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games with set encounters and games with generated/ random encounters

WhiteShark

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I honestly do think roguelikes are the new RPG. They're the natural evolution of the CRPG genre, not what we got after it. I've spent so much more time "roleplaying" in rimworld, the way I wish I always could in RPGs. And yet even in good CRPGs - Fallout 2, Arcanum, Planescape, Baldur's Gate - You're always the motherfucker who has the fattest cock in the world and it's your job to shove it up everyone's asses.
I couldn't agree more. Roguelike design solves several CRPG problems and it's hard not to see it as the next step.

Consumables? Players hoard those in typical CRPGs because with sufficient reloading you can get through any encounter without using any. Not so in a roguelike, where you have only one shot and it's safer to burn a consumable to make sure you survive.

Choice and consequence? In a CRPG this can basically only mean story choices, and the only way to pseudo-enforce consequences in a genre with quick load is to make the effects of a choice appear significantly later in the game. Otherwise the player can just reload and test all outcomes with ease. Not so in a roguelike. If you lose an item or a follower, get mutated, or die - there's no going back, you're stuck with that. Real choice and consequence.

Replayability? CRPGs typically try to add replayability with story branching and class/skill choice. This can work out alright but story branching in particular adds a lot of work for the developer and generally the player is running through the same set piece locations regardless. Smart procgen with a small collection of handcrafted vaults to spice things up can add a lot more variety to subsequent playthroughs.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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I like random encounters. I mean, sometimes you are just wandering around and get ambushed by some robbers in the wilderness. It is like it is.
You have to wonder what it is with these robbers, though. WHY do they always choose the worst possible people to rob? This is the equivalent of Somali pirates going and trying to rob an aircraft carrier. We're not even a military supply ship easily mistaken for cargo freighter. We're armed to the teeth and loaded for bear, and totally look it.


WTF was that dude chasing? A giant rat?
 

J1M

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The trend today is even worse than random encounters. It is random encounters with 50 difficulty levels. The designer pushes their literal job, the calibration of challenge, onto a player with no experience playing the game. Often while failing to provide a detailed in-game description of how each difficulty bump changes the game.
 

Denim Destroyer

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Originally I was going to argue that a balance between the two should be struck but after some introspection I realized that set encounters are always superior. Random encounters rely on a set of parameters input by a person and some algorithms to determine when, where, and how combat should begin. Games like Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder Kingmaker, and Fallout/ATOM RPG all have random encounters occur while traveling. Another thing these games have in common is how their random encounters are terrible. The games determines it is time for combat and will select a list of enemies and place them with no regard to positioning or strengths of the participants. Think about this; when was the last time you played Fallout and came across 8 radscorpions or traveled through the districts of Athkatla just to be jumped by 8 muggers and thought to yourself "oh boy another random encounter?" These are a result of algorithms lacking the soul and imagination a person has. A person can do things a machine is incapable of doing such as telling stories or pushing the limits of player builds. A person can place enemies with synergy to one another allowing for fun combat scenarios. No machine will ever be capable of these things thus proving their inferiority to the human mind and spirit. Sure set encounters will always be the same thus eventually getting old but I disapprove of the notion of games having infinite content and replayability.
 

WhiteShark

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Originally I was going to argue that a balance between the two should be struck but after some introspection I realized that set encounters are always superior. Random encounters rely on a set of parameters input by a person and some algorithms to determine when, where, and how combat should begin. Games like Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder Kingmaker, and Fallout/ATOM RPG all have random encounters occur while traveling. Another thing these games have in common is how their random encounters are terrible.
But see, this is a problem with how those games handle random encounters. You're travelling along on the world map and then suddenly you're sucked into some mostly barren combat arena with some pathetic bandits or whatever. I agree that random encounters in Pathfinder: Kingmaker sucked, but it's because random encounters in that game just interrupt travel for a trivial and thoughtless combat. It's disconnected from the overall world, which is a stark difference from a roguelike where it would be part of the preexisting environment and you would have more freedom on how to handle it. Random encounters like PF:K are practically equivalent to the modal combat found in JRPGs and DRPGs which stands in stark contrast to how combat encounters are handled in the rest of the game. Splitting off the random encounter into a separate, narrow arena is the problem.
 

octavius

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A mix of random and scripted encounters is optimal, I think.
Randoms make the game more unpredictable and replayable, but a game with only random encounters betrays a lazy designer.

