Fun with Pierre Begue, creator of Knights of the Chalice

[Alex]

Maybe, but I suppose it is still better than never giving it a shot at all. I am not saying he is right (or wrong), just that this stuff isn't always as simple as "what gives me more money". Sometimes people are complicated.

Rake

I meant to say there that he isn't delusional in that he can keep selling his stuff only from his site.

 

[Gord]

Sometimes people are complicated.

True.
Although I wonder if there's more to it. Is he afraid of some kind of legal issues with WotC due to the system he uses, when getting too much exposure to KotC?

 

[Crooked Bee]

this stuff isn't always as simple as "what gives me more money". Sometimes people are complicated.

Judging from his own comments, I don't see his position as particularly complicated. He just wants his lesser known game to get a boost in sales, and use GOG's audience as a leverage for that...

 

[Stabwound]

He's free to do what he wants with his own work, but it's just completely ass-backwards to anyone looking at it from the outside. Then again, we're talking about someone who decided to spend time creating a 2nd-rate knockoff of a mid 90s RTS game, so the logic here is a little hard to digest.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sometimes people are complicated.

True.
Although I wonder if there's more to it. Is he afraid of some kind of legal issues with WotC due to the system he uses, when getting too much exposure to KotC?

Q: So I could make a game?

A: Sure. Remember though, you cannot use any Product Identity with the OGL or claim compatibility with anything. So you can't say your game is a d20 System game or uses D&D rules or call it Elminster's Undermountain Crawl.
...
In order to understand why Wizards of the Coast would create the Open Gaming License we need to start with primary principles. Marcus Aurelius said, "Of all things ask, what does it intrinsically do?" Dungeons & Dragons is a game, and in order for a game to fulfill its function it must be played. Yet one of the primary reasons people report leaving the hobby is because they can't find anyone to play with. To increase the chance of finding someone to play the game with, you need to increase the network of players. Previous D&D business strategy promoted the use of aggressive legal strategies to keep anyone from publishing work that might be compatible with Dungeons & Dragons. In hindsight, this approach only encouraged players to create new game systems for their genres. As a result, new players brought in through those game systems were playing a game that was incompatible with the D&D system, which fragmented the paper-based roleplaying game genre.

The open gaming license (OGL) says, in a nutshell, that you can create any product you want using the core D&D mechanic (what we call the d20 system). You can change any rule you want, you can add any rule you want, you can cover any subject you want. The only thing that you can't do is keep anyone else from using the D&D rules you used or anything you derived from those rules. In other words, you can play with the blocks but you can't tell someone else that they can't play with the blocks as well. In exchange, you don't owe Wizards any money, and Wizards has no approval over your product

What does Wizards get out of this deal? In addition to expanding the network of D&D players, we also created a little trademarked "bug" (logo you can put on products) called "d20." We own this little logo. We get to say who uses this logo and what they can and can't do if they want to use this logo. What this logo means is, "This product is made with the d20 rules system." Everyone in the gaming community has seen this logo and can now identify it, so it has recognition value.

If you want to put this logo on your product, there are some basic ground rules, a few things you must and must not do. You must point people to the Player's Handbook, you must not present character creation rules, and you must use the basic terms of the d20 rules system unchanged (for example, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). Now, just to be clear: You don't have to use the d20 logo on your product.You can simply use the Open Gaming License and ignore the whole d20 logo issue. But so far everyone who has produced a game has felt that the d20 logo is valuable enough to adhere to the few d20 rules.

 

[tuluse]

Maybe, but I suppose it is still better than never giving it a shot at all. I am not saying he is right (or wrong), just that this stuff isn't always as simple as "what gives me more money". Sometimes people are complicated.

Rake

I meant to say there that he isn't delusional in that he can keep selling his stuff only from his site.

He's delusional because he thinks he should have *all* the control in selling his product on a portal. Gog doesn't want to sell bots, they do want to sell kotc. They're probably willing to work with him on how they sell kotc. That's not giving up all control. It's reaching an agreement where you sell something you've made in someone else's store. This has been how selling things has worked for like 200 years.

He's delusional because he actually thought anyone would want to play bots.

He's delusional because he thought he could somehow make gog sell his shitty game no one wants, and not sell his good game people do want.

 

[Alex]

this stuff isn't always as simple as "what gives me more money". Sometimes people are complicated.

Judging from his own comments, I don't see his position as particularly complicated. He just wants his lesser known game to get a boost in sales, and use GOG's audience as a leverage for that...

What I am trying to say is that complaining about not having enough money, while not doing the best decisions from the economical standpoint, isn't necessarilly weird. Or at least any more weird than people are generally. I think a better approach to this would be trying to understand: 1. Why did he create BotS in first place? I mean, I understand he was going for a smaller project that could be reused (in part) with KotC 2 stuff. But did he think it would sell better than KotC? Did he publish it mostly because of monetary reasons? If so,why did he think it would sell better than it did? If not, what does he see in BotS that makes it worth his time? Perhaps he thinks strategy is all about positioning,m so a strategy game with a single unit would be fun.

In other words, if we are to criticize his decisions toward game making, we really need to understand why he took them in first place.

tuluse

I don't really think he thought he could force GoG to sell BotS alone. I get the feeling he thought he could get them to sell it by offering KotC. They don't seem interested in that, and he doesn't seem interested in selling KotC only, so they don't do business.

 

[Infinitron]

I should point out that Pierre hasn't actually concluded his negotiations with GOG yet. Everything is still up in the air.

I hope we haven't fucked it up.

