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X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Or you can give your game to Nixxes, who I hope will become the go-to company for making your game PC-worthy.
Nixxes are nothing special. They do a good job, to be fair, but looking at Deus Ex, it took petitions to get proper keybindings, FOV options added in, the ability to disable object highlights, etc. I'm sure they have some native PC gamers on their team, but I haven't seen much that suggests they are fundamentally smarter or better at what they do than any others (the only difference being that it's what they've been paid to do). Plus, partnering up with another developer is an added cost and not one that's convenient for everyone (or even most).

You're probably correct, but examples like these, of a small team of PC-centric developers almost single-handedly saving a game from mediocrity, are so rare.
Not even the huge-budgeted Skyrim team got it right, as you've so eloquently written about.

Talented or not, Nixxes have proven that they can get shit done, for an apparently unprohibitive cost.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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You're probably right, but examples like these, of a small team of PC-centric developers almost single-handedly saving a game from mediocrity, are so rare.
Not even the huge-budgeted Skyrim team could do it, as you've so eloquently written about.

Talented or not, Nixxes have proven that they can get shit done, for an apparently unprohibitive cost.
Think about this.

Eidos Montreal are making a game from scratch. They are taking an old engine and massively upgrading it in order to a) make it compatible with their new style of gameplay b) improve the tools for content creation c) make it look pretty. This is not a small task. On top of that, they are also building a huge (by today's standards) and highly detailed game that emphasizes player choices, multiple routes, etc. This is a gigantic task that most developers would try to shortcut (license Unreal, reuse art assets, etc.). Even without working on the game engine, Deus Ex is a bigger game than almost any other save for MMOs and full-on RPGs, and it has higher production values and expectations for quality, variety, etc. to boot.

Nixxes, meanwhile, have the prestigious job of a) setting up the PC controls b) getting the game to run smoothly on PC c) adding in DirectX 11 support and effects d) adding a few extra features and tinkering with the UI to get the game feeling more like a native PC game. Now, I don't want to discredit their work, because as I said I think the PC version of Human Revolution was quite good, but the fact is that even if they are a much smaller team, they also have a far smaller job. I don't purport to know the details of what they did, but somehow I doubt their undertaking was remotely comparable to the creation of the base game itself.

If you had switched their roles, with Eidos Montreal handling the port and Nixxes handling the main game, and had team sizes and budgets to account for that, would the result be any different? I don't know, maybe... but does that mean Eidos wouldn't do their research, get the game running smoothly and stably, and add in those extra features that fans were begging for?

Creating games is a business. While personal talent and ability does come into the equation (developers are teams of individuals, after all), if you are given a job to do like Nixxes were, unless they were flat-out incompetent I doubt the results would have been all that different. It's just too hard to say whether or not Nixxes "saved" Human Revolution on PC, because we don't know the details or how much of a labour of love it really was for them. For all we know, adding in an FOV option and DirectX 11 support was a mandate from the publishers, who were eager to please fans and felt it would increase sales (which it probably did). Who are the heroes in this scenario?

Going back to X-COM, I have a lot of faith in Firaxis. Say what you will about Civ V (whose problems were mostly on the design side and not the technical side), they know how to make PC games at the very least. The problem is they aren't making a PC game, at least not one that's necessarily native to the platform. If it was in their contract to do so, then I'm sure they'd love to make a UI and add all sorts of PC exclusive features... but at this stage, we just don't know exactly how it will turn out. I'm willing to bet, however, that the answer is "no." Honestly, though, it may not matter. You might have fallen in love with the X-COM interface, but that doesn't make it the best ever simply because you're so used to it. I highly doubt Firaxis would keep things identical even if it were a native PC game, simply because the needs of their game are different and conventions (which can't really be measured objectively) have changed.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
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bunch of crap
You can't make a good anything if you don't have judgement. Most of the problem with games is they substitute quality with quantity. Why hire 3 guys who have lots of experience to design and program stuff when we can hire 8 guys who write gamasutra articles about minigames and wouldn't know a good interface if it bit them on the ass. Why pay to keep the good/experienced guys when we can just burn them out and get more? We so smart.
Thank you for your compelling and detailed argument. I especially liked the part where you avoided replying to anything I actually said. It was a true pleasure. :salute:

