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Fun with Pierre Begue, creator of Knights of the Chalice

Castanova

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This whole thing makes me said because I get the distinct feeling that even if he successfully finished KotC 2 it's going to end up being a huge disappointment. It really does seem like he doesn't understand how good KotC was while simultaneously failing to understand how bad BotS was which means, basically, he's the luckiest fucker to ever luckbox a lucky classic game. This also means he'd have to multiply that luck by a million bazillion in order for KotC 2 to be even just as good as the original, let alone better.
Maybe he knew what he was doing, and he just doesn't like it so much. Maybe you can make good games without having a burning passion for them, just knowledge. Or maybe he wants to try different things and he is angry because the fans want only KotC and sequels.

You hinted at a plausible explanation. That is, he thinks KotC is fatally flawed and therefore: (a) he's making KotC 2 solely to fix all the problems and (b) he doesn't want ONLY KotC on GoG because he doesn't particularly like the game he made. However, he's still retarded because that means he believes BotS is BETTER than KotC (since he's pushing for it to be on GoG). Plus, why would he name the game KotC 2 if he's embarrassed by the first one?
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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Nah, I doubt he is embarassed by KotC. I guess it's just that he spent years and a lot of work on BotS and now, given that it pretty much flopped entirely, all that work seems wasted. It's understandable that that upsets him.
But hey, I told him what to do all these years ago and he didn't listen.
VoD said:
..., opting for shorter-term goals (i.e. improving the game step by step, adding an additional race or class, improve the graphics a bit etc and focusing on releasing a new game once or better twice a year - the "Vogel way" which has been proven to be successful, as opposed to planning an epic scope game that will take many years to finish with a full construction set a la NWN to boot!) ...
 
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You'd think he had developed some sense when he cut the game's price in half some time ago. Even Jeff Vogel the king of autistic CRPG developers put his games for peanuts on Steam and is probably making more money than ever. I don't know how special you need to be to deny a digital distribution deal with GOG, cause the GOG community alone would shower him in money.
 

Infinitron

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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/07/17/interview-jeff-vogel-on-bundles-graphics-and-pessimism/

Vogel: I think the demand has always been there, but I just didn’t have a big enough microphone. Single player story-driven RPGs are one of the oldest, most beloved, evergreen computer game genres. The biggest frustration for me, over the years, is that I’ve known there are hordes out there who wanted to at least try my games, but I didn’t have the PR muscle to reach them. Steam changed everything for everyone. It certainly changed my life.
 

Gragt

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This whole thing makes me said because I get the distinct feeling that even if he successfully finished KotC 2 it's going to end up being a huge disappointment. It really does seem like he doesn't understand how good KotC was while simultaneously failing to understand how bad BotS was which means, basically, he's the luckiest fucker to ever luckbox a lucky classic game. This also means he'd have to multiply that luck by a million bazillion in order for KotC 2 to be even just as good as the original, let alone better.

It is surprising how many succesful people in the creative fields do not understand what made them succesfull in the first place. They are obviously talented people who produced good or even great work, but they do not really understand what exactly made it great. KotC is a pretty good game as far as first games go, and even more impressive when you consider it has been made by mostly one guy. It has flaws but also undeniable qualities and it is only natural to hope the sequel will improve things. Yet with time I start to think that Begue mostly got lucky, and this recent event helps support that he is somehow disconnected from the realities of game development.

KotC succeeded in bringing back a kind of game that no one has been interested in making for years now, and it did it by emulating many of the features you find in those games, not only in the gameplay but also stylistic elements like the interface, the pixely graphism, the MIDI music, the viewpoint, etc. This contributed to give the game a nice retro feel that fitted its low budget origins. But those stylistic choices also included the font, which was very reminiscent of games published a decade ago and very uncomfortable to read, and Begue only changed it after enough people complained about it. We know of the wan argument that turn-based is a relic of the past that was used only because of technological limitations, but the use of a pixelated and hard-to-read font is something different that can be avoided nowadays simply for the sake of readability—remember the font used in Darklands? And this makes me think that Begue got lucky because he made a game the way they used to make then before and tried to copy their design as much as possible, down to the style.

I'm definitely not saying that the man has no talent, because he does and so many things could have gone wrong during the development so KotC is not a mere fluke that could have happened to anyone, but Begue seems oblivious to what made his game good. That after KotC he went on to make BotS, a RTS inspired by yet another old classic compounds my opinion, but in the case of BotS the genre has kept evolving in an overall much more satisfactory way than RPGs, making this project very dated from the very start. That he tries to push it instead of KotC, which is pretty much his flagship and the reason we're discussing him now, is even more proof that he doesn't get why KotC got so much praise.

