Fun with Pierre Begue, creator of Knights of the Chalice

[Tigranes]

I think the collective process of writing that document should be undertaken in the form of a treave mini-LP.

 

[cherry blossom]

Oh so GOG isn't interested in his magnum opus, but the other, bastard child of a game, KOTC? What a horror, how dare they. GOG should consider themselves lucky that Pierre didn't demand the youngest and the prettiest daughter of GOG staff for marriage.

Pierre got quite an entitlement issue going on that he needs to solve but he needs to get his ass out of his ass, first.

Nobody's played it.

I played the demo. It's not even half as good as Dune (1992). If Pierre time-travelled back to 1992, just before the release of Dune, he might have scored some steal-sales but even when you disregard the fact that it is an insignificant and mediocre game, the genre has moved the fuck on since then. I would rather play Dune again. In fact, any average RTS from early 90s is likely to offer more character and entertainment than Pierre's Battle of the Sands. It's not even a retro modern but, as Gragt put it, just a poor derivative of the games of early RTSs.

At some point, a person needs to man the fuck up to see the truth for what it is.

Now I wonder if the quality of KOTC was rather accidental and if so, what it speaks for the prospects of KOTC2 being as good if not better.

 

[cherry blossom]

The real question is why more indie companies don't do collector's edition products.

The question is why someone basically with no money doesn't risk even more on his product by producing something even less likely to sell? Yeah, that's a real question indeed.

A "collector's edition product" need not be some super-expensive physical product.

I think J1M's general idea, that indies need to become more capable at price discrimination, is a solid one.

Actually, Steam sales already function as a system for price discrimination, but the problem is that the price shift only goes in one direction - downwards.

I wonder how something like this would work: for some indie games with a promising look to it and some community following around it, the developer raised the price post-release at certain intervals. Not early-access or anything like that but the complete, finished and polished game, except the developer says that he will increase the price by $2.5 for every 500/1000/2500/5000/10000 copies that sells and so you are better off if you buy early and he adds that the only discount the game will ever see during a sale, if at all, will merely pull it back to the original price without the inflation.

 

[Mastermind]

bots would be a decent game if it had more than 1 unit and 5 buildings.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You know what? Fuck this guy. I don't even want KotC 2 any more. I hope some other guy rips off KotC, throws up a kickstarter, and steals his entire fanbase overnight. He'd deserve the sales more than this asshat who can't recognize quality in his own fucking game.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

An example I could name is the Amnesia developers, who were saying on their blog they were still at below poverty level wages, and that's with subsidies from the Swedish government.

You know HHR, this won't become true no matter how many times you repeat it. It's time to find another angle, bro.

 

[TigerKnee]

Confession: I don't even think KoTC was as good as people are always making it out to be.

It's funny to see people just having doubts now about KoTC 2. I liked the design docs that he posted on his site, but even WAY back in the past I thought he was biting off more than he can chew considering what I felt about KoTC.

 

[Lhynn]

Confession: I don't even think KoTC was as good as people are always making it out to be.

It's funny to see people just having doubts now about KoTC 2. I liked the design docs that he posted on his site, but even WAY back in the past I thought he was biting off more than he can chew considering what I felt about KoTC.

KoTC is a game made by a single dude on his basement that has better combat than any RPG in the last 10 years, how the fuck is that not a big deal?

 

[TigerKnee]

KoTC is a game made by a single dude on his basement that has better combat than any RPG in the last 10 years, how the fuck is that not a big deal?

It really isn't an accomplishment to have "better combat than any RPG in the last 10 years". As for the whole "done by a single person" thing... no, making something like a balanced Fighting Game that doesn't look terrible with only one person would be an accomplishment. Combat-Centric RPGs, not really.

 

[FeelTheRads]

that doesn't look terrible

Yeah, somehow I knew this was going to be your reason. "Shitty" graphics -> game sucks.

 

[TigerKnee]

Yeah, somehow I knew this was going to be your reason. "Shitty" graphics -> game sucks.

Not really. It's just one of the factors that goes with the "RPG fans don't really have very high standards for their games."

