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Falksi

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What I find hilarious is that while the mainline series has been flop after flop since 12, and every remake of the older titles has been a cashcow, whether it's a shitty low effort mobile port or the more recent pixel remasters, they can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that there is a huge fucking market for turn based gameplay still. Hell, Pokemon and Dragon Quest are still doing just fine despite having monster designs and writing seemingly pulled from a drunken 4 year old. Just fire the upper third or so of your developmet hierarchy, pull in some indie developers making shit in fucking Gamemaker or whatever and do what they tell you instead of trying to create 3 new genres at once with every fucking release.
Persona 6 is going to be a big kick in the cunt to them.

That series is very much starting to replace FF as the turn-based JRPG fans go-to, and I think the sales numbers from the next Persona entry will reflect that.

I dare say Reloaded will sell decent too (it might even match FF16 considering it's multi-platform), but that's not gonna snag & excite like a new entry.


The biggest test will be Metaphor: ReFantazio cause there's always a ceiling as to how much a weeaboo dating sim like the Persona games can sell, but a weeaboo dating Sim set in a fantasy world suddenly can appeal to a much larger audience. And can render the Final Fantasy games as irrelevant and pointless.
Man I'd utterly love it if Metaphor replaces FF as the go-to Fantasy-based JRPG series. I fucking detest FF fanboys and their negative influence on RPGs.

I swear most of the damage done to the genre was born out of the fact that FF6 + FF7 & Chrono Trigger attracted the dumbest collective of morons to it back in the day. The fact that a lot of them are turned off by Persona's time management is such a huge plus for the genre. It may actually go back to being a bit more prestigious again.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,686
What I find hilarious is that while the mainline series has been flop after flop since 12, and every remake of the older titles has been a cashcow, whether it's a shitty low effort mobile port or the more recent pixel remasters, they can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that there is a huge fucking market for turn based gameplay still. Hell, Pokemon and Dragon Quest are still doing just fine despite having monster designs and writing seemingly pulled from a drunken 4 year old. Just fire the upper third or so of your developmet hierarchy, pull in some indie developers making shit in fucking Gamemaker or whatever and do what they tell you instead of trying to create 3 new genres at once with every fucking release.
Persona 6 is going to be a big kick in the cunt to them.

That series is very much starting to replace FF as the turn-based JRPG fans go-to, and I think the sales numbers from the next Persona entry will reflect that.

I dare say Reloaded will sell decent too (it might even match FF16 considering it's multi-platform), but that's not gonna snag & excite like a new entry.


The biggest test will be Metaphor: ReFantazio cause there's always a ceiling as to how much a weeaboo dating sim like the Persona games can sell, but a weeaboo dating Sim set in a fantasy world suddenly can appeal to a much larger audience. And can render the Final Fantasy games as irrelevant and pointless.

It’s not a dating sim. It’s just a JRPG with a time management element added to it.

It’ll be interesting to see how Metaphor does, because it seems like there’s a fairly vocal portion of the Persona fan base, at least online and in the West, that seem more married to the Persona brand than the team behind it. Especially as the years go on an they circle jerk about “problematic” elements in the series. Like these morons are the type of people that are happy the person that made the thing they like isn’t making the thing anymore. It’s bizarre. That’s all just kind of to say there may be a group of Persona fandom that doesn’t follow the Persona team to their new thing.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Open world failed for them, copying the Witcher failed, live service games failed (Avengers), FF7R did well(?) So I'd guess more nostalgia milking with remakes and sequels. "FF9-2, I wanna be your bluejay."

Given the resurgence of TB it'd be pretty dumb if they didn't make a proper FF tactics sequel, even as a budget product. I enjoyed the Trials of Mana remake and that would be a fine model to bring back SNES properties, but they're doing that Octopath 2d-3d thing instead. DQ11 felt like an upscale remake of an SNES game and that seemed to do well for them.

