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Fallout Fallout 1 is the best RPG of all time that stood the test of time

Swampy_Merkin

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We're talking about Cormac McCarthy (FO:3) vs Stephen King (F:NV).

I'll take McCarthy every fucking time.
 

FeelTheRads

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Think you have those 2 mixed up.

The stupidity of Fallout 3's plot is exactly Stephen King.

Of course, I assume you read about McCarthy and King on a wiki so I guess you can't really tell what you're talking about.
 

Swampy_Merkin

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There has literally never been a good main story in anything remotely resembling an open-world rpg. You can cite Fallout, New Vegas, Masquerade, your own assburgers.....none of these things are linear story-driven rpgs. The stories you like the most are the side-quests and larping bullshit you think you remember.
 

Sykar

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So you had more fun looking for that middle aged guy than going after the guy who almost killed you and joining one of the 5 potential factions for a variety of outcomes in the end. That in a world that even upon a cursory glance has batshit retarded world building, nonsensical plot device in the water purifier and utterly moronic "moral" choices like blowing up Megaton for the "lulz me so evulz!".

I had more of an engaging, engrossing time in the world where I didn't give a rat's ass about the plot, but nonetheless found poignant story moments being shown rather than told around almost every corner.

New Vegas had what?....some fonzie guy and Wayne Newton and some endless fucking desert?

possibly_retarded.png

I understand now why you have that tag.
 

ilitarist

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So you had more fun looking for that middle aged guy than going after the guy who almost killed you and joining one of the 5 potential factions for a variety of outcomes in the end. That in a world that even upon a cursory glance has batshit retarded world building, nonsensical plot device in the water purifier and utterly moronic "moral" choices like blowing up Megaton for the "lulz me so evulz!".

Say what you want, but the premise itself in Fallout 3 is more solid for an RPG. Once you're out of vault it can be easily explained why you follow your father (he's your father and the only one you know in the Wasteland) or don't follow him (he left you and put you in danger) allowing for a variety of characters. You may not like later choices, but those are just that - choices, you're allowed to play as completely retarded murderer. Fallout 1 & 2 allows you to play as literally retarded and people treat this as an example of game expansiveness even though it makes sense in-universe cause your character is chosen by people to save them, why would they chose someone retarded?

FNV premise might be more intriguing but it does not allow for variety of characters. Every character you may think of should have "also is a mad bastard who follows the mafia boss through the wasteland after being almost murdered by him and suddenly becoming a supersoldier while working as just a courier for years, also visited Divide some years back and didn't notice the delivery has destroyed it" in his description. And it's not like FNV does not allow for doing dumb stuff for the evilz: it's just the game doesn't notice when you do. So I can't understand that Megaton example, really.
 

ilitarist

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Laugh all you want but there's a contradiction in saying that FNV provides better roleplaying knowledge as it requires metaknowledge. The game doesn't tell you to create a character that wants revenge or wants those 500 caps so badly he's going to go through hell to finish the job. You're supposed to be able to create anyone you want, and character creation is expanded allowing for older or more peaceful characters compared to Fallout 3. If you're fine with FNV assuming your character is going to get with things that do not concern him at all I don't see how you can have problem with F3 premise of looking for your father or getting involved with destroying cities. Your problem is with something else and you don't want to properly formulate it.
 

Trashos

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FNV premise might be more intriguing but it does not allow for variety of characters. Every character you may think of should have "also is a mad bastard who follows the mafia boss through the wasteland after being almost murdered by him and suddenly becoming a supersoldier while working as just a courier for years, also visited Divide some years back and didn't notice the delivery has destroyed it" in his description. And it's not like FNV does not allow for doing dumb stuff for the evilz: it's just the game doesn't notice when you do. So I can't understand that Megaton example, really.

"Just a Courier"? Maybe being a courier is not epic enough some people here, but couriers are some of the biggest badasses in those times. Notable couriers: Ulysses and Caesar's double agents.
 

ilitarist

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When Benny captures the Courier he has no equipment of any sorts, same as dead couriers you find along the way. He's unknown to anyone anywhere apart from Ulysses. Some characters in the game underline this path from nobody to badass. Caesar talks about it when you first meet him. It'd make sense in a more character-focused game like Witcher but even in those games you're put in a circumstances that lead to you becoming a hero.