And PB didn't even create his own system for the game, he's using an already established system. He doesn't even seem to really grasp the flaws and balacing issues of the system, seeing as how he left vanilla Fighters as-is in KoTC1 in a D&D game that goes up to high levels (and he needed some help with some of the changes he made in KoTC2 judging from the forum posts).

edit: Just to clarify: if you make something like a fighting game, you need to have the technical aspects extremely tight ALONG with having graphics that are considered "good." Fighting games fans have a ridiculous high standard when it comes to games that they patronize which leads to terrible practices like DLC character because the cost/reward ratio of making these are really low.

If you make a wargame, you definitely need to have the gameplay down pat, while you probably don't need good graphics, so I'll give them around "mid-high" standards for its fans.

RPG fans don't need good graphics, and they don't even seem to need good gameplay at times, considering most of the time, RPG combat is degenerate and "solved" easily with a handful of classes or spells dominant. Most strategy game won't get away with having dominant strategies like that.

 

[octavius]

KoTC is a game made by a single dude on his basement that has better combat than any RPG in the last 10 years, how the fuck is that not a big deal?

It really isn't an accomplishment to have "better combat than any RPG in the last 10 years". As for the whole "done by a single person" thing... no, making something like a balanced Fighting Game that doesn't look terrible with only one person would be an accomplishment. Combat-Centric RPGs, not really.

Then why aren't more such CRPGs made? There is clearly a niche market for them.

 

[TigerKnee]

Then why aren't more such CRPGs made? There is clearly a niche market for them.

Beats me, maybe people just don't feel like making old-skool CRPGs?

edit: I forgot to look at it from a coding perspective. Now that I think of it, while probably easier than trying to code very technical genres (Fighting/RTS), it probably takes a lot more effort to code an RPG than platformers. Of course, that's just coding, there's no gurantee the game design for an RPG would be good even if the written code is brilliant.

Also even if there is a niche, that doesn't mean profitting from the niche is an easy task.

I mean, if you just wanted to make money and maybe become famous at a low effort, it's probably still easier to make an indie pretentious platformer.

 

[treave]

I think the collective process of writing that document should be undertaken in the form of a treave mini-LP.

You are in the presence of a massive blue salamander. It is lounging on a threadbare wooden throne, a bejewelled chalice dangling carelessly in one of its claws. A large sandglobe is clutched tightly in the other, and it is this that the salamander gazes at with its unblinking eyes. A thin wisp of smoke rises from its flaring nostrils. The air is thick with a scent that strangely reminds you of gold, though there is none to be found in the room.

"Sssstatisst...." hisses the salamander, as it finally notices your presence. It transfixes you with a burning glare. There is no retreat for you now - if you move away you will trigger an attack of opportunity. Perhaps you should attempt salamander diplomacy.

What do you say?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I agree with the sentiment in this thread. Even if Pierre wants to keep selling his game at $20-$25, he should still look at outlets like GOG in order to expand the public attention his game company receives. If KoTC does well enough, there will probably be more interest in his company, and therefore his other sub-par products will also see a rise in purchases. Right now he's holding his good game back as a bargaining chip for illogical reasons.

Free Kony! KOTC!

 

[Gurkog]

Put it on GoG for $20. I will buy it when it is at $10 or lower on sale, because I am a poor bastard. There is no way in hell that I would spend $30, or whatever it is now, through an obscure website for it.

 

[ColCol]

Pierre is like Tesla, he will die broke in the gutter

I thought he already made a decent living as some type of consultant.


I

 

[Minttunator]

Interesting thread! I wonder what it is about indie game development that seemingly causes people to insert their heads into their own rectums.

 

[Castanova]

Then why aren't more such CRPGs made? There is clearly a niche market for them.

Beats me, maybe people just don't feel like making old-skool CRPGs?

edit: I forgot to look at it from a coding perspective. Now that I think of it, while probably easier than trying to code very technical genres (Fighting/RTS), it probably takes a lot more effort to code an RPG than platformers. Of course, that's just coding, there's no gurantee the game design for an RPG would be good even if the written code is brilliant.

