Fallout 4 Pre-Announcement Bullshit Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[karfhud]

Too bad he wasn't able to cast his "Midas' touch" upon a more firm base to create - possibly - an all around enjoyable Fallout RPG.

That's precisely what New Vegas was.

 

[undecaf]

Too bad he wasn't able to cast his "Midas' touch" upon a more firm base to create - possibly - an all around enjoyable Fallout RPG.

That's precisely what New Vegas was.

Nah, not really. It was bandaiding and sugar coating Bethesda's shit. I tip my hat for the effort in an honest gesture and give credit for all the good ideas and shit, but there was only so much that could be done with it.

 

[Infinitron]

undecaf shihonage etc

I have a question for the people who consider New Vegas to be a poor game because it's "bandaiding Bethesda's shit". I mean, that seems like a very strange remark to make.

Does that mean that you're acknowledging that, theoretically, there could be a NON-Bethesda first person action-RPG Fallout that was a good Fallout game?

If not, why not just say "too bad he couldn't make an isometric Fallout"? Why even mention Bethesda?

 

[shihonage]

undecaf shihonage etc

I have a question for the people who consider New Vegas to be a poor game because it's "bandaiding Bethesda's shit". I mean, that seems like a very strange remark to make.

One that I partially, but not wholly, agree with.

Does that mean that you're acknowledging that, theoretically, there could be a NON-Bethesda first person action-RPG Fallout that was a good Fallout game?

It is possible to make a first-person Fallout that is better than the Bethesda/Obsidian offerings. Start by making graphics non-monochrome, locations distinctive and interesting, dialogue compact and clean, interface that isn't a usability nightmare, combat that isn't the worst first-person combat ever created... then we'll discuss the rest.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and definitely go back and root out the idea of taking easter eggs or rare encounters from Fallout and making them into "official lore". Get rid of the wacky shit overload and sci-fi theme park syndrome. That's a must. Fallout isn't to be treated like a fertile ground for every shitty gag you wanted to put into that sci-fi book you never got published.

 

[Infinitron]

Is there any existing first person shooter that you believe could serve as a good model for a good first person Fallout?

STALKER, perhaps? I'm kinda curious about what the "old guard" thinks about this topic.

EDIT: And don't try to change the subject to why you think Fallout 2 sucks too!

 

[Turisas]

Is there any existing first person shooter that you believe could serve as a good model for a good first person Fallout?

Soldier of Fortune. I want to see intestines spill out when I shoot my shotgun into someone's gut, and half the skull get blown away when I unload my Deagle on someone's head.

 

[shihonage]

Is there any existing first person shooter that you believe could serve as a good model for a good first person Fallout?

STALKER, perhaps? I'm kinda curious about what the "old guard" thinks about this topic.

EDIT: And don't try to change the subject to why you think Fallout 2 sucks too!

Perhaps the difficulty is that there's no clear model. It would require experimentation and innovation. Stalker had bad UI, I couldn't get into that game. System Shock 2 would need to be heavily retooled to have Fallout stats/skills, dialogue engine, and yet its combat-with-stats would still suck.

Which is why Fallout should remain in isometric perspective - there are only advantages there. Dungeon master text screen, environment descriptions, strategic combat overview, easy abstraction of settlements, turn-based or phase-based combat instead of V.A.T.S...

The only advantage of first-person is in appeal to NU-GEN cromagnons who can't take a game seriously unless the cave is portrayed in the same glorious realism their ancestors experienced thousands of years ago.

 

[undecaf]

The "bandaiding shit" is hyperbole (though I do think it fitting considering the basis on top of which NV was built). Of course there is a theoretical possibility for a good game in FPP. Plenty of different design possibilities to explore; not an optimal case, mind you, and I would diminish the emphasis on the word "action" in front of "RPG" quite heavyhandedly when it comes to gameplay, but I do think it is doable (likely not as a mainstream blockbuster, but that's - massappeal - not something I'd look for anyway).

And as for the FPS model... I think going more towards that kind of experience is the complete opposite direction of where the series should, go first person perspective or not.