The question I have is who is responsible for this? Did Yoshi P have this dream of Game of Thrones FF with budget DMC combat? Really? Did they tell him to make whatever he wanted, and this is what he came up with? Or were there suits forcing this stuff on him?
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Given the resurgence of TB it'd be pretty dumb if they didn't make a proper FF tactics sequel
It used to be common wisdom turn-based combat is niche shit for smelly nerds but now that BG3 sold zomteen gorillion copies everybody is gonna start reconsidering.

Just like everything had to be open world after Skyrim and soulslike after Dark Souls and grimdark after Witcher, I bet we'll get an influx of high-budget RPGs with turn-based combat.

At least until it turns out turn-based actually IS niche and the BG3 success was mostly due to late empire degeneracy.

Then we'll get an influx of games with bear sex (or about).
 

Grauken

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At least until it turns out turn-based actually IS niche and the BG3 success was mostly due to late empire degeneracy.
It's a combi of excellent encounter design, TB that is fun, good graphics and compelling chars (to which 99% of codexers are blind, but it is what it is). The "degeneracy" you get in any generic hentai game on Steam, but these don't sell buckets like BG3 did.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,754
Hmmmm….




Something I only just noticed today was the anime and when was this even made?


Phantasie only included for the jumping victory animation that FF seemed to reproduce. (Phantasie II was the same and I couldn’t get any Phant 3-5 combat only animation. Not that it matters since it isn’t FF anyways… still. JUMPY VICTORY YAAAAAAYYYY!!)

I like FF4 combat music best.
 

Falksi

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I like FF4 combat music best.
All the SNES FF games had good music, but this one has to take the cake:


5's the best in the franchise at almost everything apart from story for me. An actual good game which remains engaging for most of the journey thanks to the job system and fact it actually has some level of challenge too.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
711
The biggest test will be Metaphor: ReFantazio

Is another isekai mixed with Persona. Has nothing to do with old Final Fantasy.
Doesn't even take place in a fantasy setting, just in current day's world.

It's a fantasy game with links to current day setting, how it is linked to the current day setting is a mystery. Maybe it is an isekai, maybe it is something else.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Hmmmm….

That combat video is so stupid. Is that guy a moron? Wowzers, you can charge magic/melee during the animation for a few other moves. iNsAnEE teCH bRo!

That might actually be the only 'tech' in the game that matters, since charge attacks at least deal some damage. The problem with FF16's combat, in relation to something like DMC, is Clive's moves are pathetically weak and he has only one combo (two if you count his Devil Trigger mode, which is also weak).

It's hard to believe the DMC guy worked on this because it plays nothing like the satisfying, technical gameplay of DMC 3-4-5. I refuse to believe anyone who played DMC3 US version at launch (which locked you to Hard mode by default) would find this game's combat 'good.'

You notice in that video he's spamming weak magic hits and air juggles and the enemy never dies until he hits them with an Eikon Ability. If he started with the Eikon attack the enemy would be dead already. All the combo-ing is totally pointless, it doesn't do enough damage. Compared to Dante, Clive has no Million Stab, no Prop/Shredder, no pause combos, no 'Style moves,' etc. Without Eikon attacks, the only way to hurt enemies is to knock them down and do a finisher move. Charge attack/magic, finisher, repeat. Works on everything that doesn't have a stagger bar.

General melee is not needed nor rewarded, all you need are Eikon moves. Phoenix and Garuda are pretty trash, but once you have Ramuh and Titan you can do Pile Drive/Upheaval -> collect XP/Gil. Battle over. There is no need to bother with anything else. This is not a 'special build' either, these are basic moves you will always have. You don't get a 'style rank' or more XP/AP for doing 'cool' attacks. This is even revealed in the Arcade mode where, surprise surprise, the attacks that earn the most points are spamming Eikon abilities (or using the finisher on downed foes). I walked into a room and combo'd enemies to death: 30k points. Use Pile drive once: 150k points, S rank! Can't do that in Bloody Palace.

I suspect the stagger bar is partly to blame. In order to make it important, enemies are massive damage sponges, so the best strategy is to empty the stagger bar and then dump all your Eikon attacks into them while they're stunned. It works, but it's boring. They should have given Clive fewer room clearing spells (that should be Devil Trigger only), more weapons, more combos, more unique Eikon mechanics, and no stupid cooldown moves.
 