 

[Gragt]

Would that really change much? If he really wants more money to develop KotC2, why not start by selling KotC to a wider audience? It would also have the added bonus to also raise anticipation and public awareness for KotC2. And maybe if KotC does well he could even try to work out a deal to sell BotS on GOG later if that is still so important to him.

While understanding the reasoning behind a bad decision may prove informative, most of the time you don't need to know it to see that a bad decision is a bad decision.

 

[Excidium]

Sometimes people are complicated.

True.
Although I wonder if there's more to it. Is he afraid of some kind of legal issues with WotC due to the system he uses, when getting too much exposure to KotC?

Stop fantasizing about OGL issues...

 

[Gragt]

I hope we haven't fucked it up.

You wish.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)
While understanding the reasoning behind a bad decision may prove informative, most of the time you don't need to know it to see that a bad decision is a bad decision.

It would help us understand what he sees as bad or good.

 

[tuluse]

Would that really change much? If he really wants more money to develop KotC2, why not start by selling KotC to a wider audience? It would also have the added bonus to also raise anticipation and public awareness for KotC2. And maybe if KotC does well he could even try to work out a deal to sell BotS on GOG later if that is still so important to him.

While understanding the reasoning behind a bad decision may prove informative, most of the time you don't need to know it to see that a bad decision is a bad decision.

Getting more people to play kotc could even cause more bots sales.

 

[Alex]

Would that really change much? If he really wants more money to develop KotC2, why not start by selling KotC to a wider audience? It would also have the added bonus to also raise anticipation and public awareness for KotC2. And maybe if KotC does well he could even try to work out a deal to sell BotS on GOG later if that is still so important to him.

While understanding the reasoning behind a bad decision may prove informative, most of the time you don't need to know it to see that a bad decision is a bad decision.

Getting more people to play kotc could even cause more bots sales.

That is, I suspect, part of the issue. I get the feeling he wanted BotS to sell on its own merits. Of course, I could be really wrong here. I am just going from the thing about him wanting to put that game for sale in GoG while leaving KotC out of the deal.

 

[Crooked Bee]

1. Why did he create BotS in first place?

Because he thought it would sell and let him earn some money for KotC2 development. That much is clear from his previous and current posts.

That didn't work out though.

If so,why did he think it would sell better than it did?

Because he thought turn-based RPGs are more niche than RTSs. Which is true... if your RTS is good enough and has high enough production values.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Or it comes down to people being entitled and wanting all their games for nearly nothing, no matter if it is financially viable for those who take big loans and all the risk for it.

 

[tuluse]

No one has said anything about price. Pierre himself hasn't said anything about price. So where do you get that idea from?

 

[Crooked Bee]

There, fixed it for you!

P.S. I paid $25 or smth like that for KotC and you're still full of shit!

 

[Cosmo]

HHR being full of shit ?! Where did you get such an outlandish notion ?

 

[Gragt]

It's not like BotS isn't already as cheap as the cheapest games on GOG already, excluding their free games of course.

Also he wrote a book on libertarian marxism where he encourages people to tell their kids that death is meaningless.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

No one has said anything about price. Pierre himself hasn't said anything about price. So where do you get that idea from?

Making games available on GOG or Steam, also means putting a lot of pressure down on prices, and conforming to extravagant sales with huge discounts. I remember before Jeff Vogel put his games on Steam, I read countless people who didn't want to pay $20 or $25 for a game on his site because they kept saying it was too much. In what kind of world do we live if we get scandalized at a game that is polished and full of content that sells for $25? Playing the games of the digital curators only gives digital curators more power, perpetuates the race to the bottom cycle, and it's we who get worse products in the end.

Many indie games are good, but most fall way short of their potential, simply there's not enough money to implement what the developpers want.

 

[Alex]

1. Why did he create BotS in first place?

Because he thought it would sell and let him earn some money for KotC2 development. That much is clear from his previous and current posts.

I heard about that too, but what I meant is, is it solely a for money thing, or did he want to create some kind of specific game.

That didn't work out though. He should just let it go, really, and let GOG sell KotC and be done with it.

Well, I guess you could call the desire to see this or that game of yours sell, or become known, ego. But if so, why is it any worse a reason than money?

Because he thought turn-based RPGs are more niche than RTSs. Which is true... if your RTS is good enough and has high enough production values.

I think it is a little more than unfair to jump to this kind of conclusion without Pierre here to defend himself.

They don't seem interested in that, and he doesn't seem interested in selling KotC only

The question is, why?

Why do you think he would be interested in putting KotC on a "portal" if there was no BotS in first place?

 

[Jashiin]

No one has said anything about price. Pierre himself hasn't said anything about price. So where do you get that idea from?

Making games available on GOG or Steam, also means putting a lot of pressure down on prices, and conforming to extravagant sales with huge discounts. I remember before Jeff Vogel put his games on Steam, I read countless people who didn't want to pay $20 or $25 for a game on his site because they kept saying it was too much. In what kind of world do we live if we get scandalized at a game that is polished and full of content that sells for $25? Playing the games of the digital curators only gives digital curators more power, perpetuates the race to the bottom cycle, and it's we who get worse products in the end.

Many indie games are good, but most fall way short of their potential, simply there's not enough money to implement what the developpers want.

people who buy your game for 5 bucks who would never have bought it at 30 bucks are still 5 bucks more than 0.

 

[Tigranes]

I actually think Pierre is nuttier than Cleve. At least Cleve works on a game that his audience thinks is good/promising. Although I suppose after 17(18 now?) years on Grimoire his next title could be Grimcraft: The Age of Empires.

 

[Darth Roxor]

People who've never heard about your game are more likely to buy it for 5 bucks once they hear about it on a major site, than they are to buy it for 30 bucks when they don't hear about it.