Also even if there is a niche, that doesn't mean profitting from the niche is an easy task.

I mean, if you just wanted to make money and maybe become famous at a low effort, it's probably still easier to make an indie pretentious platformer.

It's not so simple as "easier to code" or "harder to code." I think a more descriptive way to say it would be "easier/harder to iterate." When you code a fighting game, you know right away what you need to do: have two dudes on the screen that can jump, punch, and kick and when they hit each other it should cause damage. The nitty gritty of fighting games is making sure it "feels" good and making sure the move sets and mechanics provide for a good experience. This process can be done iteratively and fairly easily at that. The realm of possible interactions in the game is extremely limited. Platformers are similar. RPGs are on the opposite side. It may or may not be easier to set up the basics of the game but what is DEFINITELY a lot harder to do is to iterate on your design.

RPGs are so abstract you can basically use any given system to model the game interactions. Skip the "what is an RPG?" argument for a second and compare Baldur's Gate 2 combat with Puzzle Quest combat. So, basically, where the engine coder's work ends and the designer's work begins happens much earlier in the RPG development process than in fighting games. You can basically doom your entire RPG just by going with a dumb system early on which is not possible to iterate into perfection (MMORPGs are a great example). Even if you're smart and you pick a good, solid base system (let's assume for now that d20 is "good system"), there are so many interactions possible within that system that it's still really hard to iterate. Each combat encounter is defined by the combatants who each have tons of attributes, skills, talents, plus the way the environment works. It's literally impossible for the designer to test a majority of the possible situations. So the obvious stuff gets iterated until it's polished but the deep stuff likely doesn't.

This is why RPGs are harder than other genres, why so many RPGs are so bad (big companies don't iterate as much -- they design, spec, build, test, and release), and also why you are vastly underrating the quality of KotC and Pierre's achievement in creating KotC. Yeah, he used d20 as a baseline but he took that system and turned it into a great game. He made a smart choice at the beginning ("Let's not come up with a whole new abstract ruleset") and then he developed and iterated that baseline system into a fully-formed game that holds up under a wide range of situations.

Pierre is like Tesla, he will die broke in the gutter

I thought he already made a decent living as some type of consultant.

According to his LinkedIn profile, he works for a company called M-Brain in the UK.

 

[TigerKnee]

This is why RPGs are harder than other genres, why so many RPGs are so bad (big companies don't iterate as much -- they design, spec, build, test, and release), and also why you are vastly underrating the quality of KotC and Pierre's achievement in creating KotC. Yeah, he used d20 as a baseline but he took that system and turned it into a great game. He made a smart choice at the beginning ("Let's not come up with a whole new abstract ruleset") and then he developed and iterated that baseline system into a fully-formed game that holds up under a wide range of situations.

I'll give him credit for the technical effort taken in implementation/coding the entire game/systems, especially with actual liscensed D&D games that have stupid bugs like "format your entire hard drive during uninstallation". That being said, he DID cut down on scale a lot (only 3 classes, no multi-classing, no need for pathfinding because it's a 2D game and everyone is assumed in formation while not in-battle, etc).

Edit: I don't really think it "holds up under a wide range of situations." It's a combat simulator. I DO have respect for something like AoD (from what I've seen the demo) where you have a wide range of non-combat skills, dialogue trees, C&C and so on but KoTC isn't one of those.

I won't give him much credit in terms of game design except maybe for 2 areas.

1) Encounter design. Assuming he came up with all the encounters himself. He might have ripped some out of a good module, but I'm going to assume good faith here.

Though I think the end-game gets stupid, whoopee, multiple dragon fights.

2) AI. The AI actually seems like it has some semblance of being able to implement a long-term strategy, like casting Web and then bullrushing your units into it or grappling your casters.

That being said, they're TOO in-love with these gimmick strategies. Even in late game when something like a Wall of Fire does little damage because of factors like having fire resistance available, they'll still try to execute them. Makes me wonder if they're just pre-scripted things to "wow" people.

 

[Castanova]

if you make something like a fighting game, you need to have the technical aspects extremely tight ALONG with having graphics that are considered "good."

