George Ziets opening a new RPG studio - Digimancy Entertainment

[Zed]

Finally took the time to read the thread up to this point. Thanks for joining us in discussion ksaun and G Ziets


I have a few questions:

How important is the "no publisher interference"-part of starting up Digimancy? To what degree would you consider working together with a publisher, big or small, to bring a game to market?

Are there any particular creative freedoms you are looking to exploit? R-rated contents; music that isn't generic orchestral stuff; wonky art styles; strange game mechanics, etc.?

Do you already have any self-imposed constraints and design rules in place? I know for instance voiced dialogue has been mentioned already. Game length? Tropes to avoid?

Because there are so many elf fans in this thread; what is your favorite type or sub-race of elves? And would you consider having elves in your games?

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Older games had more of an "amateur" quality to them where as now they seem more "professional" but at the same time more bland and formulaic.

Professional doesn't necessary means good. It often means cold, calculated and sterile. Professional art usually is a factory produced, focus tested garbage.

 

[Nalenth]

Art in it's most profound form can never be "professional". Great Art is genuine, honest and yet, in total control. That is why the greatest artists have to be geniuses. You can't teach them. Professionals are taught and are pale imitations of the real thing.

You can't get very far on talent alone. You have to practice and learn along the way. Advice from those more experinced in the field doesn't hurt either.

 

[G Ziets]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but G Ziets

1. Are there any story tropes/cliches that absolutely drive you up a wall and/or you try to avoid like the plague?
2. Does writing evil character options get tedious? With some exception, it appears as though many RPGs just segue immediately to murder-hobo just to have an evil option.

Otherwise, thank you for answering all of these questions. This thread is glorious.

1. Nearly all of the common ones. “Ancient evil reawakens” is particularly overused in fantasy. Any “save the world” plotline. Companions who join the party and take up the player’s mission without a strong motivation to do so. Any story dilemma that the writer solves by creating a MacGuffin that the player needs to fetch, rather than thinking of a clever way to solve it contextually.

“Attack on the player’s rural village at the start of the game” is another trope I would never want to use again. (Thankfully, most devs recognize its overuse, and it’s become more of a parody, at least among narrative people I know.)

Personally, I’m not too interested in Tolkienesque or traditional Western European medieval fantasy settings either, unless they have a really original twist.

2. Writing psychopathic murder hobo options definitely gets tedious. So does the stereotypical “I refuse to accept any reward!” / “Thanks for the reward.” / “I demand more money!” triumvirate.

It’s challenging to think of more subtle or contextual ways to present evil, but from the player’s perspective, it’s worthwhile, and it leads to far more interesting narrative branches than just murdering someone. One effective way to handle the “evil” path is to think about what would constitute evil in the player’s specific context, and then flesh out a full, rich path for that playstyle. If the player is an official of some kind, maybe the evil path is focused on becoming corrupt, taking bribes, arranging assassinations, and manipulating factions to your will, as opposed to murdering people in cold blood.

I’ll admit that I’ve never been too impressed when a game lets me kill anyone, anytime – not because the freedom isn’t nice, but because it doesn’t usually lead to very compelling outcomes (e.g., the whole town goes hostile and the player fails some quests or is forced to advance them a little differently).

 

[Nalenth]

I’ll admit that I’ve never been too impressed when a game lets me kill anyone, anytime – not because the freedom isn’t nice, but because it doesn’t usually lead to very compelling outcomes (e.g., the whole town goes hostile and the player fails some quests or is forced to advance them a little differently).

It's still better to have that option at your disposal than not, even if it doesn't lead to completely different branching paths in a quest. It's still a choice with a potentially compelling outcome.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's still better to have that option at your disposal than not, even if it doesn't lead to completely different branching paths in a quest. It's still a choice with a potentially compelling outcome.

I disagree. I haven't played any game where it's possible to kill everyone, and killing retains any kind of weight. If there is that possibility, it inevitably gets solved by finding the crucial breadcrumb written on a note in the corpse's pocket, or something similar.

There's a very simple reason for this -- finding some genuinely compelling outcome that still works narratively is too much work.

In fact is someone advertises a RPG as having the possibility to kill everyone, that's a red flag for me to stay away at this point.

 

[Roguey]

In fact is someone advertises a RPG as having the possibility to kill everyone, that's a red flag for me to stay away at this point.

