Fallout 4 Pre-Announcement Bullshit Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[roll-a-die]

Hearthfire was for console gamers. No one forces you to buy it on PC.

True PC Gamers don't buy crap.

I bought skyrim when the legendary edition for PC was like 10 bucks at a local K-Mart sale. So I got it for free basically.

 

[Davaris]

Reading the Vault location holodisk, gave me an impression of lots of cost-cutting, embezzled funds, bullshitting, shoddy quality, etc. going on behind the pretty words even when I was a teen.
The "Vault 12 was given the "Pressed Vault Suit" award for attention to preparedness." is particularly chilling.
Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even properly test the vault systems in most of vaults and Vault 12 probably wasn't even finished.

The difference between a ship and a vault is that the public will discover vaults being unfinished/faulty only after the world is fucked.

Pretty much the way everything funded by the US Gov has worked for a long time.

The "Vault 12 was given the "Pressed Vault Suit" award for attention to preparedness."

Just sounds like the usual 1950s "Duck and Cover" guff to me.

Again, we have something as mechanically complex as power armor, that works flawlessly everywhere. Yet a rolling door is too difficult? Now if everything else in the world had technical problems, I could see it.

 

[Dead Guy]

Perhaps we should look at Vault Tec more as a company running a huge scam and that they think no one's ever going to call their bluff, and even if they do (i.e. nuclear war happens) who cares cause the world's gonna end either way but they'll be rich if it never happens. Then the nukes fly and it turns out the shelters they built are shit, built as cheaply as possible for maximum profit for Vault Tec.

This obviously wouldn't happen with stuff like powered armor that's developed by the military.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Reading the Vault location holodisk, gave me an impression of lots of cost-cutting, embezzled funds, bullshitting, shoddy quality, etc. going on behind the pretty words even when I was a teen.
The "Vault 12 was given the "Pressed Vault Suit" award for attention to preparedness." is particularly chilling.
Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even properly test the vault systems in most of vaults and Vault 12 probably wasn't even finished.

The difference between a ship and a vault is that the public will discover vaults being unfinished/faulty only after the world is fucked.

Pretty much the way everything funded by the US Gov has worked for a long time. Again, we have something as mechanically complex as power armor, that works flawlessly everywhere. Yet a rolling door is too difficult?

Faulty Powered Armour would be quickly repaired/discarded in everyday use.

An unfinished Vault could be a massive fuckup and a potential scandal that would be covered up and given a reward so that no one would feel need to look at it too closely.

Then just because high tech stuff exists, it doesn't mean that neglect and low quality stuff doesn't exist. In some cases, with public procurements going to lowest bidders or being set up for politician's buddies, there's a lot of fuckups despite that better technology and personnel is available.

A quick search for failures of flood defenses:
http://www.itv.com/news/central/upd...used-by-faulty-sensor-in-1-5m-flood-defences/

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/08/new-orleans/online-extra-text/1

 

[Davaris]

This obviously wouldn't happen with stuff like powered armor that's developed by the military.

Military use private contractors like everyone else. Same kind of scams running there as well.

 

[Dead Guy]

West Tek, in this case. I'd argue that it would be obvious if their armor didn't work properly much quicker than if the vaults weren't functional, though.

 

[Davaris]

But yeah, you guys are right a scam could also work in the design, but I would want to see evidence of it in the game. If its there, cool.

Scams like these are allowed by government corruption at the top, so they would be pretty widespread and affect a lot of services.

 

[Davaris]

West Tek, in this case. I'd argue that it would be obvious if their armor didn't work properly much quicker than if the vaults weren't functional, though.

You obviously haven't seen Pentagon Wars. lol

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

But yeah, you guys are right a scam could also work in the design, but I would want to see evidence of it in the game. If its there, cool.

Scams like these are allowed by government corruption at the top, so they would be pretty widespread and affect a lot of services.

