... mostly with little results. A full set of the latest MAME-releases totals over 3 Tb in size, but at least 2/3rds of that can be skipped if you focus on the arcades.

SCUMMVM is trying to build a 'virtal machine' around a few good games and/or companies, instead of providing a huge dump of everything. Ideal for the casuals who just want to get at the biggest hits and such. Last time I checked, it was over 200 Gb in size.

And then there's eXoDOS, which is trying to be a middle-point in all of this, offering a user-friendly interface, as close a 'complete' collection as possible, while keeping itself within its boundaries. It wouldn't surprise me if the upcoming eXoDOS 6 crosses 700 Gb.

Unkillable Cat gave a very good rundown of what your options are concerning collections.

As far as DOSBox and whatnot, DOSBox is a DOS environment emulator. It works quite well nowadays. Rincewind in this thread is a Dev of a DOSBox fork; DOSBox Staging. I think he is probably the best to present what differences his project has, but you can check them here. The main draw of these forks seem to be to make the emulation better, making unsupported games or features work better or perfectly. There are a bunch of other forks as well, bit staging does seem to be one of the most accepted ones.

Other options include, as Unkillable Cat mentioned, ScummVM. This one has a completely different approach, trying to reimplement the engine of each game they support. This can lead to implementations that are actually very different from the original, although as far as I know most ScummVM games are actually pretty faithful. Furthermore, you can end up with interesting new features, such as the ScummVM version of the Might and Magic game being able to use the mapping system and interface of M&M 4-5. One downside of this approach, of course, is that you only support a limited number of games, since you aren't recreating the DOS environment.

Further on this idea, you also have various engine re-implementations of old games that exist outside of ScummVM (or any other project, for that matter). Well known examples of these include OpenXCom, which enabled a bunch of mods, gzdoom and other Doom engine implementations which many modern wads take for granted, Exult which is a modern implementation of the Ultima 7 engine and Daggerfall Unity. The trend here is that these implementations, being open source and hopefully well documented tend to open up a whole new world of modding to the old games.

Another possibility, though it seems to be very little recommended, is using a virtual machine like Oracle VM to run the dos environment. Although this is not exactly emulation, you will need to work with emulation to get any kind of results, since old dos games depend on direct memory access to interface with devices that no longer are compatible with modern computers such as sound cards. So, for instance, a VM will emulate all the sound card stuff in order to get sound out of the game, otherwise it would be mute or not work at all. Graphics are likewise incompatible with modern systems and windows and need a layer between them and the real hardware. So, since you end up emulating stuff anyway, I suppose DOSBox is the better option.

Yet another option as to running these games is using original hardware. This option, of course, has the capacity to be the most faithful of them all. But you will need a bit of money to get the old computer parts (maybe a lot of money, depending on what you want) and time in order to build the rigs yourself. If you intend to play games from various years, you may need more than one computer to do a decent job of running them, so even space may end up being a factor.

Another interesting option is something like MiSTer, which is a computer that emulates other computers and consoles, but at the hardware level. I don't understand the tech behind it all that well, but what I got from it is that it tries to set different circuits to emulate the circuit specifications of what these computers used. It seems like a really cool idea, but MiSTer itself doesn't have a very good DOS support, and getting it to support older computers is a whole lot of work as you need very detailed specifications for each electronic component of these machines.

There might be other options to running dos games, but I don't know about them. If anyone wants to add to this list, or correct anything wrong I've said, please go ahead!

Another aspect of this all, also bundled in eXoDOS, is the frontend. That is, a quick way of bundling configuration files and maybe game information in an easy to use interface. If you want, you can set up DOSBox in a way that you would your old DOS game collection. Put them in different folders and cd to the one you want to use every time you start the emulator. But some people have done a good job of making visual interfaces that start the game directly. I used to like DBGL because you could set various alternative .exe for each game (so you could run the config program, or some other thing, like the item maker in Master of Magic) and you could put your pdf files for easy consultation of manuals and whatnot.

