Help me find a GOOD tactical rpg please.

[TyTheImmortal]

Well that's one shallow review

"Things cost action points in turn-based, AP-based game!"
good one

You make it sound like I don't explain why this is a bad thing. I think the entire concept of AP/TU is too rigid, and my criticisms would apply to many other games besides JA2. Seeing as the top poster is generally dissatisfied with the genre, this might provide an explanation.

Sure, games using this kind of system can make their gameplay more dynamic by not being so miserly with the AP/TU cost (another area I think 40k:SC > JA2), but my advice would still be Valkyria Chronicles, and the new XCOM out in October. I believe VC was the first of a new breed of tbs, and XCOM will be the 2nd.

 

[Raghar]

Is he braindead?

He talked about completely minor things in his review, and missed large problems. He missed the fact it was a strategy game (tactical squad game subgenre). And now he is talking about some strange game that can be called copy of Gears of War in somehow alien invasion like settings as about new breed of...

 

[TyTheImmortal]

You must be confusing the fps XCOM remake (which seems to have been put on hold) with the turn-based tactical remake. It looks a little like Gears of War but the gameplay is entirely different.

And how is criticising the fundamental game system a "minor thing"? Yes JA2 has a strategic layer, but it also has tactical combat. Personally I'm more interested in tactics which is why I neglected the strategic side of the game a bit (I am aware the review isnt perfect).

As for all this talk of braindead, I've had in-depth debates on this subject which explore the merits and defects of various kinds of game systems. What you guys have offered up so far are a few sad scraps of rhetorical character defamation.

A sorry state of affairs for any forum which claims to be hardcore.

I tell you what, I'm open to being wrong about the game. Someone post some footage of active, dynamic JA2 gameplay. Oh and I've seen the speedrun, which I do like, but it uses exploits and is based around *avoiding* battles.

 

[spekkio]

^
BRO, you don't get it.
It's totally impossible to criticize JA2 on 'Dex. Resistance is futile.
And nothing from Japan can be better than glorious western PC game (bonus points for being an old game).
That's how Codex works.

End of line.

 

[Raghar]

You must be confusing the fps XCOM remake (which seems to have been put on hold) with the turn-based tactical remake. It looks a little like Gears of War but the gameplay is entirely different.

I talked about that strategy game that has base which is called ant farm. You know that game with few squad members. I played something similar, Aftershock, but where Aftershock had 5 squad members (7 with research), that game from Firaxis would have only 4 (6 with research).

According to current information, there is no reason why anyone would think this would be something more.

As for all this talk of braindead, I've had in-depth debates on this subject which explore the merits and defects of various kinds of game systems. What you guys have offered up so far are a few sad scraps of rhetorical character defamation.

A sorry state of affairs for any forum which claims to be hardcore.

I tell you what, I'm open to being wrong about the game. Someone post some footage of active, dynamic JA2 gameplay. Oh and I've seen the speedrun, which I do like, but it uses exploits and is based around *avoiding* battles.

Why? What do you think you'd see? Bullets going from one side of screen to another, and that's all. I doubt a video of Fantasy wars gameplay would show any action, and neither would video of this game.

 

[dehimos]

Well that's one shallow review

"Things cost action points in turn-based, AP-based game!"
good one

You make it sound like I don't explain why this is a bad thing. I think the entire concept of AP/TU is too rigid, and my criticisms would apply to many other games besides JA2. Seeing as the top poster is generally dissatisfied with the genre, this might provide an explanation.

Sure, games using this kind of system can make their gameplay more dynamic by not being so miserly with the AP/TU cost (another area I think 40k:SC > JA2), but my advice would still be Valkyria Chronicles, and the new XCOM out in October. I believe VC was the first of a new breed of tbs, and XCOM will be the 2nd.

360, Operation Darkness. It is other similar.

 

[SCO]

I will tell something i don't like about jagged alliance 2: parts of the interface. I don't like that it has no mouse drag-selection.

Btw, this really should be a optional thing for the patch.

 

[TyTheImmortal]

You must be confusing the fps XCOM remake (which seems to have been put on hold) with the turn-based tactical remake. It looks a little like Gears of War but the gameplay is entirely different.

I talked about that strategy game that has base which is called ant farm. You know that game with few squad members. I played something similar, Aftershock, but where Aftershock had 5 squad members (7 with research), that game from Firaxis would have only 4 (6 with research)

That's strange, because you like JA2 and that does fine with what I think is an area limit of 6 mercs? Or if that is not the limit, it seems to be the optimal number of mercs.

While it will undoubtedly change the feel of the game when compared to the originals, I think Firaxis have made the correct choice. Less units means less redundant moves, more powers for each individual (without unbalancing the game), and generally quicker gameplay. 4-6 is easily enough for some complex tactics to emerge.

Also I don't know about you, but I will be researching Psionics as soon as I can. Controlling enemy units will give you even further options. And if all of this wasnt enough, just buy the PC version. I'm sure it will be heavily moddable.