Ah well, and to think Charles-cgr's Sword and Sorcery Underworld was turned down by GOG …
 

Castanova

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Gragt, I think you've just put forward the characterization of Pierre that feels most plausible. And it's nice because your characterization provides for at least a bit of hope that KotC 2 will be good, too. All he has to do is copy the right old-school mechanics again!
 

Grunker

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It is surprising how many succesful people in the creative fields do not understand what made them succesfull in the first place. They are obviously talented people who produced good or even great work, but they do not really understand what exactly made it great. Star Wars is a pretty good film series as far as first films go, and even more impressive when you consider it has been thought out by mostly one guy. It has flaws but also undeniable qualities and it is only natural to hope the sequel will improve things. Yet with time I start to think that Lucas mostly got lucky, and this recent event helps support that he is somehow disconnected from the realities of film making.
Yep, sounds about right.
 

Gragt

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It is surprising how many succesful people in the creative fields do not understand what made them succesfull in the first place. They are obviously talented people who produced good or even great work, but they do not really understand what exactly made it great.THX-1138 is a pretty good film as far as first films go, and even more impressive when you consider it has been thought out by mostly one guy. It has flaws but also undeniable qualities and it is only natural to hope the sequel will improve things. Yet with time I start to think that Lucas mostly got lucky, and this recent event helps support that he is somehow disconnected from the realities of film making.
Yep, sounds about right.

:smug:
 
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At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today. I also don't like how increasingly arrogant some curators are behaving.

Sometimes you have a niche and you make more money by selling the game yourself, cutting out the middleman. Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames, just like a very small dedicated fanbase will care about a faithful, graphically poor replication of DnD 3.5 rules.
 

Lhynn

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At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today. I also don't like how increasingly arrogant some curators are behaving.

Sometimes you have a niche and you make more money by selling the game yourself, cutting out the middleman. Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames, just like a very small dedicated fanbase will care about a faithful, graphically poor replication of DnD 3.5 rules.
Cant argue with results tho.
 

Crooked Bee

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At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today. I also don't like how increasingly arrogant some curators are behaving.

Sometimes you have a niche and you make more money by selling the game yourself, cutting out the middleman. Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames, just like a very small dedicated fanbase will care about a faithful, graphically poor replication of DnD 3.5 rules.

That's all fine and dandy, except it doesn't apply to niche CRPGs, as Jeff Vogel's example shows. Because a cut of the profits is objectively well worth the exposure your game gets on platforms like GOG or Steam, and according to VD's earlier posts they don't impose any other terms on you at all.

Do you really believe GOG is acting "arrogant"? Or that it doesn't allow the devs to "make good money to make good games"? I'd argue it's the opposite, actually.

I'm also not 100% positive Matrix Games wouldn't do even better on GOG. In fact, it'd be interesting to see the results if they tried.
 
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Jeff Vogel himself said Steam imposed him to sell his game to $9.99, so that's not true. Also, outside of Exile, Vogel never made games with very complex rules, they were always very mainstream-friendly. KOTC is a much stricter interpretation of DnD rules.

And do you really think $9.99 is viable to make a business model with more than 2-3 guys in a garage? This is what I am talking about, the continuing devaluation of games, especially mid-tier ones.

Matrix makes their money by selling for much more than that to a select few dedicated fans, something they would lose with portals, that would just flood out the exposure their game would get anyway. Vogel himself says that: dedicated fans will be glad to pay more for your game.
 

TripJack

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At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today.
good one bro

you of course forget to mention that all of the companies that made those 'much better' games are now bankrupt husks owned by EA and other shitlord collectives
:dance:

Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames
no it's actually because matrix is run by incompetents who don't know how to make money
 

Grunker

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Didn't he have some licence issues with KoTC and D&D? Maybe that's why he is trying to sweep it under the rug.

If he did it's news to me. Everything he used was OGL, so he shouldn't have.

I recall reading something along the lines that the OPL didnt apply to video games.

Then you would have read wrongly. OGL/SRD is open for use. However OGL/SRD only includes rules, not fluff/characters/art/tables.

I'm pretty sure KotC is well within the legal boundaries however, and I've never heard of Wizards complaining.
 

Crooked Bee

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Jeff Vogel himself said Steam imposed him to sell his game to $9.99, so that's not true.

VD's said Steam didn't impose any hard price restrictions on AoD, iirc. Am I remembering that right, Vault Dweller?

Also, outside of Exile, Vogel never made games with very complex rules, they were always very mainstream-friendly. KOTC is a much stricter interpretation of DnD rules.