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karoliner

Arcane
Vatnik
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Oct 31, 2016
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Most skilled black nation
Final Fantasy is a mainstream franchise with AAA budget. 16 was always going to have a simplified, casualized gameplay with broad appeal, no matter how much it may have resembled Devil May Cry on the first drafts. I doubt Ryota Suzuki ever had total freedom on the combat.
 

scytheavatar

Scholar
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
711
Final Fantasy is a mainstream franchise with AAA budget. 16 was always going to have a simplified, casualized gameplay with broad appeal, no matter how much it may have resembled Devil May Cry on the first drafts. I doubt Ryota Suzuki ever had total freedom on the combat.

Problem is I am not convinced "simplified, casualized gameplay" has broad appeal.............. the FF games at the prime of the franchise (FF6-FF10) were not hard or complicated but even the easiest of them (arguable if it is FF6 or 7) at least pretended to have some degree of complexity and player choice in them. The #1 causal friendly game released last year was Elden Ring, #1 causal friendly game this year is Baldur's Gate 3. I think a lot of people underestimate how much casuals are willing to play complex games and just have fun even if they don't know what they are doing.

Also, DMC gameplay has always been causal, button mashing friendly if you are not playing at the harder difficulties. Only when you are doing the latter that you are forced to learn the mechanics of the game.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Right, it's hard to just say, well, they dumbed it down for the masses. Maybe that's what they THOUGHT they were doing. Whenever Japan tries to make games 'for the west' the result is always some patronizing crap.

My wife wanted a "beginner" JRPG, she'd already done Chrono Trigger, so she tried FF Mystic Quest because she had it when she was a kid. Found it quite boring because the combats are frequent, unavoidable, easy, and yet time consuming and unrewarding. It's just a bad combo.

I recommended her the Snes version of DQ1 instead. Even though that game has zero guidance or hand holding, she was hooked and binged through it in a weekend.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,353
Complexity these days is also as much what the player is doing as much as what the systems theoretically allow.

There may be a fair amount of buildcrafting and systems interaction in BG3, but the game also allows you to just swim in the options and pick random things you like to do without understanding what you are doing. You can throw barrels, throw people, cast spells. The difficulty is tuned low and so giving a lot of different options becomes a way to allow 'casual' sandbox play without feeling like you can't do what you want to do.

(Case in point that even in this case, one of the most frequent complaints is going to be "I can't hit anything".)
 

Elttharion

Learned
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
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I liked the game but I also think its heavily flawed. Its hard to muster the will to play a 40+ hours long story heavy JRPG just to experience a higher difficulty, especially when the combat is pretty shallow. Its a different story when I am playing a game I can finish in a few hours, like DMC or Bayonetta. They at least should had allowed players to use the hardest difficulty from the start. Older games had superbosses for people who wanted harder fights too, in this one even the hardest hunts are very easy, I only died once to a behemoth because of a one shot attack.

Another thing I disliked was how your powers pretty much never interact, you cant use earth to raise rocks and then switch to wind to throw then at enemies, or use fire and wind to creat a firestorm, etc. Things like that would be pretty cool and would make sense considering what makes Clive special is that he is the avatar he can use the powers of multiple Eikons.
 

Machocruz

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Jul 7, 2011
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Hyperborea
Stranger of Paradise is the FF game this should have been, this game's attention and praise is what it should have gotten. Job system, better customization, better combat, more challenging.
 

Jinn

Arcane
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Nov 8, 2007
Messages
5,506
Stranger of Paradise was awesome. If they would have had a slightly bigger budget to experiment with, ditched the Diablo loot shit, and had better level-design/didn't have a mission-based structure, it would have jettisoned it into god-teir action-RPG territory for me.
 
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Yuber

Educated
Joined
Aug 17, 2023
Messages
219
Stranger of Paradise is the FF game this should have been, this game's attention and praise is what it should have gotten. Job system, better customization, better combat, more challenging.

I wonder if they ever release a complete Edition on disc with all DLC inside, because that's what I am waiting for >.<
Don't wanna buy the game now and then it comes a few months later.
 

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