Well, the scam was the first thought that I got after reading the holodisk. Then there's the manual and this overseer's note in it:

Yeah, right. Who wrote this? What budget they get?
already used most equipment on failed attempts to contact an outside civilization.
And we’ve been in here a lot longer than ten years.
We have little left to give you, but we will give you what we can.

By the way, according to the design document from SWORDS & CIRCUITRY: A DESIGNER'S GUIDE TO COMPUTER ROLE-PLAYING GAMES book, the original version of Vault 15 had the central core room unburied with computers melted due to extreme heat and pressure and had a holodisk on the floor with the following information:

"Vault-15 Computer Log. 11 Dec 2067. The water-processing chip has failed. All backups have failed to correct the problem. The water reserves are at 2%. The Vault will have to be abandoned. Most everyone has already left. There are just a few people remaining to finish the Vault power down. We are preparing to shut down the power system to protect the equipment from surg#%^#....".

It looks like they were extremely cynical about the quality of the vaults, because Vault 15 was supposed to get a water chip failure, then a meltdown and finally an earthquake burial D: .

 

[shihonage]

Why can't they make a game like FO or Arcanum with TOEE style combat?

I thought you had played Underrail?

In Underrail, combat mechanics are its main gameplay system and also the main target of its creative focus. It is as good of an approach as any, but it's not the same type of game as Fallout and Arcanum.

"My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun. " - Tim Cain

That's about world-building, not game mechanics.

It's about where development focus went

Also, better plasma guns are a refuge of games with shit combat.

Don't go into the ridiculous territory of trying to misinterpret something that's clear-cut. It's a desperate move to alter reality to your liking. He wasn't literally talking about a weapon upgrade.

Tim Cain is not you, and his focus is not your focus. No amount of wishing will change that.

GURPS: Fallout would have a JA2-level combat system.

No, it would've had GURPS instead of SPECIAL and the same combat system. Because it did have GURPS, and then they changed it.

Development time is always spent according to priorities and vision.

It's clear from Tim Cain's words and actions that he viewed combat as just one of the gameplay systems, not THE system. I see that as an enlightened approach, because, frankly, combat for the sake of combat is the STAPLE of RPGs, and it bores the living shit out of me.

Fallout put a lot of focus into quest scripting variety, content variety, dialogue scripting, non-linearity on several levels, and world-building. More games should start seeing things this way.

Fallout's follower system was perfect as it was, considering Tim Cain's vision. It was a scripted afterthought. You weren't mandated or strongly encouraged to have a party. The game was a player-centric experience, where your stats had to matter the most, and those of your "party" were just small, secondary, temporary bonuses.

There was a time when this was clearly seen and understood. Fallout was a deliberate and unique design, which got spun out of orbit by too many cooks when Tim Cain left the project.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It's about where development focus went

After they have lost license for a very sophisticated set of mechanics and they had to come up something in a few weeks.

Also, better plasma guns are a refuge of games with shit combat.

Don't go into the ridiculous territory of trying to misinterpret something that's clear-cut. It's a desperate move to alter reality to your liking. He wasn't literally talking about a weapon upgrade.

Tim Cain is not you, and his focus is not your focus. No amount of wishing will change that.

Which doesn't change the fact that muchkinfesting and super weapon progression is a refugee of games with shit combat.

GURPS: Fallout would have a JA2-level combat system.

No, it would've had GURPS instead of SPECIAL and the same combat system. Because it did have GURPS, and then they changed it.

