X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

[Infinitron]

Smaller map AND larger movement range = drastic change to gameplay

Basically having to fight is the only limit on your mobility now. Missions play more like Fallout (ie, they're effectively in real-time if you aren't engaged in a fight)

Actually, it could be a decent system for a relatively non-combat focused RPG.

 

[spectre]

I think that was the point. Higher mobility encourages flanking, counter-flanking (and as a side effect removes some of the tedium for moving pieces for 5 turns until they "get there"). Makes sense since they are obviously making it a game where piece positioning is the most important.
Big question is, will the AI be up for it and seize the initiative. Reduced map size means less complexity, which means somebody with decent AI programming skills can make wonders here.
It's the stuff like that that will make or break the game, not zomg grapplan hooks so lame?!!

 

[Gondolin]

Big question is, will the AI be up for it and seize the initiative. Reduced map size means less complexity, which means somebody with decent AI programming skills can make wonders here.

Do you honestly expect that?

 

[Infinitron]

Higher mobility encourages flanking, counter-flanking

I think being able to flank attack somebody within a single turn is taking things too far. It's a strategic maneuver, not a push-the-awesome-button "special ability".

 

[villain of the story]

I'm just surprised that there are interrupts at all.

Considering the ugly turd that is the latest JA game you might want to lower your expectations.

The sad thing is that JA: Bareback in Anus actually comes with very decent interface functionalities. The kind of useful stuff that should be standard in every squad level tactical game, especially regarding coordinating synchronised or serialised actions. It's just too bad that they had to go derp and call it JA and be then derp harder by nerfing it down to the point of negating the importance of strategy.

 

[spectre]

I think being able to flank attack somebody within a single turn is taking things too far. It's a strategic maneuver, not a push-the-awesome-button "special ability".

Yeah, that special ability which makes it possible to run then attack may be a bit too much. But if it is, it's a matter of balancing a single ability, not the whole system I think.
Overall, if the ailens are capable of the same it can result in an interesting chess-like gameplay where a single move can totally change the power balance across the board.

I am also curious how will fov fit into all this, because the vid shows diddly squat when it comes to this particular component.

I know, almost all of my ifs and buts depend on AI programming. And Firaxis has a track record of sucky AI for the CIV series, but it's hard to write a good AI for game with complex rules and field of play like CIV.
This looks a tad more simpler, so maybe they'll make it work, maybe not. If they do, they shall have my monies and the foreskin of my first-born as an offering for making a playabe tbs at this time and age.
If not, then fuck them. Modders will fix it IF they get the tools.

The sad thing is that JA: Bareback in Anus actually comes with very decent interface functionalities. The kind of useful stuff that should be standard in every squad level tactical game, especially regarding coordinating synchronised or serialised actions. It's just too bad that they had to go derp and call it JA and be then derp harder by nerfing it down to the point of negating the importance of strategy.

Sirius? I think only the sychronize actions functionality is worth any mention (unfortunately, it was hardly ever used), apart from that, Brigade E6 is miles ahead in the tactical interface department - seriously the thing has it all, and some of the functions are sadly missing in JA: BiAtch (time compression controls, shoot until killed command, showing time to complete action). However, button layout is atrcious. You have to move your mouse to the other side of the screen to get to important stuff (inventory & reloads).

 

[GarfunkeL]

One shotgun blast is enough to kill a Muton now?

I really don't see how spectre can be so optimistic about the game - tiny squads moving super-fast on tiny maps, with enemy AI that doesn't react to what happens to other aliens - notice how the Mutons were happily crouching around that corpse while the Sectoids were getting killed 20 meters away.

 

[spectre]

Well, if you read that post of mine you'll see I have the same concerns as you do. Minus the running thing maybe.

I'm willing to give Firaxis the benefit of the doubt, seeing how it clearly is some early beta build. The AI may not be in place just yet, sadly, it's usually the last thing they slap on these days.
Mind you still keeping in mind the recent Civ 5 disaster, so lard deliver if I ever get the idea to preorder this nor am I getting my demo from anywhere else than tpb.

Yeah, I emptied by bile gland over JA: BiAtch and I my standards went down a notch or two (especially if the stuff is supposed to be turn based).
Compared to incompetent hacks like BitComposer, Firaxis seem at least semi competent. And at least semi-likely to deliver something that is at least playable.
Maybe I shouldn't really compare the two.

 

[spectre]

Also, notice that what we've jerking off to here is essentially the same scripted sequence of events they showed to the press a month ago, the same soldier throws the same granade at the same friggin sectoid. If it is what I think it is (scripted promo material slapped together from an early beta build, maybe the tutorial sequence) then I don't think we can really use it to gauge what the AI will be like.