If a developer creates an obnoxious character in an RPG and I can't kill them, that's it for any semblance of respect I had for them (this includes Swordflight, sorry Lilura).

Three of my top RPGs let you kill almost everyone (3xFallout), one lets you kill most and allows certain characters to die at key moments (Deus Ex), and one allows for an ending where you can kill everyone you've met (Mask of the Betrayer).

 

[Xeon]

I don't think I ever went on a rampage and not reloaded after releasing some steam. I just don't see a lot of benefits of killing everyone if its just to kill for the hell of it.

Still tho, I hope if there is no killing, then I kinda hope there will not be Beth type of essential NPCs who just keep on provoking you and asking to get killed while being unkillable like the kids in Skyrim or Fallouts for example.

 

[undecaf]

I’ll admit that I’ve never been too impressed when a game lets me kill anyone, anytime – not because the freedom isn’t nice, but because it doesn’t usually lead to very compelling outcomes (e.g., the whole town goes hostile and the player fails some quests or is forced to advance them a little differently).

You might have the bodycount affect the player character’s psyche in various ways.

Say, the more you kill people the more your character becomes accustomed to violence and brutality, and the less he is capable of acting kindly or finding ”good” solutions to the dilemmas he faces. Perhaps it even affects the characters ability to speak nicely to people.

Depending on the characters psyche level, some options go away, others take their place. Some NPC’s will shun the PC, others will embrace his take on the world. A kind of a sliding binary to juggle between the ends.

 

[mediocrepoet]

You might have the bodycount affect the player character’s psyche in various ways.

Say, the more you kill people the more your character becomes accustomed to violence and brutality, and the less he is capable of acting kindly or finding ”good” solutions to the dilemmas he faces. Perhaps it even affects the characters ability to speak nicely to people.

Depending on the characters psyche level, some options go away, others take their place. Some NPC’s will shun the PC, others will embrace his take on the world. A kind of a sliding binary to juggle between the ends.

KOTOR/KOTOR2 kind of had a "light" version of this with the alignment meter and companion reactions.

 

[Ismaul]

Eh. Morrowind.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Essential_NPCs

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Since it might be the only opportunity to do this:

G Ziets
What do you think about romances in RPGs? Do they belong there, should they be avoided? Have they ever been done well in the past? What are your most and least favorite romance subplots in RPGs?

 

[Goral]

I also like hybridization – using systems from other genres (often strategy) in the context of an RPG.

Have you played Sacrifice? It's a strategy game with RPG elements that failed commercially because it was ahead of its time. One of the things I loved about it was that in no other game I felt this powerful and I was a mere wizard. In games where we play as demigods or gods even (Baldur's Gate, Black and White) what we can do is just pathetic. What's the point of a fantasy setting if all of the spells (or at least their effects) can be replicated using current technology? Of course it's usually much harder to implement so we're left with some "meh" spells which seen today wouldn't impress anyone.


If you don't have it I can send you a GOG key, assuming you're willing to play it: https://af.gog.com/game/sacrifice?as=1649904300

I’ll admit that I’ve never been too impressed when a game lets me kill anyone, anytime – not because the freedom isn’t nice, but because it doesn’t usually lead to very compelling outcomes (e.g., the whole town goes hostile and the player fails some quests or is forced to advance them a little differently).

This is one thing that triggers me a bit. In TOW for example (but in New Vegas and many other RPGs too) you could have killed someone with unique knowledge or access but there was always another door that let you advance. If you killed someone who knew the location of a McGuffin there was a computer with such location anyway, or a map or there was an alternative McGuffin. But it shouldn't be that easy and sometimes if you mess up some quests should be permanently closed and that's it. It's similar with doors that can be opened with both lockpick AND hacking and if that doesn't work out you always have option to go around. Main quest I can understand but it's more fun IMO if only some builds can reach certain locations or get certain items rather than EVERYONE because there is a "door" for every skill.

“Attack on the player’s rural village at the start of the game” is another trope I would never want to use again.

While we're at it, why can't we start as a demigod or god who is already a powerful being and just goes Super Saiyan (so figuratively speaking start with an earthquake and go from there) but instead we're playing as a nobody who starts with a fireball spell or using a stick? Again, I know there are budget restrictions (fireballs are probably already in Unity store but tornados or volcanos or Death aren't) but please for once make it a bit differently.

