Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

[AwesomeButton]

DD: "When Japs Attack"

BTW, I really like it how "kebab" is derogatory in the EU4 forum, but "japs" in the HOI forum can be in the title of DDs

Sorry, thats my "Un-official title", you dont seriously imagine Paradox would title it that way?

Actually, I did. :D It makes sense now.

 

[Agame]

DD: "When Japs Attack"

BTW, I really like it how "kebab" is derogatory in the EU4 forum, but "japs" in the HOI forum can be in the title of DDs

Sorry, thats my "Un-official title", you dont seriously imagine Paradox would title it that way?

Actually, I did. :D It makes sense now.

It would be truly amazing if they did tho, the unholy PR shit storm that ensued would be glorious!!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Possibly too old or normalized (you know, since it's only just a contraction of Japanese)?

Awww, this disappoints WW2 Superman, he's still racist.

 

[SmartCheetah]

When gooks attack.

 

[Space Satan]

Hearts of Iron IV: Man the Guns will be available on February 28th 2019

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

That's nice.

Puts in "when I have a better computer" list

 

[Agame]

Finally, well I cant wait to see how badly the AI handles the fuel mechanic... Lets hope the "Expert AI" guy can get his mod working on the new version ASAP, as vanilla HOI4 is just unplayable bad vs AI.

 

[AwesomeButton]

That's it for me. The expansion sounds very good in terms of ideas and innovations in mechanics, but I won't buy a strategy game with no AI.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, I learned a pretty harsh lesson on waiting to hear how things shake out for the initial release patch from back when A House Divided was released for Victoria 2. That one broke fundamental parts of the game (namely, pop growth), so I generally chill about getting to new Pdox expansions (ie, I still have to get around to Holy Fury and Megacorp).

 

[Agame]

To be fair they have done some improvements to the AI since release, I was doing some Germany runs with vanilla, and noticed some significant improvements such as Italy keeping most of their army at home defending their ports rather than spamming across to Africa and dying in the thousands in transport ships. I never had to assign any divs to guard Italy which is astounding considering how bad this was before.

I was playing with difficulty veteran/elite, and also sliders high to max for the Allied Majors, and surprisingly having a fairly challenging game, the buffs to the Soviets in particular make the game harder as you tend to fight in Russia much longer than the west. Unfortunately in my last run mid 42 when my assault had stalled out and it was looking like the game may turn into a semi historical gradual retreat back into Fortress Europe, the entire Soviet army just melted and evaporated. When I tagged across and checked the production they were in deficit for ALL equipment, so sending all their divs into combat with no weapons... I think this is one of the biggest issues with HOI4, I know everyone creamed their pants over how exciting it was to be able to build individual tanks and artillery pieces but the AI is utterly incapable of managing the production system, and understanding the need to plan ahead or save equipment for a long campaign.

One of the many things that Expert AI does is have a "desperate defense" toggle that massively boosts the production of an item for a country whenever it goes into deficit, this is a pretty neat solution, because if you for example just tag across to the AI and console command them a giant boost of infantry equipment they will immediately line up 50 divisions in training and suck up all the resources rather than allowing them to go to field armies.

This game is always going to be a mess for singleplayer given there are just to many complex systems for the AI to handle without massive buffs/scripting such as a mod like Expert AI does. And considering the Paradox playerbase seems to get out the torches and pitchforks whenever "scripting AI" comes up this will never change. But honestly would it be so fucking terrible to have the vanilla Soviet AI forced to focus on building infantry and medium tanks rather than spending half the early game researching new ships and naval doctrines that are completely redundant to any strategy they have to survive WW2??

Anyway this is kind of turning into a rant so I will stop now, just to say that I am (shockingly!) overall pleasantly surprised with how HOI4 looks currently. When I bought it on release I kind of hated it and regretted buying it, but atm and possibly with MTG DLC (with 100% modded AI) it is a pretty decent Third Reich Larping Simulator. Its a reasonable alternative to HOI3 if you just want a MUCH faster and streamlined campaign, that still does retain some of the complexity that makes HOI3 so special. Because as much as I love HOI3 BICE for some truly sexy Nazi times, it is an incredibly daunting time commitment to start up a new game. Or maybe I am gradually turning into a filthy casual...

Well that turned into quite a rambling post, thanks for reading!

 

[AwesomeButton]

I know everyone creamed their pants over how exciting it was to be able to build individual tanks and artillery pieces but the AI is utterly incapable of managing the production system, and understanding the need to plan ahead or save equipment for a long campaign.