Courier is put in circumstances where any sane person would go home or at least stay in Goodsprings. You don't do it becasue game does not allow so, it's extremely gamey and doesn't feel like an premise for a traiditonal RPG like New Vegas. Mind you, it would work better if the game would have world a la Bethesda world: this way you'd have a theoretical choices between settling down and doing odd jobs and not doing main quest.

Fallout 4 premise (looking for a kidnapped child plus avenging murder of your spouse) would work better in a traditional RPG. It's somewhat similar to Baldur's Gate 2 motivation: when people ask you what do you want you can either say you want to rescue your friend or that you want to punish the evil wizard. But in case of Fallout 4 the game itself gives you an option of settling down and not progressing with main story till you feel like it. It feels wrong. So I consider both Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4 premise to be ineffective, they would work better in other kinds of games.
 

Master

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NV would've made more sense if the Courier had amnesia. Sure it's a clishe but he was shot in the head so it wouldn't be that far fetched.
 

Lhynn

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So theres an assylum in town and the inmates escaped, murdered everyone and took over, trying to live the lives of the people they murdered.
Thats the feeling Fo3 gives, like everyone is insane and you arent in on the joke. Its not just the main quest thats nonsensical, its the entire game. Neither the locations nor the NPCs make any sense, and the world gets more retarded the further you go.

Theres one other bloke on the entire town that doesnt seem to be in on the joke either, that Autum guy. It seems he is the new officer that got transfered from another base, and isnt aware everyone is insane, he is just endlessly frustrated because of their incompetence and its really sad because it mirrors any player characters with half a brain cell.

As such fallout 3 pulls the "disturbing" atmosphere well, nothing is quite right, and your brain knows it.

To stupid people this feels amazing, "i feel so immersed!!". To people that think its just frustrating because you cant help but question everything in this fake looking world.
 

ilitarist

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Yeah, maybe amnesia would make more sense. In that case he would have nothing to do apart from following Benny.

To stupid people this feels amazing, "i feel so immersed!!". To people that think its just frustrating because you cant help but question everything in this fake looking world.

Until you have a perfect AI and choice and consequence system that approach of an obviously fake world is much more immersive than anything serious. Even if we imagine New Vegas with its developed factions, histories and relations doesn't have looney stuff like Fisto, space travelling ghouls, Elvis impersonator as one of the most important people in the world etc - you still have comically sized world, average person being able to survive a dozen headshots, magical development of speech skill after killing some lizards and so on and so on. A circus performance like Fallout 3 is more or less internally consistent; FNV is better written and tries to put up an illusion of a more complex world - but it's smashed to pieces as soon as you meet a badly written character, accidentally steal a spoon and get hunted down by the whole city, see NPCs do not react to things they should react to and so on and so on.

Fallout had this absurdist setting from the very beginning anyway. Perhaps it was one of the things that helped the franchise to rise: all the conventions and gamey things do not bother you as much when storry alternates between horror and farce, be it in a subtle way as in Fallout 1 or in dumb way as in Fallout 2 & 3.
 

FeelTheRads

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If that actually had any impact on the "roleplaying", what is the fucking difference between pretending you don't care about your father and pretending you don't care about who wanted to kill you in NV?
How exactly is every NV character automatically someone who "wants revenge or wants those 500 caps so badly he's going to go through hell to finish the job" but the FO3 one is not someone who will go through anything to get to his father?

The "lol he left me who carez" is you making it up and shows the kind of teenager level of rationalization a Bethesdard is capable of doing.

In short:
illiterate.gif

village_idiot.gif


And I'd add:
possibly_retarded.png
 

ilitarist

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Mentioning "teenager level of rationalization" and instantly referencing tags shows incredible ability for doublethink for the sake of not having to deal with inconsistency and inherent contradiction.

In case you don't understand what I've already wrote, I'll repeat it in short sentences.
Not caring about a father who left you to die is a reaction anyone could have. Still caring is natural too. Running away from a powerful person who tried to kill you is natural. Following him is something that only a certain person would do.
Fallout 3 has open world, you can play without following main quest. Fallout New Vegas is all about the main quest. Almost every quest in FNV is tied to main quest. You can't enter half of settlements without being reminded of main quest. You can't explore the world because there's nothing to explore and beef gates suggest you follow the main quest.
FNV requires you to be a vengeful madman or turn off the game. F3 allows you to explore open world. You can imagine yourself or any character you can imagine in shoes of F3 hero and act accordingly. In FNV you have to follow plot because it's a game and you just have to follow quests.
 