 

[Alpan]

Have you played Sacrifice? It's a strategy game with RPG elements that failed commercially because it was ahead of its time. One of the things I loved about it was that in no other game I felt this powerful and I was a mere wizard. In games where we play as demigods or gods even (Baldur's Gate, Black and White) what we can do is just pathetic. What's the point of a fantasy setting if all of the spells (or at least their effects) can be replicated using current technology? Of course it's usually much harder to implement so we're left with some "meh" spells which seen today wouldn't impress anyone.

Sacrifice is one of my favorite games, and when I saw "this powerful" as a link I expected you to link to a demonstration. Your description is entirely accurate yet it actually undersells the game.

 

[Goral]

Have you played Sacrifice? It's a strategy game with RPG elements that failed commercially because it was ahead of its time. One of the things I loved about it was that in no other game I felt this powerful and I was a mere wizard. In games where we play as demigods or gods even (Baldur's Gate, Black and White) what we can do is just pathetic. What's the point of a fantasy setting if all of the spells (or at least their effects) can be replicated using current technology? Of course it's usually much harder to implement so we're left with some "meh" spells which seen today wouldn't impress anyone.

Sacrifice is one of my favorite games, and when I saw "this powerful" as a link I expected you to link to a demonstration. Your description is entirely accurate yet it actually undersells the game.

I didn't have time to search more thoroughly, although the youtube video I've linked has some of these spells in it (then again if someone hasn't played the game yet, discovering these spells while playing the game is a great experience so posting them here may spoil it). BTW, the video you posted was done by Polish player (well, it's a logical assumption considering he's playing the Polish version of Sacrifice).

Anyway, it's amazing that to this day there is no game which let us feel so powerful. In fact I find it funny whenever in an RPG player character (or PC with some few companions) can massacre whole villages (or armies even) while wielding assault rifle. Or with a magic wand that spews some puny spells and support of some swords and staffs we can slay a dragon even though if you think about it looks ridiculous. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy Age of Decadence so much, there is no bullshit like this there and yet we can still feel very powerful.

 

[Ismaul]

Eh. Morrowind.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Essential_NPCs

That is the entire point. You *can* kill plot essential chars and spoiler alert, sometimes even then solve the main quest.

Being able to kill NPCs and then being told that you have to reload if you want to continue the story really isn't the same as being able to kill all NPCs and the game accounting for it.

It's just a different flavor of immortal NPCs. I don't know why everyone has been rating my post incline, it's not.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Eh. Morrowind.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Essential_NPCs

That is the entire point. You *can* kill plot essential chars and spoiler alert, sometimes even then solve the main quest.

Being able to kill NPCs and then being told that you have to reload if you want to continue the story really isn't the same as being able to kill all NPCs and the game accounting for it.

It's just a different flavor of immortal NPCs. I don't know why everyone has been rating my post incline, it's not.

The message is not entirely correct there is a well-known backdoor to the main quest and for it to work only 1-2 NPCs need to survive, you can kill the rest.

 

[MpuMngwana]

Being able to kill NPCs and then being told that you have to reload if you want to continue the story really isn't the same as being able to kill all NPCs and the game accounting for it.

It's just a different flavor of immortal NPCs. I don't know why everyone has been rating my post incline, it's not.

*Quest started: get a job*
Ismaul: goes to the office building with an AK-47, pumps the interviewer full of lead
*Quest failed: get a job*
Ismaul: wtf this game sucks

 

[Ismaul]

Being able to kill NPCs and then being told that you have to reload if you want to continue the story really isn't the same as being able to kill all NPCs and the game accounting for it.

It's just a different flavor of immortal NPCs. I don't know why everyone has been rating my post incline, it's not.

*Quest started: get a job*
Ismaul: goes to the office building with an AK-47, pumps the interviewer full of lead
*Quest failed: get a job*
Ismaul: wtf this game sucks

I never said that Morrowind sucks because it has essential NPCs. Just been saying that the game does have them, contrary to what others have claimed. You got to follow the thread of discussion my man.

Though the game does suck, but for other more fundamental reasons.