Another thing to consider is that with no random encounters (and no respawning) there will be no opportunity for grinding. The only such game I've played was Nahlakh, and it will be very interesting to see how the CRPG Addict fares in a relatively difficult game if he can't grind.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sure set encounters will always be the same thus eventually getting old but I disapprove of the notion of games having infinite content and replayability.

And even then, I can replay a game with really really good encounters every couple of years and have fun again because a great encounter offers variety by itself (try it with a different character/party, vary your tactical approach, etc) and if it's fun once, it's gonna be fun the second and third time too, especially if you've waited a few years between replays.

Meanwhile a game with "infinite" content due to proc gen tends to have a mediocre encounter quality on average, and the encounters all feel similar after a while anyway, so ironically there's less replay value in it than in a game with really good, well thought-out hand-made encounters.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Another thing to consider is that with no random encounters (and no respawning) there will be no opportunity for grinding.

This is a good thing. Get good or get rekt.

Also most RPGs I played don't require grinding random encounters anyway, grinding them too much makes you OP, some RPGs have a level cap so grind stops being an option once you hit it, and endlessly repeating similar random encounters isn't exactly fun.

Therefore, not having them cuts out a big chunk of tedium and therefore makes the game more fun.
 

WhiteShark

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Another thing to consider is that with no random encounters (and no respawning) there will be no opportunity for grinding.

This is a good thing. Get good or get rekt.

Also most RPGs I played don't require grinding random encounters anyway, grinding them too much makes you OP, some RPGs have a level cap so grind stops being an option once you hit it, and endlessly repeating similar random encounters isn't exactly fun.

Therefore, not having them cuts out a big chunk of tedium and therefore makes the game more fun.
The ability to circumvent difficulty through grinding respawning monsters is one of the biggest downfalls of RPG design. While to some degree depending on the game you can avoid grinding, it also acts as something of a tedious cheat option. It lends the game an air of inevitability because until you hit the level cap you can mindlessly grind through adversity, trading raw time for "success". I can't really think of any examples of games that balance challenges around having already hit the level cap except MMOs, so in the vast majority of cases grinding can nullify all difficulty.

When I advocate for random encounters it's not of the endlessly renewable, appears-out-of-thin-air sort. Rather, I believe that there is some merit both for the sake of variety and efficiency to randomly populate a floor/region with non-respawning monsters. If there's also a clock in place to drive the player forward (turn count, hunger, days passed, etc.) then minimal repopulation is permissible for the sake of potentially catching the player off guard, but without a clock there should be no respawning whatsoever as then it will just lead back to grinding.
 

Maxie

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And I'd rather play a game with only a dozen really really good encounters in total, than a game with hundreds of encounters that all feel the same.
I've heard this adage repeated endlessly by various people yet nobody has ever brought up an example of a single RPG which looks like this (let alone a squad-based RPG)
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And I'd rather play a game with only a dozen really really good encounters in total, than a game with hundreds of encounters that all feel the same.
I've heard this adage repeated endlessly by various people yet nobody has ever brought up an example of a single RPG which looks like this (let alone a squad-based RPG)

Knights of the Chalice 1 & 2.
 

Maxie

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And I'd rather play a game with only a dozen really really good encounters in total, than a game with hundreds of encounters that all feel the same.
I've heard this adage repeated endlessly by various people yet nobody has ever brought up an example of a single RPG which looks like this (let alone a squad-based RPG)

Knights of the Chalice 1 & 2.
neither a dozen encounters nor 'really really good'
 

WhiteShark

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Sure set encounters will always be the same thus eventually getting old but I disapprove of the notion of games having infinite content and replayability.
Even a game with good procgen won't have infinite replayability so this is a bit moot.