 

[villain of the story]

Experience tells me that there only two outcomes to scripted scenes used to demo the game: they either look too good and turn out to be bullshit that isn't in the game in any shape or form, or they look too crap and the game turns out to be just that: crap. And since this looks like crap, my money is on that it will be be crap.

 

[spectre]

Because when someone runs 100 yards they would get gunned down at least 10 times over.

Assuming there's somebody to do the gunning down part.
Guess what, that would be kinda what the overwatch thingie is used for. Fuck knows if it actually works because so far it looks like the aliens can't hit shit with their plasma boomsticks (which is a different problem by the way).
Also, you apparently can't run under suppressive fire.

In XCom just try running in the open. You lose a guy every time, and you can't move a quarter of that distance.

A recruit could move about 12 squares each turn in UFO (assuming lowest possible starting TUs and no difficult terrain along the way). I'm not gonna dick around pulling numbers out of my ass, but it was just about the in-game length of the large barn.
And that movement distance would only increase with each mission. What was the cap for TUs? 255?

So, what's really wrong about these running distances? Anybody bothered to check for some point of reference or do we carry on derping?
The longest one I saw on the video was when the shotgun chic ran to the hole in the building, the distance looked a bit more than the entire building's lenght.
Now, looking for some kind of in-game reference, that's about 5-6 (hard to gauge due to perspective) lengths of the in-game small car model.
Let's say it was 8 cars, because fuck that. That would give 40 meters max with a very, very generous margin. Convert to yards at own discretion.

But please, do enlighten me, what does the Xcom designer say? Is there a battlefield speed limit? You only get to run 24 meters each turn?
I didn't read too much of Gollop's interviews, but I think he was of an opinion that a smaller, more dynamic scale is actually better suited for tactical combat games.

 

[spectre]

Try to choke down your retarded outrage just because you are too dumb to see this game is shit.

What the fuck are you doing here then? If the game is shit, just forget about it and gtfo. Your opinion is decided and you don't need to get all butthurt that mine is different. I'm not forcing you to like the game, I'm not forcing you to buy it. Not sure if I'm going to do either myself.

I think the video is hardly conclusive to say if the game's shit but hey, feel free to have your own opinions based on imagined facts if that floats your boat.

so into the ignore list you go.

Coming from a troll alt, that's almost sounds like a complement.
Sorry to see a chum go butthurt like that. Still, good riddance mate.
That would be it then, but for the record;

As soon as one guy encounters an enemy the others race to nearby cover where they are invulnerable and then they take him out the next turn. It's impossible to lose a game like that.

No telling if they are invulnerable. We didn't see aliens using grenades or heavy weapons. But it's totally fair to assume they don't, right, because it wasn't shown on the video?

Let's see what I said. You would get gunned down ten times over. To fix that they make the enemies miss about 100% of the time, and make their guns do barely any damage.

Do tell, How do you know that their guns do barely any damage when they actually hit (I make a wild assumption that it does happen in the game)?

Sorry man but you are the one spewing out nonsense. A game like this is 100% about maneuvering. When you can race across the screen like that it's just a joke.

Running comes at a cost of losing initiative, because you cannot attack (at least in most cases), and it's logical to assume you cannot overwatch too, which seems like a fair deal, seeing how a lot can happen in one turn.
There seem to be many other factors limiting maneuverability, like overwatch and suppressive fire. Can't say how good the AI is in using them, though, what we did see is that can supress and overwatch, so they play at least some role.
Not to mention, on closer inspection it appears to me that running distance isn't that dramatic. If you wan't to actually do stuff, like overwatch or supress, you only get to move half that distance.

Yeah, that part when the scout chic waltzed past the overwatching sectoid was derp. I would definitely like to hear an explanation on that, was it luck? calculated risk? are sectoids intended poor shots? is it common occurrence? or was it just a pre-recorded script? Oh wait, I know. It means the game is shit.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

my prediction is that this will be unreasonably successful and get a bunch of fans who will proceed to defend it tooth and nail and say how shittily the first two x-coms have aged both in graphics and gameplay

also there will be a whole group of old x-com fans going "oh it's not an x-com sequel but it's a good game'

meanwhile the fps will end up like the syndicate one and nobody at all will be seen discussing it after it's released

 

[Thane Solus]

While i like some of the things i saw, by the time u see the Xbox Buttons u will scream in agony. One of the best PC games ever made, is now made for Xbox and the poorly ported to PC. Give me a Nuke please...

 

[Morgoth]

Why the fuck they didn't use their own engine (Civ 5 engine) and make it PC exclusive is an enigma to me.

I mean I see the point that publishers want to maximize profits and all, but this is a game type that console gamers don't give a shit about. Civ series sold very well for being PC exclusive (sans Revolution, which just sold average).

Even EA admitted that the C&C games on consoles bombed. Why even bother?

