Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Hearthstone

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Kind of. The deck is an anti-Paladin check, sure. The mechanic of charging Patrons/Frothings is stupid because the game lacks any real counterplay to it (no interrupts like in a lot of physical card games)

Thing is, the deck wasn't really a huge problem for ladder, except at the higher ranks. It was a plague on the co Lmpetitive scene, and Warsong Commander actually does restrict design space in general.




You've never played the deck properly, nor have you played against it being piloted properly. You have zero context about this.

It was absolutely the hardest deck in the game aside from old Miracle Rogue. You have no idea what you're talking about. (or you're trolling, in which case, carry on having fun my droog)




Well that's why they got rid of the deck.

Admittedly, this has weakened warrior even further in arena, but TGT arena is a shitshow that can't be fixed until the next expansion anyways.

More or less this. The reason Warsong needed a nerf is similar to why Leeroy needed one - they let you do 20+ damage out of an empty board with a relatively small cost in terms of cards and mana. I generally agree with Sottle's article, in that Patron was a cool deck that was both fun and challenging to play well, and it's a pity to simply remove it from the game outright. Like I mentioned earlier, the problem likely would've been solved by making Warsong work the same way as Southsea Deckhand - minions wouldn't retain charge if their power rose above 3. Then again, I didn't really expect anything better from modern Blizzard and their balancing philosophy. They did the same to Buzzard, after all.

On a related note, I think he's wrong about the Auctioneer nerf, which basically removed Miracle from competitive play. And that nerf was all the more stupid because Miracle wasn't even a particularly strong deck at the time.

And finally, I don't think you can have an informed opinion on how difficult a deck is to play until you at least reach Legend with it. Pros consistently misplay with Patron in tournaments, often to catastrophic effects, so it's about as difficult as HS can get at the moment.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Miracle wasn't nerfed solely because of its strength but also because it was boring as fuck to play against as you sit there and your opponent draws half his deck.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Miracle wasn't nerfed solely because of its strength but also because it was boring as fuck to play against as you sit there and your opponent draws half his deck.

That's not really how playing against Miracle looked like post Leeroy nerf, as it became more of a midrange deck with actual minions and could very easily play a value-oriented midgame. Besides, if being boring to play against was a basis for nerfs, Freeze Mage and Control Warrior would've gotten the axe long ago.

Also, it occurs to me that instead of nerfing Warsong and whatnot, they could've just removed Emperor from the game instead. Probably a good idea in general, as it's a dumb card that will keep causing similar problems by reducing the cost of combo pieces from future expansions.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,718
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Besides, if being boring to play against was a basis for nerfs, Freeze Mage and Control Warrior would've gotten the axe long ago.

One of the downsides of Patron nerf is people will go back to playing CW which is just unbearable to play against unless you're doing the aggroes of aggro. For any controll-ish deck playing against CW is a soul crushing experience of 20+ min games where you're slowly and inevitably losing from start to finish. Despite that don't really understand how their pilots can stand it either tbh.

Haven't seen that many Freeze Mages (barely any) I guess they're out of vogue.
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,869,069
The winner of America's championship (prize money $10,000/- only)

OHMSBCROSQVC1444611573404.jpg


You can just see the disgust on the face of the neon haired creature next to the 'champion'
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
1,494
I love the arena these days, with the help of Heartharena, it has become a glorious RNG crapfest with fireworks exploding like a million suns.
Good players like Phage are grinding their teeth at the view of such grandiose display of moronism, I absolutely love it, really.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
1,494
At the same time Hearthstone is alive and kicking! Of course it's completely moronic, it's a fish wearing a donkey suit with a neon pan stuck in its butt and talking in wolof.
But it's alive and it's fun, just take a look at WOW, who's now just a boring invisible walking dead who can't properly eat a brain anymore.
Gotta catch the glorious Blizzard Streamlined Idiocy while it's high: Hearthstone is the place to be.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
One of the downsides of Patron nerf is people will go back to playing CW which is just unbearable to play against unless you're doing the aggroes of aggro. For any controll-ish deck playing against CW is a soul crushing experience of 20+ min games where you're slowly and inevitably losing from start to finish. Despite that don't really understand how their pilots can stand it either tbh.

Haven't seen that many Freeze Mages (barely any) I guess they're out of vogue.

Most of the people on ladder who played Patron won't be doing CW. Patron is a cheap deck that only requires the first wing of BRM, a few Warrior rares/epics, and a bunch of commons/basic cards. And, I guess, Death's Bite from Naxx.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Is that America's Championship supposed to be a big event? $10k seems like very little. And that prize cup... looks like some shitty mass produced beer mug they spent $5 on... or is that just his beverage?
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821
The top spots directly qualify for Blizzcon, so it's kind of a big deal because the real money is at Blizzcoon. The $10k is just a bonus so it remains at least somewhat interesting after all the qualification spots have been taken.