And even then, I can replay a game with really really good encounters every couple of years and have fun again because a great encounter offers variety by itself (try it with a different character/party, vary your tactical approach, etc) and if it's fun once, it's gonna be fun the second and third time too, especially if you've waited a few years between replays.

Meanwhile a game with "infinite" content due to proc gen tends to have a mediocre encounter quality on average, and the encounters all feel similar after a while anyway, so ironically there's less replay value in it than in a game with really good, well thought-out hand-made encounters.
Not every random encounter will be poised artfully at the exact threshold of challenge the player can handle, but neither do they need to be. Some random encounters will be weak, which is fine for pacing as long as it's not too frequent. Some will be harder, or even demand consumables to overcome. And then some may force the player to flee and forgo the combat entirely. Moreover, a smart designer will implement encounter groups, which partially reaps the benefit of set encounters while still taking advantage of procgen.

The feel of an encounter is an intersection of the capabilities of the player character(s), the monsters, and the environment. While a given encounter might occur very frequently in a given environment, it will still feel different depending on the character you bring to bear upon that encounter. In practice it can take a very long time to exhaust the complexities of environment + monster + player character.

I really love some games with mainly fixed encounters (Voidspire Tactics occupies a spot close to my heart) but in reality I have gotten far, far more enjoyable playtime out of roguelikes than traditional CRPGs. Thus my experience is that well-implemented random encounters offers a lot of enjoyable variety and replayability to a game. Hence a combination: a few fixed encounters for really important fights, and the rest can be procgen.
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Set encounters in main story and side quests, then do random fights in random encounters.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
If you're going to have respawning you have to have diminishing returns on xp from that type of monster.

I understand enjoying a bit of grinding for itself - if you enjoy the meat and potatoes of the combat, then you can get into a nice trance state. So developers should give a bit of elbow room for that. But grinding to get to level and cheese the game ought to be strengst verboten. The curve should fall off precipitously after you've killed a certain number.

It actually makes sense from the point of view of the concept of "xp" anyway.
 

Darth Canoli

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And even then, I can replay a game with really really good encounters every couple of years and have fun again because a great encounter offers variety by itself (try it with a different character/party, vary your tactical approach, etc) and if it's fun once, it's gonna be fun the second and third time too, especially if you've waited a few years between replays.

Meanwhile a game with "infinite" content due to proc gen tends to have a mediocre encounter quality on average, and the encounters all feel similar after a while anyway, so ironically there's less replay value in it than in a game with really good, well thought-out hand-made encounters.

Exactly, replaying proc. gen. encounters ad nauseam doesn't make a game infinitely playable nor re-playable, it just makes it infinitely boring.
Then again, japs and chinese seems to have a high tolerance towards grinding and even loving it so it might just be a western thing to not want to waste one's time over garbage content.

And about respawn, ideally, it should be linked to an event, a new horde of goblins/giants/whatever settling in an unoccupied (because you cleaned it) territory and offer new interesting (non proc. generated) quests.
 

Norfleet

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A designer might think "I will put archers on top of the hill because it makes sense" while a random generator will only think "I will put archers on the hill because I have a rule that ranged enemies should be placed on high ground".
But the designer is just following the rule that ranged enemies should be placed on high ground himself.

While a designer might create one or two encounters featuring enemy ranged units on high ground, but then go for something else in other encounters to avoid repetition, a random generator will do the same thing over and over again until it grows stale and familiar.
If the random encounter generator has very few templates for things to encounter, then yes, this will happen. If the player runs into a LOT of these random encounters precisely because the use of a procedural generation system incentivizes leaning on this system heavily to generate a lot of the content, then yes, this will happen. Otherwise, there is no intrinsic reason this will happen.
 

gurugeorge

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A designer might think "I will put archers on top of the hill because it makes sense" while a random generator will only think "I will put archers on the hill because I have a rule that ranged enemies should be placed on high ground".
But the designer is just following the rule that ranged enemies should be placed on high ground himself.