 

[Burning Bridges]

I think the video is hardly conclusive to say if the game's shit but hey, feel free to have your own opinions based on imagined facts if that floats your boat.

the voice of the perfect consumer

 

[Gord]

I think the video is hardly conclusive to say if the game's shit but hey, feel free to have your own opinions based on imagined facts if that floats your boat.

the voice of the perfect consumer

He has a point there. The info available so far is not providing a complete picture.
That won't stop some people from expressing their butthurt that the remake is not a 1:1 copy of the original with updated graphics (while there probably would be just as much if it was).
I'm not saying that it might not turn out to be shit, mind you. Just that some people readily like to jump to conclusions that fit their view of "modern" games in general.

 

[Burning Bridges]

saying what needs to be said, bro.
will preorder right away so I can rate the game fairly.

 

[Raghar]

I tried to find that video where they tested general walls against common weapons, but... As long as they have destructible environment, a cover is just a short term problem.

 

[commie]

I think the video is hardly conclusive to say if the game's shit but hey, feel free to have your own opinions based on imagined facts if that floats your boat.

the voice of the perfect consumer

He has a point there. The info available so far is not providing a complete picture.
That won't stop some people from expressing their butthurt that the remake is not a 1:1 copy of the original with updated graphics (while there probably would be just as much if it was).
I'm not saying that it might not turn out to be shit, mind you. Just that some people readily like to jump to conclusions that fit their view of "modern" games in general.

Oh for fucks sake: LOOK AT IT! It's going to be a fucking casual 'my first TB tactical' type game that will make the JA: BIA look like a worthy continuation of JA2.

Firaxis? What the fuck have they done since Civ 3(ok, maybe Civ 4 if I'm being generous)? Once they jumped on the Civ Revolutions consoletard boat in earnest, the results have been predictable. This is another cutesy, fucking easy going, time waster for the fucking tablet crowd, or do you people think they chose TB for their love of the originals and the PC's heritage as a TB platform?

 

[Gord]

I have looked at the videos.
So what? Pre-release PR bullshit showing early alpha versions. Might turn out to be anything.
Sorry, but I still don't feel like joining the butthurt circlejerk just yet.
Hey, it's pretty probable that it will turn out to be a dumbed down PoS in the end, but what I'm saying is that it's better to judge that once the game is actually released.

I tried to find that video where they tested general walls against common weapons, but... As long as they have destructible environment, a cover is just a short term problem.

A cover mechanic is no problem at all, if it's done right, i.e. A.I. flanking you, using grenades, or trying to destroy it etc.
There's plenty of good reason to put cover into a tactical game like this, but some people just seem to think cover=popamole.
Well, can't blame them, looking at what cover mechanics usually turn out to be in most 1st person shooters (then again, this isn't a fps we are talking about).
Still, again I would like to reserve my judgment until there's a more substantial amount of gameplay information available.

 

[Spectacle]

I have looked at the videos.
So what? Pre-release PR bullshit showing early alpha versions. Might turn out to be anything.
[...]
I would like to reserve my judgment until there's a more substantial amount of gameplay information available.

I used to think like that, but after being disappointed time and time again, I came to realize that if they're not supplying substantial gameplay information it's because there is no substantial gameplay, and if it looks and smells like popamole it's because it is popamole.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Oh for fucks sake: LOOK AT IT! It's going to be a fucking casual 'my first TB tactical' type game that will make the JA: BIA look like a worthy continuation of JA2.

Firaxis? What the fuck have they done since Civ 3(ok, maybe Civ 4 if I'm being generous)? Once they jumped on the Civ Revolutions consoletard boat in earnest, the results have been predictable. This is another cutesy, fucking easy going, time waster for the fucking tablet crowd, or do you people think they chose TB for their love of the originals and the PC's heritage as a TB platform?

small interjection: Civ 4: Colonization was actually darn good.

 

[commie]

Oh for fucks sake: LOOK AT IT! It's going to be a fucking casual 'my first TB tactical' type game that will make the JA: BIA look like a worthy continuation of JA2.

Firaxis? What the fuck have they done since Civ 3(ok, maybe Civ 4 if I'm being generous)? Once they jumped on the Civ Revolutions consoletard boat in earnest, the results have been predictable. This is another cutesy, fucking easy going, time waster for the fucking tablet crowd, or do you people think they chose TB for their love of the originals and the PC's heritage as a TB platform?

small interjection: Civ 4: Colonization was actually darn good.

I include that in the 'maybe Civ 4' bit, as it's as much a Civ 4 mod as anything else, but yeah that is a fine game in itself.

 

[Spectacle]

small interjection: Civ 4: Colonization was actually darn good.

Did they fix it with patches? I remember it being near completely broken at release?