Older versions of eXoDOS used their own frontend, which maybe wasn't as neat but came pre-made for you, so you wouldn't waste time setting up the entries yourself. It seems the next version is going to use launchbox instead, which seems like a very good system, but I don't have much experience with it. There are also a whole lot other options of frontend, so you can check those out if you want.

(Just don't ask me where to get all of these collections...)

I still miss Pleasure Dome.

Rincewind

Do you know if the eXoDOS guy(s) considered doing something like a virtual file system to deal with patches and whatnot? I've been using something called Mod Organizer to play Morrowind with a ton of mods; and a really nice aspect of it is that each mod is installed in its own unique folder. Once you start the game, the manager calculates which files each mod is supposed to provide (so, if a mod is supposed to overwrite another, the file of the original is still there, but the new one loaded instead) and puts it all in a virtual folder, as if they were all in the mod folder of Morrowind. I imagine something like that could be used so you could have the original version of a game while also allowing (if so the player wants) the use of a patch or a crack.
 

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The eXoDOS alpha dog muted me on his discord last year because I dared to mouth off and not prostate myself before his Altar of Autism but then he unmuted me after, like, 20 minutes and even commended me for not continuing to bust his balls after I was unmuted and we were cool after that. However, I haven't returned to the discord since. I probably will after eXoDOS v6.0 is released and I have to troubleshoot. For all their crankiness (especially him... don't dare ask about mouse input lag in any MS-DOS game because he takes it as an insult to all of eXoDOS-dom), the eXoDOS crew are good folk doing good works.
 

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Frankly, I can understand eXo. He might seem a bit touchy, but he's been doing this for 15 years. Try to be a leader of any moderately successful open-source project, or even simpler, get a job that involve customer support, and you'll quickly develop an intolerance for unreasonable requests, people who feel entitled to get all their pet features implemented as a *matter of priority* (it's super important for them, after all; aren't you listening, or what?!) and 100% of your attention *right now* or else, and so on and so on... It just saps your energy and motivation, man. In a way, he vents his accumulated frustration when he has a bad day.

But he could be more patient, sure... but easier said than done, speaking from personal experience. I've also come dangerously close to hitting the ban button occasionally when some people just can't let go, but haven't banned anybody so far from our Discord. I don't want people to hold long-term grudges and shit like that. Who needs that shit.

At the end of the day, no other project with the same scope as eXoDOS exists. I could list my improvement ideas all day, sure, we all could, but few of us would have the dedication and perseverance to keep going at it, major release after major release, for *15 years straight*. He has been doing exactly that, and thanks to his and his team's efforts, we'll soon have eXoDOS v6.

And yeah, most of the guys from his team are much more chill. They're great people, I hang out with them almost every day.
 

Rincewind

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Do you know if the eXoDOS guy(s) considered doing something like a virtual file system to deal with patches and whatnot?
Yep, we do have overlay filesystem support. It was introduced a while ago in 2020.
https://dosbox-staging.github.io/downloads/release-notes/0.75.0/?h=overlay#mount-overlay-support

But eXo has just started his journey of migrating things to Staging. Maybe the guys will use the feature more (or at all) in the future.

Btw, eXo currently uses the practically dead (in terms of ongoing development) Daum build for a couple of games; we will look into what it takes to make these games run just as well in Staging, then they can make the switch. One guy from our team just created tickets for all those games, here's the full list:

https://github.com/dosbox-staging/dosbox-staging/issues/2945

Hey, if you guys wanna help with testing with all those games, we can use some help :) I expect a large number of these games to just work in Staging, but we don't know until we test. Most likely he still uses some ancient build from 5+ years ago or something.
 

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https://github.com/dosbox-staging/dosbox-staging/issues/2448

I had to go look up the latest ECE version and saw this... Pixel-perfect is the only thing that matters to me for the 320x adventures.. not all this shader nonsense or these insane justifications. I am also really curious why Staging is banned from VOGONS?
Yeah, use the "sharp" shader with `integer_scaling = vertical`, that will continue be available forever. But I invite you to try the new authentic CRT experience. I too dislike shaders that look like caricatures of the real thing, 100%.