It's the same issue in all Paradox' games. The AI is good at calculating when will some unit arrive to reinforce another, but bad at coming up with a longer term strategy, that requires more "abstract thought".

This game is always going to be a mess for singleplayer given there are just to many complex systems for the AI to handle without massive buffs/scripting such as a mod like Expert AI does.

That's why their older games were better in that regard. Scripting made them controllable and plausible.

And considering the Paradox playerbase seems to get out the torches and pitchforks whenever "scripting AI"

The Paradox playerbase consists of 90% retards frothing from the mouth who laugh at Hitler memes, and play HoI instead of reading their history schoolbooks.

 

[hivemind]

Have any of you played the old Darkest Hour HoI game?

I can't really run HoI4 but I was thinking of playing DH with the OG Keiserreich mod

 

[AwesomeButton]

Have any of you played the old Darkest Hour HoI game?

I can't really run HoI4 but I was thinking of playing DH with the OG Keiserreich mod

I like DH more than any other HoI. I last played it in the autumn, I think.

 

[Agame]

DH is great, still probably the best HOI if you rate all aspects. And it has many great mods like Kaiserreich.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I would say the DH version of Kaiserreich pales next to the one made for HoI4. The additional functions HoI4 provides really work well for it.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Well, I learned a pretty harsh lesson on waiting to hear how things shake out for the initial release patch from back when A House Divided was released for Victoria 2. That one broke fundamental parts of the game (namely, pop growth), so I generally chill about getting to new Pdox expansions (ie, I still have to get around to Holy Fury and Megacorp).

Holy Fury released good out from the get go, only a few minor bugs.

Megacorp release was a mess, it really wans't something I would call playable until Patch 2.2.4.

 

[Space Satan]

List of features

• The British NF tree gains new branches giving choices between decolonization vs colonial development, appeasement vs pre-emptive wars, monarchist (unaligned) vs fascist vs Communist, as well as Imperial Conference Decisions and Events allowing bonuses or the integration of the Dominions
• The UK gains four 3D models of ships
• Faction members can usurp faction leadership
• National Focuses can be canceled after selection ##
• Sea SRs can be marked as Avoid or Banned, which affects trade route efficiency
• Docking Rights in foreign countries (as a subset of Military Access)
• Countries can clear and lay mines (which add Naval Superiority) with new techs, ship modules, and air missions. They decay after peace agreements. Ships can be degaussed.
• New naval Missions:
  • New Mine-Laying mission (for ships and submarines with the appropriate module) [i.e. mine-laying is a continuous process, not one-off event]
  • New Mine-Sweeping mission (for ships with the appropriate module)
  • New Naval Exercises mission (uses fuel, gain XP)
• New air Missions:
  • New Exercise mission (uses fuel, gain XP)
  • New Mine-Laying mission (with appropriate tech)
• Naval Losses window gains new breakdown tab
• New releasable tags (10 in Asia, 4 in the Middle East, 11 in the Americas, many many in Africa, 8 in Europe, 1 in the Pacific) plus ENG can be converted to England or to an Imperial Federation
• The US NF tree will have new branches allowing Communist or Fascist regimes at the cost of a civil war (with a neutral zone), as well as Decisions to prepare interventions (in either Asia or Europe) and War Plans and to gain support in Congress
• The US gains four 3D models of ships
• Admirals can have assignable traits
• Governments-in-Exile will have a Legitimacy score (very similar to subject Autonomy) providing them with Manpower and unlocking the ability for hosts (Faction Leaders) to train Exiled divisions, air wings, Generals, and ships (all from the Exiled Manpower)
• Humans playing as a Government-in-Exile will receive Exiled divisions and Generals from the host AI
• New Decisions will allow the UK to create Governments-in-Exile for countries that don't capitulate normally
• New Dutch NF tree has branches allowing colonial investment and/or domestic development, rearmament against Britain or Germany, revanchist Fascism (either as an ally of Nazi Germany or of Wilhemine Germany) or Democracy (as a British Ally or forming the EU) or revanchist Neutrality (allowing the restoration of the German monarchy) or Communism
• The Netherlands can gain Manpower from Germany if certain NFs are taken
• Britain and Germany gain Decisions to gain Trade Influence over the Netherlands; Japan can peacefully acquire resources in the Dutch East Indies
• 2D and 3D art for the Netherlands, including bicycle battalions
• Two new Special Forces battalions, Amphibious Light Tanks and AMTRACs (with generic 3D models and unique models for Germany, Japan, UK, USA, and the USSR)
• New Mexican NF tree has branches allowing capitalist or socialist economic development, nationalized or multinational oil corporations, domestic armaments, and alliances with various major powers
• New Mexican Decisions about the Church and the political orientation of the military can be used to align with the major world Factions or to create a new one, with diplomatic consequences
• 2D and 3D art for Mexico
• Resource concessions can be granted to foreign powers (initially only for Mexican oil)
• Human Faction Leaders and imperial masters can request suitable Expeditionary Forces from faction members/subjects for a particular Army/plan, which will transfer at their current location
• New Democratic puppets will be Supervised states, which is the least restricted form of puppet
• Decisions related to particular States can now be selected on the map
• Ship Designer for creating templates:
  • The technologies for ship classes are replaced by basic techs for Light/Cruiser/Heavy/Carrier/Submarine hulls and a variety of naval equipment techs (e.g. damage control)
  • Some vanilla techs (e.g. radar) will enable new naval equipment
  • Each Hull has a certain number of flexible slots that can be filled with modules of certain types. There are also fixed slots for some modules (e.g. engines).
  • Modules (not all available for all hulls) will be: AA, aircraft launcher, armour, depth charges, deck armour, deck space (a.k.a. aircraft hangars?), fire control, light/light medium/medium/heavy/secondary gun batteries, mine rails, minesweeping gear, radar, Schnorkel, sonar, torpedoes
  • Germany gets unique pre-Dreadnought, Panzerschiff & Cruiser Submarine hulls and the Nordic countries get a special Coastal Defence Ship hull
  • Ships can be changed from one template to a variant of that template, which uses Dockyard capacity (the ships remain on the map and can be captured)
  • It may be possible to choose the template's icon and 3D model
• Nations that were signatories to the London Naval Treaty will face restrictions on naval construction, affected by diplomatic Decisions. Other countries may be forced to join or fight.
• A ship can be designated as Pride of the Fleet, giving certain bonuses (and a War Support malus if sunk).
• New naval techs giving passive benefits (i.e. improving existing ships as well as new ones).
• Four new songs for the UK and the USA.