Alkarl

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You can't enter half of settlements without being reminded of main quest.

This is actually good game design, and better writing than Fallout 3 was capable of. In F3, the entirety of the D.C. wastes is without a clean source of water, but you can go to just about any settlement and not be bothered about it, not to mention those settlements shouldn't exist in the first place.

The importance of Hoover Dam in FNV cannot be understated. If the NCR looses it, they are pretty much packing up and going home. If they keep it, their influence continues to expand, as would Caesar's, should he gain control of it.

The fact that Obsidian was able to make politics more important than water, a basic necessity for life, should have made Todd Howard shit himself in shame.

You can't explore the world because there's nothing to explore and beef gates suggest you follow the main quest.

This has been debunked so many times. Sure, you're always going to be interacting with the main plot elements no matter where you go, but as I said above, this is a good thing. It means someone sat down and figured out how all this shit connects. NV also does a better job of making sure the things you find and places you explore are worth finding and exploring. It makes your basic interactions feel worthwhile without giving away the intention.

Not caring about a father who left you to die is a reaction anyone could have. Still caring is natural too. Running away from a powerful person who tried to kill you is natural.

This is such a dumb statement. Being able to fuck off in a game should not be a hallmark of good design. Besides, at the beginning of NV you don't even know who Benny is. He could be some rando waster or raider, of which you'll murder plenty regardless of whether you follow the main plot or not. By the time you start to figure out just exactly who he is, you're already on his door step and have likely been extended an invitation and alliance from House, a real serious piece of work with actual power. At this point, killing Benny is as easy as winking at him.

But no, you're right, F3 let's you blow up Megaton, capture slaves, play house with Moira, and any number of other brain-dead, lobotomite, low-effort inclusions of gameplay that will inevitably lead to you shooting something or someone in the head. But you can pretend you're a well-meaning, mild-mannered stooge just living the life in D.C. not drinking any water or involving yourself in any plots. :retarded:
 

FeelTheRads

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Ah, OK, so what you're actually trying to say but you're either too dumb or to ashamed to admit it, is that there's no point in playing FO3 other than to walk around (extremely slowly, of course, to pad out the Steam time counter so you can say you played the latest Bethesda abortion for 1000 hours) and kill things.
 

ilitarist

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This is such a dumb statement. Being able to fuck off in a game should not be a hallmark of good design.

All of you said up to and including this has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. It's similar to defending Megaton quest because explosion looks good and generates a nice wind reaction when you trigger it. You don't have to protect FNV from evil people who claim to enjoy Fallout 3 and infesting a spacesafe were you can compete in shitting on popular games. FNV is a superior game and has a better world, it is clear.

The point is it still has problems, including ones that F3 and many others hadn't. Being able to fuck off is not a hallmark of good design, it's a thing that FNV begs for. It attempts to build believable world but it's full of things that crumble and destroy any immersion or believably if you think of them on very basic level. In Fallout 3 you meet people who survive in a middle of nowhere and care about collecting bottles - yeah, you can no longer perceive it as a realistic simulation of anything. FNV still does it with things like basic self-identification. It's clear from a very beginning that Benny is an influential guy and you're over your head. The game has no explanation why I'd want to follow him except that it's a game about Vegas and I can't go directly to Vegas because everyone tells the only safe way is to follow main quest. F3 story wouldn't suffer much from forcing you to follow main quest, the world is already silly Disneyland, so you have some drama while the Genie makes pop-culture references around you. In FNV Genie is more tame (while still having a load of dumb stuff) and the world pretends it's sane, only the very basics of the story are rotten.

Obsidian seem to realize it. In PoE1 they've created a clear reason why you should follow the plot even if you don't care at all, namely an illness. Might be cheap, but it solves the problem: unless your character is suicidal he'll follow the plot. In PoE2 they have a plot very reminiscent of FNV: you seek revenge and get involved in regional politics. And they did the right thing: in the very beginning your character can saw screw you all and cop out of that story. You get a real choice right before you create your character, and now you know that you create someone who chose to get involved with the story. Is it clearer now?
 

Kyl Von Kull

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This is such a dumb statement. Being able to fuck off in a game should not be a hallmark of good design.

All of you said up to and including this has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. It's similar to defending Megaton quest because explosion looks good and generates a nice wind reaction when you trigger it. You don't have to protect FNV from evil people who claim to enjoy Fallout 3 and infesting a spacesafe were you can compete in shitting on popular games. FNV is a superior game and has a better world, it is clear.