Staging is not "banned" on Vogons, far from it. One of the original founders is—that's a difference. I'm not interested in propagating the drama, it was before my time. You can do your research if you're into that. I just say this much: that was mostly between the Vogons staff (admins) and the guy who started the Staging project out of frustration that DOSBox was for all intents and purposes dead for over 10 years (he has moved on since to other stuff).

The two original DOSBox devs (Qbix and Harekiet) and the Staging team are on friendly terms and have been conversing on IRC since then. We get friendly messages from them from time to time, but they too moved on to other things, other life interests, etc. Harekiet fully endorses and likes Staging, he said that many times to us.

In fact, I just made it clear yesterday on Vogons that the current Staging crew are in absolutely no "conflict" with neither Vogons, nor the original devs; on the contrary, we are thankful to the original devs and I personally enjoy Vogons a lot. You can read it here:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=1194240#p1194240

Also noteworthy that one of the admins replied in a PM to that linked post in a friendly tone. But I'll stop here. We're not drama-loving people, trust me :)

In other news, the ECE guy has just officially called it quits:
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=1192987#p1192987
 
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Rincewind

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Also, that "Kill "pixel-perfect" mode with fire" ticket was made in good fun. You won't believe how many people were confused by it that it approximates the correct aspect ratio but it actually rarely gets it perfect. Frankly, it even confused us devs from time to time during testing... We didn't "hate" that feature, it was just a source for massive confusion, and there is enough confusion about correct aspect ratios already. In the end, we replaced it with something that we consider far better. And there are plenty "pixel purists" in the dev team, trust me.
 

Alex

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Also, that "Kill "pixel-perfect" mode with fire" ticket was made in good fun. You won't believe how many people were confused by it that it approximates the correct aspect ratio but it actually rarely gets it perfect. Frankly, it even confused us devs from time to time during testing... We didn't "hate" that feature, it was just a source for massive confusion, and there is enough confusion about correct aspect ratios already. In the end, we replaced it with something that we consider far better. And there are plenty "pixel purists" in the dev team, trust me.

It still seems silly to remove the feature rather than just re-name it and leave to the user whether to use it or not.
 

Rincewind

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Also, that "Kill "pixel-perfect" mode with fire" ticket was made in good fun. You won't believe how many people were confused by it that it approximates the correct aspect ratio but it actually rarely gets it perfect. Frankly, it even confused us devs from time to time during testing... We didn't "hate" that feature, it was just a source for massive confusion, and there is enough confusion about correct aspect ratios already. In the end, we replaced it with something that we consider far better. And there are plenty "pixel purists" in the dev team, trust me.

It still seems silly to remove the feature rather than just re-name it and leave to the user whether to use it or not.
It was a case for endless problems, and the name was bad. "Pixel-perfect" was in fact "aspect-ratio imperfect" most of the time...

If someone *must* use the "pixel-perfect" thing, they can simply use the GLSL implementation:
https://github.com/tyrells/dosbox-svn-shaders/blob/master/interpolation/pixel_perfect.glsl
 

Alex

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Also, that "Kill "pixel-perfect" mode with fire" ticket was made in good fun. You won't believe how many people were confused by it that it approximates the correct aspect ratio but it actually rarely gets it perfect. Frankly, it even confused us devs from time to time during testing... We didn't "hate" that feature, it was just a source for massive confusion, and there is enough confusion about correct aspect ratios already. In the end, we replaced it with something that we consider far better. And there are plenty "pixel purists" in the dev team, trust me.

It still seems silly to remove the feature rather than just re-name it and leave to the user whether to use it or not.
It was a case for endless problems, and the name was bad. "Pixel-perfect" was in fact "aspect-ratio imperfect" most of the time...

If someone *must* use the "pixel-perfect" thing, they can simply use the GLSL implementation:
https://github.com/tyrells/dosbox-svn-shaders/blob/master/interpolation/pixel_perfect.glsl

But that is the thing, this is exactly what I would like to see without shaders to have a basis for comparing their effects.
 

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