 

[Beastro]

Possibly too old or normalized (you know, since it's only just a contraction of Japanese)?

People these days are trying to get Brit flagged as a derogetory term.

To me, Jap is something intrinsic to WWII. Not appropriate outside of that context, but very much so within it in the same way all the per slurs for Germans are too.

 

[Beastro]

Throwing 2000 naval bombers would mean real live WWII ships are dead right? So it's actually expected outcome.

In a single battle? Yes.

Cept you never would as some would be spread out searching for a major battle or simply patrolling as others were refueling and still others were broken down or otherwise undergoing maintenance.

This is the same problem people have looking at nuclear warhead stockpiles and assuming all would be used. They wouldn't be as things usually go in 1/3: 1/3 would be undergoing maintenance replacing their tritium, 1/3 would fail for one reason or another, be they the failure of the warhead itself to initiate or the missile they're on failing during transit and leaving 1/3 expected to be ready and able to hit their target. Suddenly those 9000 Cold War level warheads are down to 3000 and you then have to spread them out between several hundred targets anticipating that you can't assign one for every target given possible failure to destroy the target, especially in the face of ABM defences. The result is those numbers being very spread out.

Back to naval aircraft, none of this is even touching on the other things such naval bombers would be doing, like those sitting waiting to attack in concentration, how others many would be assigned to anti-submarine patrolling and covering convoys as well as the large are you are assigning those aircraft to. It's one thing to assign them to the North Sea, but what if you're enemies ships aren't there requiring the wisest thing to do is to distribute those 2000 aircraft all over the North Atlantic, which given what was said above, results in only a few aircraft in one area at a time. Suddenly 2000 is barely covering it and you'd ideally require two to three times as many to really do the job.

The game Rule the Waves has an interesting mechanic in that regard to simulate the tying down of ships for simple patrol. In war you are required to assign a certain number of escorts to patrol or you suffer both prestige damage and in damage to ships from subs and mines. Going in not knowing how to play the game, you may think you have enough destroyers and other auxiliaries, only to suddenly realize that you don't and need to cut into your battle fleet support screen in order to meet those.

None of this then touches upon if investing in that manay for naval warfare is worth is as you neglect the requirements of other areas of the war that are starved of aircraft.