 

[karfhud]

Which is why Fallout should remain in isometric perspective - there are only advantages there. Dungeon master text screen, environment descriptions, strategic combat overview, easy abstraction of settlements, turn-based or phase-based combat instead of V.A.T.S...

Have to agree on the isometric combat; I didn't mind how VATS worked in NV - it didn't break the experience for me - but a proper isometric view with turn-based combat would be awesome. It can be integrated into FPP, though - in combat, camera could unhook and fly over to an isometric view. It would require a lot of engine work, though.

As for the rest... I felt really immersed while playing NV. Visuals weren't breathtaking, but with Mark Morgan's score in the background they did their job. I felt I'm playing a proper Fallout game. I can see why people miss the text window, after all it's where some of the best writing could be found, but for me a proper execution of a first-person view beats even the best-written descriptions in the text window.

 

[Xeon]

Opinions after modding or based on vanilla?

UI in Fallout 3 and New Vegas can mostly be fixed with Darnified UI + Gopher's 3 Hud mods (Adjustable - Immersive - Unified).

Edit:
Gameplay can be changed in F3 with FWE + MMM + WMK and other mods. FNV with JSawyer mod and customized with Project Nevada mod. Content in FNV is really solid.

You could change texture and use lighting, weather mods to change how the game and NPCs will look.

 

[DalekFlay]

Which is why Fallout should remain in isometric perspective - there are only advantages there.

I love isometric, but come on now... first-person has plenty of advantages as well. IMMERSHUN being the obvious one, but also finding items in the environment is a lot more interesting, sniping is more fun, and larger areas/taller buildings have a much greater sense of scale. I'm sure I could list more. You have struggled in the past to see Fallout as anything outside of exactly what the first game was, which makes it hard to create a sequel you'd find palatable.

 

[shihonage]

Which is why Fallout should remain in isometric perspective - there are only advantages there.

I love isometric, but come on now... first-person has plenty of advantages as well. IMMERSHUN being the obvious one, but also finding items in the environment is a lot more interesting, sniping is more fun, and larger areas/taller buildings have a much greater sense of scale. I'm sure I could list more.

You're just strengthening my point about cromagnons.

You have struggled in the past to see Fallout as anything outside of exactly what the first game was, which makes it hard to create a sequel you'd find palatable.

First part of that sentence is a strawman, second part is a lie.

 

[tuluse]

first-person has plenty of advantages as well.

Well sure they're two totally different things, good for different purposes.

IMMERSHUN being the obvious one

Not off to a good start. This is a terrible reason, it ignores that sympathetic immersion exists.

also finding items in the environment is a lot more interesting

I suppose, but I don't know if finding items is something I want as a core gameplay mechanic in a Fallout game.

sniping is more fun

I found sniper often pretty frustrating in New Vegas with gamebryo's hilariously low radius that creatures could spawn in.

larger areas/taller buildings have a much greater sense of scale

I'm not sure I would agree with this. In isometric you can split up areas into different maps which is a big hint to the human mind that's being abstracted and makes places feel much larger than they are. However, even if it's true, Fallout pretty clearly intentionally made things not feel like a great sense of scale. The mood conveyed was tiny outposts alone in the wasteland. So, you could just as easily argue it's irrelevant to a "proper" Fallout game. And finally, there are iso games with better engines than Fallout's which depicted multistory buildings if that's what you're looking for.

I'm sure I could list more. You have struggled in the past to see Fallout as anything outside of exactly what the first game was, which makes it hard to create a sequel you'd find palatable.

shihonage: I really Fallout 1 and wish it's sequels were like it
DalekFlay: Why can't you just handle that Fallout's sequels are very different from the first game?

When someone makes a game which is finally actually better than Fallout, I'd be willing to agree that changes were for the better. That hasn't happened yet.

First person is neither better nor worse as a general rule, but it is worse for Fallout because Fallout is defined by the first game. That's what it's identity is.

 

[Xeon]

I like the progressive aspect of the world in Fallout 2 and FNV since the game happens hundreds of years after the great war. Fallout 1 I guess had a reason for world to be grim and bleak, Fallout 3 is a joke and there was no reason for the world to be in that state IFAIK. Timeline.