Still, since you seem interested:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20111111/8866/Skyrim_or_How_Not_to_Make_a_PC_Game.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20111114/8890/User_Interface_Analysis_Skyrim.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20110926/8518/Observations_on_User_Interface_Design.php

But yeah, you're right, I haven't thought about user interface at all in the past. Ever, in fact.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And the obvious answer is NO, eidos would NOT make a good PC GUI ever. No one is left there who knows how. That was left unstated but I thought it was obvious.

In other news I just spent the afternoon thinking about being a world class guitarist. I am now a world class guitarist, hire me for your world class rock and roll orchestra, please.

What do you mean, "left there". Eidos Montreal is a new developer, they haven't made anything else.
 

mr.doo

Educated
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
68
A modern interface means a consolized interface, which almost always means it's complete shit.
If you want a more modern version of a very similar game there is silent storm. Guess what, the interface is a lot worse, and suffers from all the same "problems" that XCom does.

Navigate the map instantly - you've obviously never played this game. What a retarded comment. When an enemy enters LOS the game stops and you often get interrupt fire. When you select your character big red flashing numbers come up, then you click on them to go to your enemy.

It's so obvious that anyone complaining about a minimap hasn't even played the ficking game. It's not command and conquer. A typical turn means you position to enter a room. The next turn you clear the room. And so on until you find an enemy. Finding the enemy without dying is what you do, a minimap showing the enemies in red would completely destroy the game.

Who said anything about highlighting enemies in the minimap and unveiling their position ?
Also I did play the game, a lot in fact.
 

Monk

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So, you're "sick of replaying the original X-Com". Are you looking for something different?
Yes, you totally got it. I'm gonna play some Zelda now.

As for the rest of your points, just like for this one, I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or just blind. Either way if you don't see or refuse to see the decline in games complexity, it's not some random poster like me who's gonna open your eyes. I wouldn't want to anyway, shit wouldn't taste any better for me if you finally recognized it for what it is. I guess I'll keep my butthurt and you'll keep your simple mind. I envy you in a very condescending way...

You don't want to play the original because you're sick and tired of it, but you're butthurt over the remake based on initial info because it's not like the original.

It's been claimed that the original is close to perfect. If so, then obviously, any remake will be part of a peak or a decline. Even suggestions for improvement will be minor, which means you will also be sick of playing an improved version, too, as the differences between that and the original will be slight.

Given that, I hope you will understand what my question means. The "you" refers to thread participants in general, so please do not take this personally. Are you looking for something different? What type of Xcom game do you see will be significantly different from and better than the original? Does the idea of "games complexity" have something to do with this?
 

Monk

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He just can't see there's a difference between "different" and "fucking retarded" M:

Or a differences between "slightly different and updated" and "so fucking different the gameplay is nothing like the original".

This remake is obviously already in both the latter categories of each sentence above to anyone who has any sense and knows the original for shit. The only people defending it are guys like marobug who obviously can't into sanity.

So, you're looking for something that's only "slightly different and updated"? If so, why not consider the game mentioned by Haba? With that, it won't matter then what they do with this remake.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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It's been claimed that the original is close to perfect. If so, then obviously, any remake will be part of a peak or a decline. Even suggestions for improvement will be minor, which means you will also be sick of playing an improved version, too, as the differences between that and the original will be slight.?
Yes I would eventually be sick of playing another good X-Com game too, but that's not a "problem". I want a new game anyway. It's like with a band I love, I want a new album, I'm not gonna listen to the same one over and over, my whole life. And I don't understand your : "the first album was good, why would you want a new one, wouldn't it be more of the same ?". You sure must be perplexed by AC/DC fans. :)

As for the drop of complexity, I don't understand why you don't get the chess players being pissed at seeing their game turned into checkers. Neither do I get your constant : "checkers are good, they're turn based strategy, why the butthurt ?".