And do you really think $9.99 is viable to make a business model with more than 2-3 guys in a garage? This is what I am talking about, the continuing devaluation of games, especially mid-tier ones.

Um,

1. KotC is just one person, so your "2-3 guys comment" applies to that how exactly? I guess I can agree with you about mid-tier studios, but this particular topic is about KotC so your comment doesn't really apply.

And then again I wouldn't be so sure about middle-sized studios either -- that all depends on the popularity of the game in question.

2. KotC rules aren't that complex and in my experience, the audience for Vogel's games overlaps with the potential KotC audience a lot. I'm mostly judging from SA and NeoGaf here, but both kinds of games are played by ppl who enjoy "oldschool CRPGs"; level of complexity isn't the most decisive factor here. Plus KotC is relatively accessible; it's only got a handful of classes and doesn't take a lot of time to master.

Matrix makes their money by selling for much more than that to a select few dedicated fans, something they would lose with portals, that would just flood out the exposure their game would get anyway. Vogel himself says that: dedicated fans will be glad to pay more for your game.

...And yet Vogel agreed to Steam sales and stuffies. I'm sure a lot of people would like to try out Matrix Games' titles if they were more affordable. Of course, only actually trying that out would tell, but Vogel was initially of the same attitude as Matrix and look where he's at now.
 

Vault Dweller

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At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today.
good one bro

you of course forget to mention that all of the companies that made those 'much better' games are now bankrupt husks owned by EA and other shitlord collectives
:dance:

Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames
no it's actually because matrix is run by incompetents who don't know how to make money
At least there is one person who objects to the perpetual race to the bottom model where the feudal digital overlords have all the power. I'm not sure why everyone cheers for it, you need to make good money to make games. Games were much better when you put $40-$50 of 80s dollars than when you buy them in a bundle or in a 80%+ discount on Steam today.
good one bro

you of course forget to mention that all of the companies that made those 'much better' games are now bankrupt husks owned by EA and other shitlord collectives
:dance:

Why doesn't Matrix Games release all of their catalogue on Steam? Because only a very small, dedicated fanbase will care about complex 2d wargames
no it's actually because matrix is run by incompetents who don't know how to make money

And it happened because of the growing costs of making games, especially the advent of multimedia and CD-ROM which made bigger budgets mandatory. Today we know it is not a panacea.

When there is that high of a barrier of entry and enjoying a product demands a very significant time and mental investment, it is never going to be that popular, especially when the production values are non existent.
 

Regvard

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Didn't he have some licence issues with KoTC and D&D? Maybe that's why he is trying to sweep it under the rug.

If he did it's news to me. Everything he used was OGL, so he shouldn't have.

I recall reading something along the lines that the OPL didnt apply to video games.

Then you would have read wrongly. OGL/SRD is open for use. However OGL/SRD only includes rules, not fluff/characters/art/tables.

I'm pretty sure KotC is well within the legal boundaries however, and I've never heard of Wizards complaining.

There has been some confusion about how these licenses are applied to software. We will attempt to clarify the major sticking points. This FAQ assumes you have read and are reasonably familiar with the Open Game License, the d20 System Trademark License, and the d20 System Trademark Guide.

Q: Can the licenses be used with software?

A: Yes, both licenses can be used with software. However, several sections of the licenses require a bit more work to properly implement in software than they do in printed material and the d20 License has restrictions specific to software.

Q: How can the OGL be used with software?

A: Just like with other material, the OGL allows you to use any Open Content, provided you follow the terms of the OGL. Follow the requirements of the License, include the text of the license and the appropriate copyright information, and clearly identify Open Content.

NOTE: The biggest problem we've found with software and the OGL is that programmers aren't paying attention to Section 8 of the OGL. Section 8 states: ñIf you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Content.î This doesn't mean you can say ñall rules in my program are Openî, the users need to be able to see all that Open Content. You can do this by putting Open Content in a format that is easy to understand. Popular solutions have been to place everything in text files that the program pulls info from, having everything in a viewable database within the software, using Java script on a webpage (viewing the source of the webpage will display the code and Java script is relatively easy for a user to interpret). The key is that the user has to see everything that is Open Content that the program uses and be able to understand it without too much effort. The whole point of the OGL is that once information is declared Open everyone has free access to it under the OGL. Compiling that information into a program denies the user that access and violates the spirit of the Open Gaming License.

Q: So what kinds of programs can I make with the OGL?

A: Anything. Character generators are popular, as are programs that help GMs keep track of their adventure. Random treasure generators are also fun.

Q: So I could make a game?

A: Sure. Remember though, you cannot use any Product Identity with the OGL or claim compatibility with anything. So you can't say your game is a d20 System game or uses D&D rules or call it ñElminster's Undermountain Crawl.î

Q: What is different if I use the d20 System License?