You are wrong. GURPS Fallout had a very different combat system.
Main differences are:
-GURPS is a simulationist system.
-Turn in GURPS lasts 1 second.
-It's possible to Aim for multiple Turns in GURPS to make full use of weapon accuracy.
-Below certain level of skill, one must Aim for 1 turn to avoid an accuracy penalty.
-There are different manoeuvres to use during turn: Move, Step and Fire, Aim, Long Action, Attack, All-Out Attack, All-Out Defense, Change Position (possibly not implemented due to lack of animations), Feint, Wait.
-Besides critical hits, there are flat damage modifiers for hitting specific body parts. For example limbs halve damage, Vitals triple damage while Brain quadruples damage. Crippling limbs and eyes requires going over a specific damage threshold - so it's possible to do it without critical hits.
-Weapon damage is higher in proportion to HP.
-There's negative HP with saving throws against losing consciousness and against dying.
1-3 HP cuts move in half.
0 or less rolls against falling unconscious each turn.
-HT HP - roll against dying. Every 5 HP lost another roll against dying.
-5xHT Automatic Death.
-There's shock after for 1 turn after injury.
-Weapons can take 1 or 2 hands. There's division in punch and kick.
-There's Fatigue.
-There are no increases of HP without spending character points on HT attribute.
-Advancement through Character Points instead of XP.

It's clear from Tim Cain's words and actions that he viewed combat as just one of the gameplay systems, not THE system. I see that as an enlightened approach, because, frankly, combat for the sake of combat is the STAPLE of RPGs, and it bores the living shit out of me.

Fallout put a lot of focus into quest scripting variety, content variety, dialogue scripting, non-linearity on several levels, and world-building. More games should start seeing things this way.

You conveniently forget the amount of effort that went into Fallouts hastily put together erzatz combat system in comparison to most of shit cRPG combat systems that don't even have critical hit tables and aimed shots.

Also, GURPS with its lethality would make normal basic considerations like taking in account level of threats vs. the level of necessity of engaging into conflict.

GURPS combat is DEADLY. It makes a huge difference. Just look a this:

Generally, accurate automatic and aimed fire tends to leave people REALLY dead.

It's not a kind of system where you want to needlessly expose yourself to enemy fire. Which is an important consideration when exploring more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world.

 

[DalekFlay]

GURPS or no GURPS Fallout is about a shit ton more than combat.

 

[agentorange]

They probably marketed the Vaults the same way video game developers market their games (the same way Bethesda marketed F3): demo build. Spend the extra money to build one super polished Vault, everything in perfect working condition, allow investors, government, safety to run through and convince them the other vaults will be like it, then build a bunch of vaults that are sub-standard but no one will ever know because they won't see wide use until after a nuclear apocalypse.

 

[shihonage]

Awor Szurkrarz I brofist your research, even if I don't agree with your conclusions.

DalekFlay I wonder if storyfags like ourselves are becoming an extinct species.

 

[karfhud]

GURPS or no GURPS Fallout is about a shit ton more than combat.

I'd brofist that but since I can't, I'll just write what he said.

 

[Ramireza]

A Tod Howard Interview in a german Magazin :

http://www.gamestar.de/news/vermischtes/3056555/video_interview_mit_bethesdas_todd_howard.html

 

[Abu Antar]

A Tod Howard Interview in a german Magazin :

http://www.gamestar.de/news/vermischtes/3056555/video_interview_mit_bethesdas_todd_howard.html

YES, YES, spell his name wrong. That'll teach him.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Awor Szurkrarz I brofist your research, even if I don't agree with your conclusions.

DalekFlay I wonder if storyfags like ourselves are becoming an extinct species.

RPGs with great combat like GURPS or the Riddle of Steel, naturally lead to emphasis on story and non-combat solutions to problems.

3rd edition GURPS manual outrightly says:
"fights are deadly. Avoid them"

GURPS or no GURPS Fallout is about a shit ton more than combat.

With GURPS it would be even more than combat than now.

There are still people who treat Fallout as a massive power fantasy thanks to how SPECIAL works.

 

[Infinitron]

A Tod Howard Interview in a german Magazin :

http://www.gamestar.de/news/vermischtes/3056555/video_interview_mit_bethesdas_todd_howard.html

What a funny voice he has.

 

[Cadmus]

I literally couldn't watch the thing because of his childish voice. He really is that special kind of manchild in the charge of making a game for other children.