Also, why would you ever dust that Van Cleef? It looks badass and is strong (Rogue will not be semishit forever).
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,869,069
If he is the America's champion, then there will be only 2 other champs, one for Euro and the final for Asia right? Do they then duel at Blizcon for the ultimate winner, and if so what is the final prize? 50 grand?
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
One of the downsides of Patron nerf is people will go back to playing CW which is just unbearable to play against unless you're doing the aggroes of aggro. For any controll-ish deck playing against CW is a soul crushing experience of 20+ min games where you're slowly and inevitably losing from start to finish. Despite that don't really understand how their pilots can stand it either tbh.

Haven't seen that many Freeze Mages (barely any) I guess they're out of vogue.

Eh, I always liked playing vs CW as Handlock. Then again, it's a pretty good matchup, and somewhat unique in that the Warrior actually has an incentive to play aggressively. But generally speaking, yeah, fatigue games are usually not very exciting.
 

Mystary!

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Holmia
I'm new to control warrior but I'm finding it pretty intense sofar, especially when fighting to stabilize against aggro.
I enjoy handlock for the same reason, that sweet feeling when you manage to turn it around after teetering on the brink of death the entire game.
 

Scruffy

Ex-janitor
Patron
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
18,150
Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
Combo decks in an environment where you can't really respond to the combo are not fun and toxic, so this is good. The same was true in Magic: decks that do everything in one turn while the other player just stares are bad for the environment, and Hearthstone isn't "interactive" enough to allow you to do anything of worth once your opponent goes off. HS is not a game that should have uncounterable combos.
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821
Combo decks in an environment where you can't really respond to the combo are not fun and toxic, so this is good. The same was true in Magic: decks that do everything in one turn while the other player just stares are bad for the environment, and Hearthstone isn't "interactive" enough to allow you to do anything of worth once your opponent goes off. HS is not a game that should have uncounterable combos.

So maybe you introduce some anti-combo cards that counter these decks in your new awesome 130+ cards expansion, right?

Oh I forgot, it's Blizzard, so just delete the combo archetype, make the game about who draws the more aggressive cancer curve and release a bunch of unplayable garbage and maybe 1-2 broken aggro cards instead of something useful.
They talk about their design philosophy of not nerfing cards and releasing counters instead all the time, but didn't even try to give players something against Patron with TGT.


Combo decks are cool, they have a different playstyle and reward skilled players for their decisions. Blizzard should try to preserve and properly balance them instead of killing them one by one. Also, at least for me, their noninteracitivy is not more frustrating than losing to the very interactive Face Huntard or Secret Pally decks, which can be piloted by trained chimps without losing much of their efficiency. I guess combo decks are just not casul and braindead enough to satisfy the customer base of HS.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,718
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
I wonder does anyone here play other card games? Did similar balance issues exist in MtG but got ironed out during the decades? Are those just teething problems? Or is it simply the case that Brode et al. are a bunch of headless chicken who don't know what they're doing?
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Combos are fine when they're limited in nature like Alex+Grom in CW, Antonidas+spells in mage, or even as something as simple as a minion buff like Van Cleef. What's terrible is shit like Patron or Miracle Rogue where you can chain it to half a dozen or more plays/actions and destroy people from a near empty board. That it takes more thought than a face deck doesn't make it any less awful. Mysterious Challenger is sort of like that, although not really a combo per se. Still, it's more annoying to deal with than Tirion which is one of the stronger legendaries in the game. An owl nullifies Tirion for the most part. With MC you have to hope you have some token minions to test all the fucking secrets and then hope you have some way to deal with the aftermath. That is... unless you're a Hunter with Flare. Hilarious that on the forums people argue all you have to do to counter Secret Paladin is play Hybrid (leaning towards face) Hunter or Mech Mage. Wonderful.

It's not that the game needs less combos it's that the synergies need to be capped so you don't have all of these ludicrous situations.

Re: Brode. It doesn't matter how good/bad he is at this stage. The game has made MASSIVE profit. He could wipe his ass on a piece of paper and submit that to his superiors for another five years and not be in danger of losing his job.
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821
I wonder does anyone here play other card games? Did similar balance issues exist in MtG but got ironed out during the decades? Are those just teething problems? Or is it simply the case that Brode et al. are a bunch of headless chicken who don't know what they're doing?

Magic is played professionally in different formats. You have a bunch of "limited" formats, which are the equivalent to Arena, where you have to make due with random cards (but the draft is way more demanding in the Draft format for example).