The point is it still has problems, including ones that F3 and many others hadn't. Being able to fuck off is not a hallmark of good design, it's a thing that FNV begs for. It attempts to build believable world but it's full of things that crumble and destroy any immersion or believably if you think of them on very basic level. In Fallout 3 you meet people who survive in a middle of nowhere and care about collecting bottles - yeah, you can no longer perceive it as a realistic simulation of anything. FNV still does it with things like basic self-identification. It's clear from a very beginning that Benny is an influential guy and you're over your head. The game has no explanation why I'd want to follow him except that it's a game about Vegas and I can't go directly to Vegas because everyone tells the only safe way is to follow main quest. F3 story wouldn't suffer much from forcing you to follow main quest, the world is already silly Disneyland, so you have some drama while the Genie makes pop-culture references around you. In FNV Genie is more tame (while still having a load of dumb stuff) and the world pretends it's sane, only the very basics of the story are rotten.

But this is a false premise. There is nothing forcing you to follow the main quest in New Vegas. You can wander around wherever you want to. It’s not impossible to go north from Goodsprings, you just need to be very careful to avoid the deathclaws and similar murderous beasties. When you get to Vegas, you don’t have to confront Benny either. Sure, the Legion camp won’t open up until you get the platinum chip and visit House, but so what? Other than that the map is totally open.

Fallout 3 gates plenty of content, too. For all that people talk about its totally open world, the more densely packed areas are actually split into separate sections and cannot be accessed except through the subway tunnels. You can’t just wander into the radio station, for example. You will always run into the Brotherhood when emerging from the subway there, you will always encounter a bunch of super mutants, etc...

The fact that taking the easy and obvioud route in New Vegas introduces you to all the factions in a logical way and periodically gives you hints about where Benny was going is a good thing (hey, it’s also just like 1 & 2). You seem to be arguing that everything in an open world RPG should be disconnected. To me, this defeats the purpose of building a game world in the first place.

I will gladly concede that 3 and 4 make better hiking simulators. That’s the one thing Bethesda is very good at. But if I want to stare at cool landscapes, I’ll go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art or stroll through Central Park or visit my family in the suburbs. Wandering around looking at stuff should NOT be the main draw of a video game as games are meant to be played, not watched. This is one reason I find every Bethesda game deeply unfulfilling.

The other issue, as I mentioned before, is that the originals and New Vegas are great because they focus on post apocalyptic society. 3 guts that element. The smaller settlements are totally disconnected, except that you have a handful of people who’ll put Rivet City, Tenpenny Tower, Arefu and Canterbury Commons on your map. But go to these places and it’s like each one is self contained and practically hermetically sealed. This wouldn’t be so bad except that, other than Megaton and Rivet City, there are no sizable towns. IMO, this defeats the purpose of making an open world RPG. Even Skyrim has eight sizable cities. But in Fallout 3, most populated places of interest have 3-5 people and one quest.

Think about that: Bethesda created this world where you can walk around and stuff looks cool, but there is nowhere to go unless you want to kill raiders or kill wildlife. I expected 3 to be Oblivion with Guns, but Oblivion actually has a lot more going on in terms of towns.

Arefu was the first town I found after Megaton. I was dismayed: there were a few houses on a bridge and one quest with the cannibal kid. Then I went to vampire town to finish the quest and was equally letdown. So then I go to Canterbury Commons, which I’ve been told is this big caravan hub. Nope, it’s like four guys sitting in a diner. What the fuck? So I go to Tenpenny Tower and while there are more NPCs, finally, the only real quest is to let the ghouls in or kill them. In the entire game, only Megaton and Rivet City felt truly inhabited. Only they had multiple, sometimes interconnecting quests.

I’ve heard people say it’s a wasteland, of course it should be only sparsely populated, yet there are raiders around every damn corner and three large occupying military forces: the mutants, the Brotherhood and the Enclave. Every time someone talked about helping or controlling the people of the Wasteland, I found myself wondering, what fucking people?

It left me dumbfounded. Where the fuck is the content, I asked myself. Then I realized, the content is mostly just the landscape and killin’ stuff. But man, if your game is going to be mostly combat, you should really design a good combat system.
 

ilitarist

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But this is a false premise. There is nothing forcing you to follow the main quest in New Vegas. You can wander around wherever you want to. It’s not impossible to go north from Goodsprings, you just need to be very careful to avoid the deathclaws and similar murderous beasties. When you get to Vegas, you don’t have to confront Benny either. Sure, the Legion camp won’t open up until you get the platinum chip and visit House, but so what? Other than that the map is totally open.