Yeah exactly. The extra coolness of handmade content comes in where people break the rules a bit, not just follow them. Where something occurs to someone to try that's a little bit out of the rules, and it works. AIs will be able to do that eventually to some extent too, but (at least for a long time to come) it will be like that AI-produced poetry - it goes along being pretty convincing and then there's an awkward moment, when you realize it hasn't understood a word it's said. :)

Creativity is basically just copying things with mistakes, it's just that the kinds of mistakes machines make are lower level, whereas the ones humans make are higher level, i.e. genuinely intelligent, coming from an overall grasp of the situation that machines don't have yet. I'm sure AI will get there eventually, but it seems to be a bit of a receding horizon, given how many times AI bods have cried wolf up till now.
 

jungl

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name 1 game that uses random generated encounters. Even rogue likes follow algorithm what can spawn and where.
 

CryptRat

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Here is a wall of text to say nothing, at least you're warned I guess.

One preliminary point, I think all enemies and items should be handcrafted, no template, colour thing, champions or whatever, nowhere am I talking about that sort of stuff in case that's not clear, only of some randomisation of encounter composition and placement (and item placement).



If the game lets you save everywhere then it'd better rely heavily on fixed encounters, the challenge is to beat all these encounters. The game can stop there with only handcrafted, handplaced encounters, I had a lot of fun with KOTC2 and Dungeon Rats especially.

That said I don't mind some occasional, randomly occuring encounters (which can be crafted or randomly created) as long as you get good loot from them. The thing with everything handcrafted is that it means you always get to choose from an exact fixed set of options the game proposed, and you can get paranoid when managing your resource, also in the case of the games I mentioned you don't have an insane amount of choice of encounters, for the biggest part you're just trying to beat the next encounter, no more, no less, like you're playing a mission-based game except with good presentation (mission-based games suck, these don't).

I really like to stumble upon encounters I can't beat yet, which is not inherent to random encounters, games like Helherron with their big world and even some harder encounters inside dungeon provide this quite well, but it's a fact that among very direct, even very linear, Wizardry and Bard's Tale clone there can be and there are often some parts, typically the very beginning, when even following the main path you can encounter a group of enemies which is too hard to deal with at that point, you need to sort your encounters, I think that's a big reason why I like those games, while in a linear game with handcrafted encounters that's obviously not the norm (you would not be able to go on), you need to move away from the main path to find unmanageable encounters.

And if there's an utility item involved then it's just there somewhere, you know that if you do everything you'll get it, which is a bit weak. Instead the game should be interactive with a lot of options to deal with obstacles, and you have yours, mostly chosen, but also some found ones and the point is these ones should also not be the same for every party. With some randomness you get to choose if an encounter's worth it or if it's better fleeing, if it's worth using resource, and maybe the next two handcrafted encounters will be easy because you got those flame arrows from a group of bandits and maybe another player won't. Maybe you got a single use flying spell scroll, and maybe you used all your resource to kill the enemy with the flying spell scroll because there's no way to know you would encounter it again. Then you'll manage to bypass a big sequence and it's a bit of your own story since many other players won't because they did not get it. Yet, that it's technically not unique will also mean you don't have to be utter paranoid about using it. Getting something which breaks the game is more satisfying if it was not completely prewritten. It must be the same campaign, the same layouts, etcetera, just that you can get or not get some items to deal with it another way at some point. It adds some extra freedom and adaptation to what items you have, which is not exactly what the game wanted you to have (choose from) at that point.

I still think fixed encounters are better and must be the meat of the game in that case, no random encounter at all is fine but I don't have a strong opinion about whether it's the only legit option.