This is part of the reason why Germany never developed strategic bombers. Why build 200 four engined heavy bombers when you could build 800 single engined fighters and bombers or 400 twin engined transports when Germany was always starved of air transportation?

Yea its a syndrome with modern game devs:

"Guys you know that stuff you liked from a previous version of the game? Well you were wrong to like it, we know better than you, its actually shit so we are removing it."

Then a few years later they bring it back due to "popular" demand... And then there is always the conspiracy theory that they now have a nice and juicy DLC feature they know people will throw money at them for.

It's funny because that kind of crap constantly happenes in military tech too.

Submarines and torpedo tubes are a good example of that. There's a good oscillation every 20 years between having few tubes and many reloads seeking longevity and minimizing the need to return to port to rearm and having as many single use tubes on a sub as can be fit with the eye that a submarine may not have the ability to live long enough to use all their reloads and being able to fire the most torps at one moment, or at least before they inevitably get sunk, is more important.

Yea, current sub gameplay is pretty much entirely about simply building them in gigantic numbers to offset constant losses.

Which is historical.

In general, either the naval war is won easily (through some lopsided abuse of naval bombers/battleships/carriers/etc) or most players other than the US/UK/Japan will ignore it. There's no reason for most nations to invest significant resources in naval warfare in order to fight at 1:1 parity and stalemate the AI.

Again historical.

 

[Space Satan]

This tidbit isn’t featured prominently in the launch trailer. Instead, it’s listed at the top of the bullet points in the formal description of the DLC’s content, alongside the opportunity to decolonize the British Empire. Paradox refers to the political party as the Old Confederacy, but there’s no beating around the bush here. The group is intended to be successors to the same white supremacists who fought to preserve the institution of slavery in the 1860s.

This seems like a tremendously bad idea, considering the United States still hasn’t come to terms with its history, that the Civil War and the institution of slavery reverberate through today.

WHAT A SUPRPRISE

 

[XenomorphII]

Just wait until he realizes you can be literally hitler in the base game.

 

[Agame]

Which is historical.

My god man, have you actually played this game?! Its about as historical as Starcraft...

 

[Beastro]

Which is historical.

My god man, have you actually played this game?! Its about as historical as Starcraft...

And how is that an issue when it comes to submarines, especially when so much about Paradox games is doing enough to create verisimilitude around historical details rather than aiming for pure realism?

Would you rather the ability to take on and defeat a proper, conventional navy with only subs like you could do in a Civilization game if you dedicated yourself to it instead?

 

[Agame]

Which is historical.

My god man, have you actually played this game?! Its about as historical as Starcraft...

And how is that an issue when it comes to submarines, especially when so much about Paradox games is doing enough to create verisimilitude around historical details rather than aiming for pure realism?

Would you rather the ability to take on and defeat a proper, conventional navy with only subs like you could do in a Civilization game if you dedicated yourself to it instead?

Sorry, that was just some cheap shit-posting, I for one always advocate for historical gameplay as much as is possible.

Regarding subs the only thing that matters is they are good at convoy raiding, but I assume this will be fixed in MTG. For fleets in general I have seen some discussion re: fuel mechanics on the official forum, it could be used as a way to balance fleet size, with limited fuel it could mean nations can only put to sea with smaller navies as was historical. This could be a way to fix "death stacks". I am still skeptical as previous HOI games have shown as soon as you introduce resource management a human player can cheese the system and make it irrelevant. As an example in HOI4 atm as Germany you just spam synthetic plants all over Europe and then never worry about oil/rubber again. This is utterly retarded, if it was so easy to make fuel in real life the Axis probably would have won the war...

I still think they could abstract fuel resource, similar to how it is now where there is a flat cap of X resource rather than 'stockpiling'. And then you can only run as many vehicles/ships as your cap allows, with maybe diminishing effectiveness the more you have. I actually think the current HOI4 resource system is pretty good, the old stockpile mechanic is just bad and easily manipulated. They clearly needed to make a better fuel system on release but imo simply going back to the old stockpile mechanic is incredibly lazy and a waste of an opportunity to do something better.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Though that's where we run into where the game part starts causing problems, namely that you have to make it so the Axis can win and all that jazz. Actually that reminds me of one thing I feel HoI games in general have never really tackled, how a stalemate could transition into a peace or cold war (hence why I always advocate a Cold War expac so we can have WW2 end conditions that aren't Conquer The World).