 

[Sharpedge]

Eh. Morrowind.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Essential_NPCs

That is the entire point. You *can* kill plot essential chars and spoiler alert, sometimes even then solve the main quest.

Being able to kill NPCs and then being told that you have to reload if you want to continue the story really isn't the same as being able to kill all NPCs and the game accounting for it.

It's just a different flavor of immortal NPCs. I don't know why everyone has been rating my post incline, it's not.

The point he was trying to make is that you do not need any NPCs in order to finish the game. In fact, all that is required is Sunder, Keening and Wraithguard, although if you are quick enough, you can break the heart before Sunder or Keening kill you without the glove. However, if you do decide to kill all those essential NPCs, it becomes difficult to figure out what you are required to do in order to finish, as there are no guidelines explaining it. In fact, people who decide to speedrun morrowind for some unfathomable reason take advantage of this. Example:

 

[G Ziets]

Finally took the time to read the thread up to this point. Thanks for joining us in discussion ksaun and G Ziets


I have a few questions:

How important is the "no publisher interference"-part of starting up Digimancy? To what degree would you consider working together with a publisher, big or small, to bring a game to market?

Are there any particular creative freedoms you are looking to exploit? R-rated contents; music that isn't generic orchestral stuff; wonky art styles; strange game mechanics, etc.?

Do you already have any self-imposed constraints and design rules in place? I know for instance voiced dialogue has been mentioned already. Game length? Tropes to avoid?

Because there are so many elf fans in this thread; what is your favorite type or sub-race of elves? And would you consider having elves in your games?

1. We’re willing to work with a publisher if we have sufficient creative freedom and the terms of the deal are acceptable to our team. Publishers differ widely in quality. Some are extremely helpful with PR, marketing, and QA, while also providing financial resources that would never be available to a self-funded team. Others are… less so.

2. Most important to me is that we’re not forced to include the latest trendy features in a game. For example, no one can force an indie team to include multiplayer or a mobile tie-in in a game where it doesn’t fit well, or where the team isn’t passionate about that feature. I’ve seen some great game concepts crash and burn when the powers-that-be tried to force in some features that didn’t fit the game. The most interesting features arise organically from the team’s vision for the game, not from the latest marketing trends.

3. I talked a bit about tropes I'd avoid earlier in this thread (ancient evil reawakens, save the world, etc.) We’ll probably aim for a shorter game, partly due to budget – i.e., not a 60 hour epic but a tighter, more focused experience. Concentrate on a few core features and implement them to a high level of quality.

4. I prefer elves that are weirder, more alien, and don’t follow traditional systems of morality – something closer to the unpredictable fey of real-world mythology. If I had to pick elves in an existing fantasy setting, I might choose the Dunmer and Bosmer of Elder Scrolls. Dunmer society in Morrowind is fascinating in its complexity, and I’ve always liked the feral, cannibal Bosmer, at least as they’re depicted in the lorebooks.

If we were working in an existing IP that included elves, I wouldn’t be opposed to using them. They don’t particularly bother me in the context of D&D, for example. I probably wouldn’t include them in a setting I was creating from scratch, unless I found a way to make them feel really unique and different.

 

[Nalenth]

G Ziets
Okay, then i have some questions, too.

1. What kind of settings do you prefer in RPGs?

2. Is the faceless "player avatar" or a protagonist with a well-defined role/personal history better suited to cRPGs? How does this affect the quest design in either case?

3. Should the side quests be integral to the main narrative in a cRPG? Many side quests from MotB closely tied in with the main quest. Should we expect something similar from you in the future?

 

[biggestboss]

G Ziets what do you think of choice and consequences? How would you implement them in a game?

As examples, I think Witcher 2 with its separate paths, deus ex with it different endings or Dragon age with its faction choice for end game / change the entire story provide for some variety.

Would you prefer one of these or something different from other games or do you have your own ideas about how to execute it?

My notes paraphrasing Ziets presentation on writing/C&C at GDEX 2018:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...-discussion-thread.99490/page-36#post-5886560

 

[Theldaran]

Will come again when I see an actual project.

 

[deuxhero]

They don’t particularly bother me in the context of D&D, for example. I probably wouldn’t include them in a setting I was creating from scratch, unless I found a way to make them feel really unique and different.

I wouldn't include elfs in a setting either, but if you can make them unique, why make them elves?