In constructed you have the "Standard" format that only allows you to use cards from the latest expansions and a bunch of "eternal" formats, that use different slices of the huge and deep card pool released over the years.
"Standard" gameplay is a lot like Hearthstone, you mostly have a minion focused deck and beat each other with it, with the occasional control or even combo archetype. You have the same problem as in Hearthstone, where everyone just plays the meta decks after a few tournaments but at least the card pool is continually shifting, so that you have to come up with something new from time to time. The format is USUALLY not that degenerate and games can take a while of back and forth play because of the limited availability of ultra powerful cards.

There are three big eternal formats, Modern, Legacy and Vintage, which use different slices of the card pool.
Modern uses all the cards since a design change about 10 years (?!) ago and is filled to the brim with combo decks that just win on the spot on turns 4-10, basically a situation unimaginable for HS players but pretty tame compared to the other formats (and there are some more classic decks as well).

Legacy is where it's becoming degenerate. You have most of the card pool ever released available for deckbuilding (except a few broken cards that were banned over the years), resulting in a meta of decks that want to outdo each other in brokenness. All of these decks are ultra fast and can either completely destroy you within a few turns (2-5) or set up a hard lock that doesn't allow you to do anything while they slowly grind you down. The cards that define this format are something that Hearthstone lacks, deck manipulation. There is a lot of cheap draw and shuffling around of cards in your deck so that you draw exactly what you want (this is not available to this extent in Modern, so the decks are mostly instawin there as well but can't assemble their combos as fast). Imagine Tracking on steroids in almost every deck.
Some of these decks utilize creatures to beat you, but they are mostly involved in setting up a combo. For example the "Elves" deck can chain its dinky mana creatures together in a combo to generate huge amounts of mana, draw half the deck and then overrun you with a combo piece in a few turns or alternatively cheat out an unblockable, indestructible 10/10 creature on turn 2-3. Other decks explode you with a spell combo a few turns into the game or destroy all your resources and watch you die slowly in agony.

Vintage has no banned cards, only a few restricted cards that you can use only a single one in your deck. In this format you have access to the design mistakes of the very early cards from the stone age of Magic, which are just completely broken and unfair, usually otherwordly mana acceleration and some over the top draw. Turn 1-2 wins are very common. Due to the broken mana cards from the dark ages you can kickstart your combo/draw engine, go through your whole deck, assemble the combo pieces and destroy your opponent in your first turn.

There are also a few turn 0 win decks that are able to kill you before you even drew a card on your first turn and had the opportunity to do anything. AND YOU ARE THE FIRST PLAYER. So you start the game as the first player and are destroyed by your opponent before you took a single action. Given, these decks are way less reliable than those that just cycle through your whole deck once it's your turn, but if you get the right hand they are kinda hilarious.

The thing that is balancing out these degeneracies are instant response cards that you can play on your opponents turn, for example countering a key spell of his for 0 mana. But always remember that your opponent can play these as well, so if you counter his key combo piece he can just counter your counterspell if he has the answer.

A funny anecdote of my schooltime, where a lot of people played MtG:
The brother of a friend of mine ordered a broken combo deck that was en vogue at that time (Megrim Jar) and challenged every dork in the school library to play against him for money (if he wins, everyone gives him 1€ otherwise he gives everyone else 1€). So herded about ten nerds together, that were sure to get some easy money with their Goblin aggro decks or whatever garbage they played at the time (they were pretty casul, but there were 10 of them).
So first round, everyone was playing dinky charge creatures or zapping his face with damage spells, being sure about how they get some eazy €. Then the guy went last (still first round), shat out his combo and oneshotted the whole table.
The deck revolved around a card that dealt 2 damage to everyone whenever they discard a card and another thing that let all players discard their hands and draw 7 new cards plus some mana acceleration. So he just cheated out the parts with mana acceleration, then let everyone draw 7 new cards and discard their hand, draw more mana and another 7 card draw/discard thing and repeat, dealing a shitload of damage to everyone around the table.
Of course I knew that the deck was broken as fuck (soon to be found on the banlist for official tournaments) so I just watched the library nerds cry out in agony over their loss and laughed my ass off.
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,869,069
Re: Brode. It doesn't matter how good/bad he is at this stage. The game has made MASSIVE profit.

I wonder about this. At first glance it does seem extremely profitable, but high revenues and a high buzz does not necessarily translate into a high gross, or a high net profit. I would be surprised if it was not making a large net profit for Blizzard but then I look at the large amount of bugs and instability of the connection and engine, which is Unity btw, and the fact that they always complete card animations after an expansion has launched, and I really wonder.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom