Squeenix Final Fantasy VII Remake Integrade - now on Steam

[GhostCow]

Nope, you're the one with nostalgia glasses on. If you think pixel graphics still look good by 2020 standards you are the one who is retarded

Joined: Jan 2, 2020

2D graphics look objectively better than early day 3D.

Never said they didn't. I just said they don't look good either. They may look better, but they still don't look good. You can't make out anything but the biggest most important details on anything less powerful than a neogeo. Neogeo stuff still looks kind of ok. SNES stuff looks ok for it's time but by today's standards it's really bad. Just look at any sprite from any SNES RPG. They weren't even high enough resolution to have noses or mouths on the faces. In your 8-bit example I can't even tell what Simon is wearing. Some kind of orange shirt with a random brown stripe in the middle and brown panties maybe? What's going on with the moon? Is it being raped by an anime tentacle monster? It's shit.

The fuck does join date have to do with anything? You think the circle jerk here is special and that I haven't seen the same opinion everywhere else for years?

 

[Machocruz]

SNES character sprites and backgrounds are usually nothing to holler about, but some of boss art still look great, especially Squaresoft games.

And the Metal Slug games, which are NeoGeo stuff, look beyond decent or ok.

 

[Okagron]

Nope, you're the one with nostalgia glasses on. If you think pixel graphics still look good by 2020 standards you are the one who is retarded

No, pretty sure you are the retarded one here. And i didn't played Final Fantasy 6 until the early 2010s, so you can stick that nostalgia bullshit argument up your ass, you mentally challenged dumbfuck.

Also, what the fuck does nostalgia have to do with artstyles? They either look good or bad, so no nostalgia nonsense when deciding that. Always seeing dumbfucks like you using the "nostalgia argument" to justify why people like anything.

 

[GhostCow]

Nope, you're the one with nostalgia glasses on. If you think pixel graphics still look good by 2020 standards you are the one who is retarded

No, pretty sure you are the retarded one here. And i didn't played Final Fantasy 6 until the early 2010s, so you can stick that nostalgia bullshit argument up your ass, you mentally challenged dumbfuck.

Also, what the fuck does nostalgia have to do with artstyles? They either look good or bad, so no nostalgia nonsense when deciding that. Always seeing dumbfucks like you using the "nostalgia argument" to justify why people like anything.

Art style is subjective and not worth debating. I'm not talking about art styles. I'm talking about the technical limitations of what could be done at the time. We didn't have the tech to make anything but low resolution pixelated bullshit that's devoid of fine details for many years. To still make games in that style today is stupid. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Calling people retarded over subjective opinions is pretty fucking gay and childish but I didn't come here because people are nice so whatever.

I think Amano's style is fucking ugly. Even outside of the technical limitations. His drawings look like shit to me but I'm not trying to debate that because it's subjective

 

[Damned Registrations]

Just look at any sprite from any SNES RPG. They weren't even high enough resolution to have noses or mouths on the faces.

You mean like this sprite?

They sometimes didn't have noses because they took up a tiny fraction of the screen and it'd be retarded to put such a tiny unrecognizable detail on. You might as well be complaining about the lack of facial features on rts units. They have fucking portraits for a reason, and those look fine damned good. Lara's fucking picasso face does not and never did.

 

[GhostCow]

Just look at any sprite from any SNES RPG. They weren't even high enough resolution to have noses or mouths on the faces.

You mean like this sprite?

They sometimes didn't have noses because they took up a tiny fraction of the screen and it'd be retarded to put such a tiny unrecognizable detail on. You might as well be complaining about the lack of facial features on rts units. They have fucking portraits for a reason, and those look fine damned good. Lara's fucking picasso face does not and never did.

That sprite looks ok for it's time. If you put that in a game made in 2020 and expected me to be impressed I wouldn't be. That's the point I'm making. Ya'll can disagree if you want but understand what my point is. If your art is from 2020 and I can see the pixels your art sucks.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Just look at any sprite from any SNES RPG. They weren't even high enough resolution to have noses or mouths on the faces.

You mean like this sprite?

They sometimes didn't have noses because they took up a tiny fraction of the screen and it'd be retarded to put such a tiny unrecognizable detail on. You might as well be complaining about the lack of facial features on rts units. They have fucking portraits for a reason, and those look fine damned good. Lara's fucking picasso face does not and never did.

That sprite looks ok for it's time. If you put that in a game made in 2020 and expected me to be impressed I wouldn't be. That's the point I'm making. Ya'll can disagree if you want but understand what my point is. If your art is from 2020 and I can see the pixels your art sucks.

So you think that looks terrible compared to, say, this:

 

[GhostCow]

Just look at any sprite from any SNES RPG. They weren't even high enough resolution to have noses or mouths on the faces.

You mean like this sprite?

They sometimes didn't have noses because they took up a tiny fraction of the screen and it'd be retarded to put such a tiny unrecognizable detail on. You might as well be complaining about the lack of facial features on rts units. They have fucking portraits for a reason, and those look fine damned good. Lara's fucking picasso face does not and never did.

That sprite looks ok for it's time. If you put that in a game made in 2020 and expected me to be impressed I wouldn't be. That's the point I'm making. Ya'll can disagree if you want but understand what my point is. If your art is from 2020 and I can see the pixels your art sucks.

So you think that looks terrible compared to, say, this:

Yes. Without taking style into account I absolutely do.

 

[Tigranes]

Why wouldn't we take style into account?

"Aside from the fact that it has terrible art direction and style, it sure has more pixels and uses more computing power!!!"

 

[GhostCow]

Why wouldn't we take style into account?

"Aside from the fact that it has terrible art direction and style, it sure has more pixels and uses more computing power!!!"

That's the point I'm making! It's pixelated bullshit vs crisp clear art. The sprite has a way cooler style. I like the gothic look. It's still pixelated and looks like shit compared to what it would look like if it was made as nice vector art. To make something pixelated like that on purpose in 2020 and call it a style is stupid. You can have that exact same style and make it look amazing.

I never once said that the art styles from that time don't hold up. I said that the low resolution pixelated shit looks bad by today's standards which has nothing at all to do with the actual art style. I can't tell if you guys have shitty reading comprehension or are just blind.

 

[Okagron]

I see a multiple tags dumbfuck retard in the making.

 

[Tigranes]

Why wouldn't we take style into account?

"Aside from the fact that it has terrible art direction and style, it sure has more pixels and uses more computing power!!!"

That's the point I'm making! It's pixelated bullshit vs crisp clear art. The sprite has a way cooler style. I like the gothic look. It's still pixelated and looks like shit compared to what it would look like if it was made as nice vector art. To make something pixelated like that on purpose in 2020 and call it a style is stupid. You can have that exact same style and make it look amazing.

I never once said that the art styles from that time don't hold up. I said that the low resolution pixelated shit looks bad by today's standards which has nothing at all to do with the actual art style.

What are these "standards" that you speak of? Clearly they have nothing to do with art direction, style, a sense of beauty.

Are you claiming that low resolution stuff is crappy because anything would look better with higher resolution? Or because anything that doesn't use the "latest" technologies is inferior?

Is it "stupid" to record a one-take album in 2020 using a mix of older and newer technologies (which, by the way, is what newer pixel games do, they don't exclusively use 1990s tech)? Or to use a 1960's Moog synthesiser?

Maybe it is a way of actually sitting down and thinking about what certain techniques bring to the table in terms of how it looks, the technical capabilities, how it influences your creative process, etc, etc?

If you don't like how pixel graphics became some kind of retro fad the last few years, fine. I also think it was sometimes just used as a trend without a lot of thought behind it. But that's not actually what you're arguing, you're making these big sweeping arguments that don't really have a lot of well thought out substance behind them. None of your posts suggest that you actually understand anything about artistic style or the game making process.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Why wouldn't we take style into account?

"Aside from the fact that it has terrible art direction and style, it sure has more pixels and uses more computing power!!!"

That's the point I'm making! It's pixelated bullshit vs crisp clear art. The sprite has a way cooler style. I like the gothic look. It's still pixelated and looks like shit compared to what it would look like if it was made as nice vector art. To make something pixelated like that on purpose in 2020 and call it a style is stupid. You can have that exact same style and make it look amazing.

You realize that the 'amazing' versions of old SNES rpgs you're talking about look like this right?

 

[Okagron]

Oh god, i forgot about those. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be fired.

 

[GhostCow]

"Aside from the fact that it has terrible art direction and style, it sure has more pixels and uses more computing power!!!"

What are these "standards" that you speak of? Clearly they have nothing to do with art direction, style, a sense of beauty.

No they don't. I am talking about what the limited tech of the time could do and how bad it looks compared to what we can do today. I don't know how many fucking times I have to repeat this before you guys get it. What I'm saying is no different than what the people who say early 3d looks like shit say and I agree with them. I'm applying that same line of thinking to 2d art. Why is it so controversial to say this about 2d art but not 3d art?

Are you claiming that low resolution stuff is crappy because anything would look better with higher resolution?

Sort of. I'm saying it looks like shit compared to what it would look like if done today as a vector or at high resolution. This is what I mean when I say it looks bad by today's standards.

Is it "stupid" to record a one-take album in 2020 using a mix of older and newer technologies (which, by the way, is what newer pixel games do, they don't exclusively use 1990s tech)? Or to use a 1960's Moog synthesiser?

It would be stupid to make digital music and fill it with the popping and hissing that comes from vinyl records and call it "art". That would be a more accurate example if you want to talk sound.

If you don't like how pixel graphics became some kind of retro fad the last few years, fine. I also think it was sometimes just used as a trend without a lot of thought behind it.

Yes, I hate that shit. Thank you for understanding.

You realize that the 'amazing' versions of old SNES rpgs you're talking about look like this right?

That looks like shit from a stylistic standpoint but from a technical standpoint yes it looks better.

 

[Necroscope]

The fuck does join date have to do with anything? You think the circle jerk here is special and that I haven't seen the same opinion everywhere else for years?

Join dates are a thing because they often correspond with peasant behavior. Like the typical NeoGaf fag who spams "That's just, like, your opinion" meme from The Big Lebowski or repeats bullshit like "You say it's good only because of nostalgia" to justify some AAA shit.

This looks quite awesome:

This looks like shit:

That is because the former translates the spirit of the character much better than something that tries to look modern for the sake of it but ends up uncanny valley.

 

[GhostCow]

This looks quite awesome:

This looks like shit:

That is because the former translates the spirit of the character much better than something that tries to look modern for the sake of it but ends up uncanny valley.

We agree on this but that sprite isn't super pixelated. It has a nice level of detail too. I'm going to guess that one came from expensive arcade hardware.

 

[Tigranes]

Clearly there's some aspect of older graphics that you think is fine and some aspect you think is shitty but you just can't seem to explain in a clear and specific way.

Of course you could do a game like FF6 and use some modern techniques to make judicious improvements - but to do so in an intelligent way, you need to have an understanding of the art direction and how your technical decisions contribute to that. You don't improve any game visual just by adding more pixels. So what is it about that scene above or the design of the characters or the perspectives that is improved by the play-doh clay blobs of the FF6 remake?

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think it's the part where the seams in the bricks don't line up in the pillar's base. That's really a great improvement only achievable with the higher resolution.

 

[GhostCow]

Clearly there's some aspect of older graphics that you think is fine and some aspect you think is shitty but you just can't seem to explain in a clear and specific way.

Of course you could do a game like FF6 and use some modern techniques to make judicious improvements - but to do so in an intelligent way, you need to have an understanding of the art direction and how your technical decisions contribute to that. You don't improve any game visual just by adding more pixels. So what is it about that scene above or the design of the characters or the perspectives that is improved by the play-doh clay blobs of the FF6 remake?

I can't put it into words but the remake sprites just look better to me. I don't like how they're kind of blurry but at least they don't look super pixelated. I know most people hated them and that I'm in the minority here. I don't think that particular style works at high resolutions but I didn't like it during it's time either. Maybe that's my problem. I don't like some of the styles that came about because of the limitations of the time. That enemy sprite posted earlier looks pretty good stylistically and it could work at higher resolutions but the sprites of the player characters in FF6 look terrible to me and I don't think they would have been made in that style if not for the limitations at the time.

I think it's the part where the seams in the bricks don't line up in the pillar's base. That's really a great improvement only achievable with the higher resolution.

It's a shit port. They didn't take the time to make sure things line up after they screwed with the art. I'm not sure what your point is here. They should have just remade all the art from scratch instead of being lazy and upscaling.

 

[Tigranes]

I mean, hey, you're entitled to your personal opinion. But surely you can see that if you can't really explain it to us in a structured way, you're not really going to persuade others. I don't think anybody jerks off to pixels just because they're pixels. The point is that having a good art direction and executing it to create a beautiful scene doesn't ever depend on using newer tech just for the sake of it (or using older tech just for the sake of it).

I personally think FF6 looks quite good but not particularly amazing, and that comes a lot more down to their direction rather than the technology. There's plenty of pixel SNES games that look a lot better/worse. I don't sit there with the illusion that if only they had higher resolutions it would look so much better.

 

[GhostCow]

I mean, hey, you're entitled to your personal opinion. But surely you can see that if you can't really explain it to us in a structured way, you're not really going to persuade others.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Just stating my opinion.

I don't think anybody jerks off to pixels just because they're pixels. The point is that having a good art direction and executing it to create a beautiful scene doesn't ever depend on using newer tech just for the sake of it (or using older tech just for the sake of it)

The amount of people saying something like On The Rain Slick Precipice of Darkness and similar style modern games look good indicates that some people jerk off to pixels but I could be wrong. Not people here. Just gamers in general.

I personally think FF6 looks quite good but not particularly amazing, and that comes a lot more down to their direction rather than the technology. There's plenty of pixel SNES games that look a lot better/worse. I don't sit there with the illusion that if only they had higher resolutions it would look so much better.

You might have a point here but I still don't think 2d is really that much less prone to aging badly than 3d. Nothing you've stated in defense of old 2d art couldn't be applied to 3d and that's part of what bugs me about this discussion. I'll just agree to disagree and stop shitting up this thread with offtopic stuff if others will leave it alone too.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I mean, they remade the sprites from scratch and they honestly look even worse than the pillar. Not just stylistically either, they're objectively less detailed, with less detail on the lighting on character's hair and bodies and so forth, as well as fewer hues being used and (ironically) a lot of straight lines or sharp angles that were broken up to appear rounded in the original.

Could FF6 theoretically look better with higher resolution, more detailed sprites from a skilled artist? Sure. Does more pixels automatically look better than fewer pixels? God no. Binding of Isaac has modern vector graphics too. It still looks like it was drawn with a crayon.

I think you're getting butthurt over very low budget games being praised for good artwork in the context of their low budgets and small studios. Anyone saying TRSPoD looks good is a fan of the comic and praising it because they're happy how well it turned out considering it could have looked like some shitty flash game.

And something like Crosscode or Stardew Valley are objectively nice looking games with a lot of detail in their artwork and good technical (as in artistic technique) composition.

 

[Necroscope]

A genuine art direction that was properly embraced by the available technology is what created games that I find most aesthetically pleasing. For that reason I find many modern games uninspiring graphically; despite all the pixels, sleekness and post-processing effects, they just lack something that is hard to define that made many old games feel special.

 

[Machocruz]

I can see how the "grainy", jaggy look of lower res sprite work could put someone off. Like I think Street Fighter 3 still has some of the best 2D work ever, but it would look even better if the linework was less jagged- you can kind of get the idea with Skullgirls, but Reverge Labs do not have the character drawing chops of Capcom in their 2D glory days. In the context of when it was released, SF3 was next level and blows any 3D of the time away.
In a perfect world, SFV would have seamless 2D graphics and animation that blows it out of the water, or they would have used the Guilty Gear Xrd process.

Now if someone just said they hate 2D art completely, i would think they are a tasteless prat and an aesthetic retard, but that's not the case here.