That being said, he DID cut down on scale a lot (only 3 classes, no multi-classing, no need for pathfinding because it's a 2D game and everyone is assumed in formation while not in-battle, etc).

Edit: I don't really think it "holds up under a wide range of situations." It's a combat simulator. I DO have respect for something like AoD (from what I've seen the demo) where you have a wide range of non-combat skills, dialogue trees, C&C and so on but KoTC isn't one of those.

OK, so you respect developers who make fighting games, which are one of the most restrictive genres out there in terms of what you can actually do in-game. Then you dismiss Pierre's work on KotC because "it's [just] a combat simulator" that failed to implement things like "non-combat skills, dialogue trees, C&C and so on." Apparently two characters jumping, kicking, punching, blocking, and comboing contains a wider range of situations than a tactical combat map with 10+ combatants, each of whom has a variety of actions, skills, and equipment?

Yes, all Pierre did was copy d20, add in some old-school pixel graphics, remove 90% of d20 to "cut down on scale," and push it out the door! Good god, man, why didn't anyone else think of that? If only Pierre wasn't the only one capable of thinking in such a way, the market would be flooded with new RPGs! Quick, someone call GameSpot, we need to get the news out immediately!

 

[Whisky]

How can you go in such a wrong direction? Fuck me, KOTC was good too.

 

[TigerKnee]

OK, so you respect developers who make fighting games, which are one of the most restrictive genres out there in terms of what you can actually do in-game. Then you dismiss Pierre's work on KotC because "it's [just] a combat simulator" that failed to implement things like "non-combat skills, dialogue trees, C&C and so on." Apparently two characters jumping, kicking, punching, blocking, and comboing contains a wider range of situations than a tactical combat map with 10+ combatants, each of whom has a variety of actions, skills, and equipment?

Because I don't think KoTC is very good at being a combat simulator, probably BECAUSE it uses the D&D 3.5 ruleset.

But that's just me. Most of the Codex thinks KOTC some kind of tactical battle masterpiece, shrug.

Yes, all Pierre did was copy d20, add in some old-school pixel graphics, remove 90% of d20 to "cut down on scale," and push it out the door! Good god, man, why didn't anyone else think of that? If only Pierre wasn't the only one capable of thinking in such a way, the market would be flooded with new RPGs! Quick, someone call GameSpot, we need to get the news out immediately!

Because... it's still kind of a lot of effort to code even if all the design work has already been done for you?

edit: Like, imagine if you're tasked to create a program for Magic: The Gathering where all the rules are hard-coded so cards, with all their different unique effects, are automatically resolved by the program etc... Let's say 15 different expansions worth of cards.

The "design" is already done for you, but actually coding all these in still takes time. That's why no one is rushing to churn them out.

 

[Grunker]

This dog is not a cat! I am outraged!

ok

Because I don't think KoTC is very good at being a combat simulator, probably BECAUSE it uses the D&D 3.5 ruleset.

But that's just me. Most of the Codex thinks KOTC some kind of tactical battle masterpiece, shrug.

Another great example of the "all rpgs are shit" thought process so popular 'round these parts?

Or, pray tell, where is the wealth of tactical RPGs so masterful compared to KotC?

KotC is a fucking solid achievement considering its production process, nothig more, nothing less. You're bull-rushing an open door when you claim that it's not the most intricate piece of RPG-design ever.

 

[cherry blossom]

1) Encounter design. Assuming he came up with all the encounters himself. He might have ripped some out of a good module, but I'm going to assume good faith here.

I don't give a rat's ass if he copied shit from elsewhere but only the end result: that his game delivers the kind of fun and challenge that practically no other game in a long fucking time has done. If game developers need to start copying shit from here and there to make their uninspired garbage they call games actually fun and challenging, I welcome the trend. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

Instead, the thing that I get to look forward to these days is to bask in hatred and take a good and long shit on poorly designed games. It is the only joy they have left for us. Who thinks Project Eternity will have good encounter design, for instance? I don't. Not with Sawyer's Bland Soup of Console Balancing to make everyone feel equally capable lest people whine and cry about balancing, wrong choice of skills and whatever.