A game does not need a way to grind, although' sometimes that can be better that some dumb XP system if you still want to keep different ways of playing legit (maybe it's better than giving the same XP for bribing enemies than for defeating them). Also having to actually get stronger to progress is not worse than retarded low difficulty.



Now with slightly limited save (let's say checkpoints) for more overall resource management I don't mind either way. Having to master a sequence of fixed encounters is fine, it's fun. Some randomness and even a lot of randomness can be fine too, I like to talk some enemies out of a fight, flee, use some bombs, manage to rest at least the one time it is critical to do so, retrying several times a sequence of random encounters until I finally manage to enter the dungeon, take what I wanted to take and leave the place safe. In that case, and I know not many games do that and I'm in a minority to want that, I'm for dungeons you can only enter once, where you can't save your game and that you can't leave until you reached the end.

In the case where there are a lot of random encounters and the challenge is for a big part to get strong enough to be able to tackle the next area, one important thing is that the difference of XP and loot you gain from one area to the next is big, if your party is good enough to beat some encounters in the next area then there must be about nothing to gain from an encounter from the previous area. Once again it's about loot and the extra freedom, you've got pistols, got one bomb then rush further to kill the guys with the machine guns with the bomb while underlevelled, take the machine guns and move forward. It feels a bit less like doing exactly what the game wanted you to do if this bomb was not put there exactly for you to do so.

I have got mixed feelings about random loot (not the exact same loot when you beat the same exact enemies), I prefer to get everything from the enemies, you beat a bunch of knights and it's a huge upgrade to your party's equipment, also of course when you beat a boss you want to get its stuff, but on another hand whenever I play some Wizardry/Bard's Tale/whatever I don't completely mind getting one piece of armor or one weapon at a time, occasionally getting a strong staff, one after each encounter, there's some progression among the area from hard to easy, reach the next area, start by replacing your very old stuff (from some previous, previous area) with some currently good one instead of getting everything from the first knights you fight that I kinda like anyway, some games have some absolutely retarded percentage based loot but since I'm OK not to based my opinion directly on those then I am not completely sure that getting everything from enemies everytime is the only legit way, I'm slightly more balanced.



With permadeath, when you need to restart from the very beginning of the game each time you die, then I prefer a good dose of randomisation, the entire point of this game is both to get good at adapting to what's next and sometimes be super happy and sometimes super sad about what you have to deal with based on your character, in particular in skill checks (identify items any way you can, detect traps, travel through a mine as a miner or as not a miner ...) but also during encounters, randomisation of trap placement and items to identify are more critical than encounters but replaying the same exact encounters each time from the very start of the game is not that fun either. But probably even more important, and unlike the above cases, I really prefer that the enemies will never respawn in this sort of game, I hate when you can grind in a roguelike, food should urge me to move forward and the set of monsters should be finite.

But that's a particular kind of games, that's not traditional CRPGs, in traditional CRPGs handcrafted encounters are better, better when the devs don't know what they're doing, better when they know what they're doing too. In practice there's probably an unnatural obsession with random encounters and also with a high encounter rate in the kind of games I like, the worst is when you get dungeon crawlers with random encounters yet you can save everywhere and hard encounters are, at best, some special ones, that just sucks. Beating a roguelike is cool, but these can't work with a party, they lack a party, they're not as cool. However most games with handcrafted encounters totally lack this beginning part where you're thrown in a jungle with all kind of monsters from weak to strong, you're pretty weak and keep fleeing, trying to finally encounter some lonely kobold you can beat to get your first spear or leather armor and eventually gain your first level. While I would at very least not be as unequivocal about later parts of the games, the beginning of The Bard's Tale is infinitely more fun than the beginning of Baldur's Gate to me, and I rarely have as much fun as when I complete a dungeon full of encounters and where I have to flee a lot which is designed so that you have to complete it from start to finish without saving, that's even more cool than a single retarded hard boss battle. So, yes, I don't know.
 

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