A: In addition to following all the rules of the OGL for any Open Content you use, the d20 System Guide doesn't let you describe the process for creating a character, describe the process for applying experience to a character, and cannot be an interactive game.

NOTE: Please pay attention to the section of the license that prohibits a Covered Product from being an interactive game. It is not enough to say your product isn't a game; the license gives a definition for what is considered to constitute an interactive game.

"Interactive Game": means a piece of software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users.

This includes the obvious examples of attacking in combat, saving throws, and skill checks, but also includes dice rolling for character ability scores and hit points and rolling for damage. Why? Because in the d20 System a higher number is almost always better. Rolling an 18 for strength is obviously a preferable outcome to rolling a 3. In any circumstance where one outcome is quantifiably better than another is considered by Wizards to be an indication of success or failure; the software cannot perform these kinds of operations without breaching the license.

Q: Why can't I use those things in my program?

A: No d20 System Product can include rules for character creation or applying experience. In exchange for using the d20 logo you are prohibited from making a product that replaces the core rulebooks. Covered Products supplement the core rulebooks; they may not replace them. That is why all Covered Products must state that they require the use of the core rules.

The interactive game restriction exists because Wizards has an exclusive licensee for all interactive games. Authorizing other parties to make electronic games would violate the exclusive terms of that license.

Q: If I can't describe character creation and applying experience how can I still make a character generator?

A: You provide the users with the building blocks of the character, you don't tell them what to do with those blocks. A user familiar with the core rules will be able to use the program, while one who isn't will have difficulty. Any documentation you provide has to walk a fine line between explaining how to use the program and avoiding explaining how to create a character.

Q: Do I still need all that copyright info and stuff that goes on the covers of a book when I make software?

A: Yes, you do. Usually this is put in a pop-up window that displays when the software is opened and/or in the help or about files.

Q: Can I include non-Open Content if I implement some kind of protection, like requiring the user type word 3 from page 21?

A: No, regardless of the protection scheme you use Wizards considers any unauthorized use of our products to be copyright infringement. Furthermore, we do not feel that this kind of protection mechanism is sufficiently secure.

To conclude, here is a quick checklist of things to do when using the licenses with software:

1 - Decide if you are going to use the d20 System License (allows you to claim compatibility with D&D and to use the d20 Logo). If you use the d20 License remember what you can't do (describe the process for creating a character, meet the definition of an interactive game, etc.)

2 - Make sure Open Content is in a form where the user can see it all. Clearly identify all Open Content and Product Identity.

3 - Include the complete text of the OGL and update Section 15 with the copyright information appropriate with the Open Content you are using.

4 - If you're using the d20 License include the relevant mandatory trademark notices and other required text blocks.

....


I can't tell if the game is in violation without installing it again though.
 
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Dude...FFS. All you need to do is include all disclaimers and shit and provide the OGL content in-game.
 
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Um,

1. KotC is just one person, so your "2-3 guys comment" applies to that how exactly? I guess I can agree with you about mid-tier studios, but this particular topic is about KotC so your comment doesn't really apply.

And then again I wouldn't be so sure about middle-sized studios either -- that all depends on the popularity of the game in question.

2. KotC rules aren't that complex and in my experience, the audience for Vogel's games overlaps with the potential KotC audience a lot. I'm mostly judging from SA and NeoGaf here, but both kinds of games are played by ppl who enjoy "oldschool CRPGs"; level of complexity isn't the most decisive factor here. Plus KotC is relatively accessible; it's only got a handful of classes and doesn't take a lot of time to master.

Matrix makes their money by selling for much more than that to a select few dedicated fans, something they would lose with portals, that would just flood out the exposure their game would get anyway. Vogel himself says that: dedicated fans will be glad to pay more for your game.

...And yet Vogel agreed to Steam sales and stuffies. I'm sure a lot of people would like to try out Matrix Games' titles if they were more affordable. Of course, only actually trying that out would tell, but Vogel was initially of the same attitude as Matrix and look where he's at now.

It's not really one person, he had other contractors too. And he doesn't live off that, it's only something he does as a hobby after work. What about most people who don't have a luxury? How is an industry that cannot provide people with a livable wage sustainable in any way? It just isn't.

Almost all the Kickstarted projects not from very big names are either: 1-not meeting their goals 2-forcing the developers to live at poverty levels 3-from second or third world countries 4-revealed months after to need more funds

KoTC has very limited graphics and the combat is much more complex in comparison to anything Jeff Vogel has ever made. There definitely is a divide, perhaps not one as big as with Avernum, but one nonetheless.
 

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