So basically, we don't understand each other it seems. Your lack of aggressivity seems to indicate genuine puzzlement so I'm sorry if I can't explain both the "want for more" and the 'being pissed at getting a dumbing down instead" any better, but I'm through trying to explain what is so obvious to me. Maybe someone else (not necessarily the user going with that name) will find better words.

In the meantime, I'll wait for Xenonauts, which indeed seems closer to the kind of game I want, thank God for independant devs and regret that the "big ones" constantly choose to dig up old franchises I love and turn them into a shadow of their former selves, instead of creating their own brand of shit.
 

Majestic47

Learned
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Nov 9, 2011
Messages
432
Yeah can't wait to have a modern ui and high res graphic. It seems like it's high time for a franchise update.
 

Mozgoëbstvo

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Of course there's butthurt over remake even if the first ones were already perfect. Because we'd like the same X-COM as before, only with inproved graphics and maybe terrain destruction - but only to make it even more deadly and tactical.

Is it too much to ask?

How about the one mentioned by Haba, i.e., Xenonauts?

Never tried or seen
 

Haba

Harbinger of Decline
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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
OK, the music is probably the least declined aspect of the game (compare that to say, Skrillex RAEP of Syndicate...). But after he starts talking about other stuff...

Yeah, the new improved muton:

ISuwd.png


diner610.jpg
 

GarfunkeL

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Insert clever insult here
Never realized how retarded Marobug and Drakron are. Ufo/X-Com GUI shitty? Maps so large that you get lost? Staying inside Skyranger trusting on reaction fire a viable tactic? :?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
OK, the music is probably the least declined aspect of the game (compare that to say, Skrillex RAEP of Syndicate...). But after he starts talking about other stuff...

Yeah, the new improved muton:

ISuwd.png


diner610.jpg

2gq0iE.gif
 

Peter

Arcane
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Jun 11, 2009
Messages
1,544
To be fair, the new Mutton does look more intimidating, if that's what they were going for, but yeah, the design is quite lame and deviates too much from the old one. Making it hunched over, roided out and Giger-like or something would've probably been a better solution than turning it into Bane.
 
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Uhm, I have played several hundred hours in the X-COM games, and had no problem learning it. But the interface is still clunky and not user friendly, refusing to see that because you are used to it is just being an aspie.

Yes, console compatible interfaces tend to make stupid concessions, but it doesn't have to be if they put some effort in it.

I work programming roof design software, and old user always want an interface exactly like the old one, even if you are 50 % more efficient in the new one. The argument's we have sound just like in this thread.

The decline is certainly not in the interface area in general, it's just dumbing down game-play systems, removing game-play difficulties and total focus on graphics.
 

Marobug

Newbie
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Sep 2, 2010
Messages
566
Never realized how retarded Marobug and Drakron are. Ufo/X-Com GUI shitty? Maps so large that you get lost? Staying inside Skyranger trusting on reaction fire a viable tactic? :?

You also think xcom has one of the best interfaces ever ? :lol:
If so you're not exactly in a good position to call anyone retard.
 

Redlands

Arcane
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Mar 23, 2008
Messages
983
Uh, you guys know there's a huge chasm in between "best UI evar" and "herp derp worst POS US", right?
 

GarfunkeL

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Insert clever insult here
Never realized how retarded Marobug and Drakron are. Ufo/X-Com GUI shitty? Maps so large that you get lost? Staying inside Skyranger trusting on reaction fire a viable tactic? :?

You also think xcom has one of the best interfaces ever ? :lol:
If so you're not exactly in a good position to call anyone retard.
Didn't say that. Just found your initial arguments retarded. Sure, GUI can always be improved upon but original UFO didn't need much in that department. And requiring a minimap so as not to get lost or because you didn't know there's an actual map that you can use to move the camera where ever on it... ;)
 

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