Sniping is probably the best way to go about in FNV. You could blow enemies heads off before they get close and you could plant 1 or 2 mines for when they start marching towards you and take out probably the entire group if you got the skill and perks.

 

[undecaf]

I've been entertaining myself with a thought of how could a first person Fallout work, if worked similiarly to Wizardry 8 (don't read that as copypasting that system verbatim, all the shit included, but utilizing the gameplay format to work with the needs of Fallout and obviously improving and adding to the design) with map design and traveling options from Arcanum. The base functionality for the combat is - kind of - already in place. Not that anything like that will ever happen, but... It's a thought.

 

[Outlander]

The "bandaiding shit" is hyperbole (though I do think it fitting considering the basis on top of which NV was built). Of course there is a theoretical possibility for a good game in FPP. Plenty of different design possibilities to explore; not an optimal case, mind you, and I would diminish the emphasis on the word "action" in front of "RPG" quite heavyhandedly when it comes to gameplay, but I do think it is doable (likely not as a mainstream blockbuster, but that's - massappeal - not something I'd look for anyway).

And as for the FPS model... I think going more towards that kind of experience is the complete opposite direction of where the series should, go first person perspective or not.

If we must go this way, then exploration and world/NPC interaction could be done in third person perspective. Think Just Cause 2 as a base example - also vehicles! and in combat encounters the camera could seamlessly pan out to an isometric perspective.

 

[DalekFlay]

When someone makes a game which is finally actually better than Fallout, I'd be willing to agree that changes were for the better. That hasn't happened yet.

First person is neither better nor worse as a general rule, but it is worse for Fallout because Fallout is defined by the first game. That's what it's identity is.

I've never been one to judge sequels by how exactly they replicate the original game. Good games are good games. And as you said yourself, isometric and first-person are different things, with different advantages and disadvantages. Similarly New Vegas and Fallout 1 are different games, with different advantages and disadvantages.

When guys like shihonage refuse to accept any change in the series (which I know from previous debates he does, whether he says it or not) they basically set themselves up to never be satisfied. As Fallout 2 and Arcanum prove, even if 3D never happened developers would try new things rather than just making Fallout again. Same thing with the Kickstarter incline, those who refuse to accept the new games won't be carbon copies will be the most disappointed.

 

[tuluse]

Tim Cain quit Black Isle because of the changes to Fallout

 

[Major_Blackhart]

No, he quit over money

 

[Jaesun]

Is there any existing first person shooter that you believe could serve as a good model for a good first person Fallout?

You know, something similar to System Shock 2, in the Fallout setting. Imagine you are like trapped in some hellish vault or something like that.

That would actually be more enjoyable than this current Bethesda Fallout (and even New Vegas).

 

[Broseph]

Is there any existing first person shooter that you believe could serve as a good model for a good first person Fallout?

You know, something similar to System Shock 2, in the Fallout setting. Imagine you are like trapped in some hellish vault or something like that.

That would actually be more enjoyable than this current Bethesda Fallout (and even New Vegas).

New Vegas had some pretty good survivor horror vaults (Vault 34).

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah Vault 34 was fun. Now imagine an entire game taking place in a huge Vault.

 

[undecaf]

undecaf

I have a question for the people who consider New Vegas to be a poor game because it's "bandaiding Bethesda's shit".

Just want to make it clear that I don't consider New Vegas a poor game overall. The narrative design carries over well, but I find the gameplay and presentation uninspired and loose (for reasons that I think are obvious) - it's more complicated than the simple difference between "poor" and "good".

 

[Cazzeris]

In my opinion, a new emergent civilization which is trying to create a new world based on getting over past errors is more interesting than another played-out vault.

 

[Xeon]

Fallout kinda feels more about the choices and making difference more than anything else, I can't imagine an entire game being stuck in a vault for survival horor. There was an FNV mod which the first episode taking place in the vault, only played it when it first came out and it was not that good I think.

I did not play the System Shock series so I might be misunderstanding the idea. Sorry if I am.