Did you try playing like that? Would you ever consider playing FNV without following the main story? Yes, you're not forced into following the main quest itself, but the game is structured around it. You describe Fallout 3 world as lacking. It doesn't focus on societies. True. It's more similar to a game like Diablo and such. What happens if you decide not to follow quests in Diablo? You can still walk around doing stuff, getting stronger. Cut the main quest out of Fallout 3 world and the game doesn't become much worse. But FNV is the main quest. Most of its content is directly related to the main quest, remove it and you'd have settlements that make more real-life sense than Fallout 3 but are left as empty. Everything in FNV is connected to the main quest. It's not the world you'd explore for the sake of exploration or enrichment.

Think about that: Bethesda created this world where you can walk around and stuff looks cool, but there is nowhere to go unless you want to kill raiders or kill wildlife.

It has dungeon crawler game loop. Plus on top of it there's exploration. Every dungeon has some sort of story or quest associated with it, and most of its quests you don't get from quest hubs, they're spread all over the place. FNV has more traditional system of quest hubs, there are only few places you visit on your own initiative. Most you visit on your way to revenge or, later, political domination. If you play Fallout 3 the same way as FNV you'd see inferior story and that's about it. But even then you'll have a possibility of doing your own things, and that's important too: you do have a choice. Trying to explore FNV world would give you encounter with Legion hit squad if you're lucky and that's about it.

And I think many people who like FNV and despise F3 so much - which is a very interesting position with two games being as similar as any two games can be - just hate gameplay. F3/4/any Bethesda game treats its challenges as a reward. If you don't like clearing dungeons and exploring (as you seem to) then all you find in Fallout 3 is fewer number of quest hubs with fewer ways to interact with the game as if it's a Choose Your Own Adventure game. You won't see most of quests, places and stories. In FNV you can follow your journal and will see almost all the world be the end of the game unless you go with Yesman and deliberately ignore as much of the world as possible. FNV is a good CYOA game with a little action on the top, and due to broken balance you don't even have to care about combat that much, just click those skillcheck options in dialogues.

And in CYOA book you don't ask why your character is interested, you enjoy the story and particular rails you chose.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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You describe Fallout 3 world as lacking. It doesn't focus on societies. True. It's more similar to a game like Diablo and such.

This is a huge fucking indictment of Fallout 3. Bethesda turned Fallout into a dungeon crawl? Good job, guys.

Saying 3 and New Vegas are as similar as it gets is like saying Fallout and Lionheart are as similar as it gets because they're both isometric and use the SPECIAL system.

And it's not about hating gameplay. It's about hating monotony. A good RPG is like a balanced meal: you need some killing stuff, and some talking and questing. When you remove or dilute one of those elements, you have a disappointing RPG. Like toast with no butter or jelly.

You're describing 3 and New Vegas as though the originals never existed. Yes, having lots of DIFFERENT ways to interact with the world via the skill system is a good thing. That doesn't mean skills are broken or overpowered; they're how the game is supposed to work. How many ways can I interact with Fallout 3? I'm pretty sure if you told Bethesda their game was just a dungeon crawl, they would be kind of appalled.
 
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ilitarist

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I'm not talking about originals because they're much more different. E.g. they give a greater sense of scale and just don't have a lot of problems 3d Fallouts have. And they had a lot of problems both F3 and FNV do not have but it wasn't a big deal back then.

I'm finding talking about how Fallout 3 is a bad game in general and bad Fallout game monotonous. It's obvious. There's no need to create threads about it ten years after release, it's not a therapy session. Yet I see that most people are content with looking for a best way to write an essay about how shitty it is and it's boring. I want to discuss something else about those games and it's regarded as a thought crime. Also I think that Bethesda devs think of their games as world simulators or something, systemic games with a lot of story content. They saw it doesn't really work that well with Daggerfall and made Morrowind which has less of combat, smaller dungeons and more attention to detail. It stroke a good balance between what different people want. I think they regarded that game as basis for future games where you'll have better AI NPC interactions and bigger dungeons.

As for skills - I think FNV didn't go far enough. There's far less combat in the game but most of gameplay improvements are about combat. Like most of crafting, weapon mods, most perks. The story and general direction assumes that most of RPG systems would interact with non-combat things.
 

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