 

[Infinitron]

It's actually a pretty heartfelt interview. I was expecting way more marketing-speak.

He even sticks up for Kickstarter near the end.

 

[Cazzeris]

-It's fabulous!



This man is just ridiculous.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

It's about where development focus went

After they have lost license for a very sophisticated set of mechanics and they had to come up something in a few weeks.

Also, better plasma guns are a refuge of games with shit combat.

Don't go into the ridiculous territory of trying to misinterpret something that's clear-cut. It's a desperate move to alter reality to your liking. He wasn't literally talking about a weapon upgrade.

Tim Cain is not you, and his focus is not your focus. No amount of wishing will change that.

Which doesn't change the fact that muchkinfesting and super weapon progression is a refugee of games with shit combat.

GURPS: Fallout would have a JA2-level combat system.

No, it would've had GURPS instead of SPECIAL and the same combat system. Because it did have GURPS, and then they changed it.

You are wrong. GURPS Fallout had a very different combat system.
Main differences are:
-GURPS is a simulationist system.
-Turn in GURPS lasts 1 second.
-It's possible to Aim for multiple Turns in GURPS to make full use of weapon accuracy.
-Below certain level of skill, one must Aim for 1 turn to avoid an accuracy penalty.
-There are different manoeuvres to use during turn: Move, Step and Fire, Aim, Long Action, Attack, All-Out Attack, All-Out Defense, Change Position (possibly not implemented due to lack of animations), Feint, Wait.
-Besides critical hits, there are flat damage modifiers for hitting specific body parts. For example limbs halve damage, Vitals triple damage while Brain quadruples damage. Crippling limbs and eyes requires going over a specific damage threshold - so it's possible to do it without critical hits.
-Weapon damage is higher in proportion to HP.
-There's negative HP with saving throws against losing consciousness and against dying.
1-3 HP cuts move in half.
0 or less rolls against falling unconscious each turn.
-HT HP - roll against dying. Every 5 HP lost another roll against dying.
-5xHT Automatic Death.
-There's shock after for 1 turn after injury.
-Weapons can take 1 or 2 hands. There's division in punch and kick.
-There's Fatigue.
-There are no increases of HP without spending character points on HT attribute.
-Advancement through Character Points instead of XP.

It's clear from Tim Cain's words and actions that he viewed combat as just one of the gameplay systems, not THE system. I see that as an enlightened approach, because, frankly, combat for the sake of combat is the STAPLE of RPGs, and it bores the living shit out of me.

Fallout put a lot of focus into quest scripting variety, content variety, dialogue scripting, non-linearity on several levels, and world-building. More games should start seeing things this way.

You conveniently forget the amount of effort that went into Fallouts hastily put together erzatz combat system in comparison to most of shit cRPG combat systems that don't even have critical hit tables and aimed shots.

Also, GURPS with its lethality would make normal basic considerations like taking in account level of threats vs. the level of necessity of engaging into conflict.

GURPS combat is DEADLY. It makes a huge difference. Just look a this:

Generally, accurate automatic and aimed fire tends to leave people REALLY dead.

It's not a kind of system where you want to needlessly expose yourself to enemy fire. Which is an important consideration when exploring more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world.

Are there some traces of GURPS combat system in the Fallout files? It's possible to restore it, at least partially?

 

[tuluse]

Are there some traces of GURPS combat system in the Fallout files? It's possible to restore it, at least partially?

I'm pretty sure you'd be better off writing a GURPS engine yourself and porting the Fallout content to it.

 

[G.O.D]

A Tod Howard Interview in a german Magazin :

http://www.gamestar.de/news/vermischtes/3056555/video_interview_mit_bethesdas_todd_howard.html

What a funny voice he has.

I like the part where the interviewer almost makes a critical comment about the casualisation of TES series, and then instantly sticks this tongue inside Todd's rectum, and calling Skyrim hardcore.

Good joke. 10\10. Would laugh again. Oh well.