Why? What do you think you'd see? Bullets going from one side of screen to another, and that's all. I doubt a video of Fantasy wars gameplay would show any action, and neither would video of this game.

XCOM already looks a lot more exciting and I'll tell you why:

Tactics in these games are a lot to do with drawing lines. You draw a line to move, then you draw a line to shoot (thus creating angles). In JA2 you are discouraged from moving because of the AP system. So a lot of the lines you will be drawing will be the same because you'll be standing still and repeatedly firing at ur enemy from one spot.

Firaxis have said that their development has been focussed on flanking, and creating different angles to the enemy. You get an increased chance to hit based on your position relative to an enemy in cover, but even more importantly the game gives you tools to get in those positions. For instance, the Assault class has an ability called 'run n gun'. This gives you your full movement in addition to your full attack (usually you choose between 2 moves 0 attack or 1 move 1 attack. RnG gives u 2 moves and 1 attack. It has a cooldown period). How could you implement this in an AP system? It would get very messy. And so in AP systems they tend not to do stuff like that, and the net effect is a defensive and slow game.

I will reiterate that I think JA2 is more for strategy ahead of tactics. It looks to me like XCOM will deliver on that front too (antfarm looks great!) so I have no idea why some fans of turn-based games are so skeptical. This is the big tb game to close out this gen, get hyped!

(I have searched videos of JA2 in an attempt to see another side of the game, but my favourite tactic other than the speedrun was a guy shotgunning someone through the windows of a building, from one side of the building to the other. Apart from that I've just seen a whole lot of camping)

 

[Raghar]

That's strange, because you like JA2 and that does fine with what I think is an area limit of 6 mercs? Or if that is not the limit, it seems to be the optimal number of mercs.

I think it's a mediocre game, nothing to write home about.

While it will undoubtedly change the feel of the game when compared to the originals, I think Firaxis have made the correct choice. Less units means less redundant moves, more powers for each individual (without unbalancing the game), and generally quicker gameplay. 4-6 is easily enough for some complex tactics to emerge.

I'm sure it will be heavily moddable.

Who cares about modding?

Why? What do you think you'd see? Bullets going from one side of screen to another, and that's all. I doubt a video of Fantasy wars gameplay would show any action, and neither would video of this game.

Firaxis have said that their development has been focussed on flanking, and creating different angles to the enemy. You get an increased chance to hit based on your position relative to an enemy in cover, but even more importantly the game gives you tools to get in those positions.

But you know in real live warfare soldiers don't move that much. They will find nice defensible position and call air strike, because when air strike causes colateral damage, it's fine, but when they would use tank gun, there would be investigation and they would get into trouble.

For instance, the Assault class has an ability called 'run n gun'.

Class. Not a soldier that trained himself into several areas because of necessity.

This gives you your full movement in addition to your full attack (usually you choose between 2 moves 0 attack or 1 move 1 attack. RnG gives u 2 moves and 1 attack. It has a cooldown period). How could you implement this in an AP system? It would get very messy. And so in AP systems they tend not to do stuff like that, and the net effect is a defensive and slow game.

So basically it's the same system (move and action) that was used in Disgaea and Tactic Ogre, they just spiced it by RNG and few more actions that depends on class.

AP system were made to allow more degree of freedom, and to slow down game play to prevent a simple charge and melee hit against machine guns.

It looks to me like XCOM will deliver on that front too (antfarm looks great!) so I have no idea why some fans of turn-based games are so skeptical. This is the big tb game to close out this gen, get hyped!

The original game had heavy strategic layer, and forced into several hard choices that had impact on strategy for months. It also forced into heavy money managenment, at least for these who didn't did the manufacturing/selling cycle.

Firaxis game have very little in common with the original game/concept with exception of US name, EU name was different.

The current game is too simple, flashy, and kills suspension of disbelief. Big bosses? Threatening animations from aliens?

 

[TyTheImmortal]

I think it's a mediocre game, nothing to write home about. [\quote]

If u mean JA2 I am in agreeance with you. If you mean XCOM then it's nothing but speculation because it isnt out yet.

Who cares about modding? [\quote]

Not me, but maybe folks who want to use more than 6 units in a battle.

But you know in real live warfare soldiers don't move that much. They will find nice defensible position and call air strike, because when air strike causes colateral damage, it's fine, but when they would use tank gun, there would be investigation and they would get into trouble.

Class. Not a soldier that trained himself into several areas because of necessity.

Who cares about realism? I mean why dont the aliens just hit us from orbit then? I'm not bothered abiut much realism, I like chess, for instance.

So basically it's the same system (move and action) that was used in Disgaea and Tactic Ogre, they just spiced it by RNG and few more actions that depends on class.

There are a lot of games that use such a system, especially JPN games. I imagine it will have similarities to Valkyria Chronicles too.

AP system were made to allow more degree of freedom, and to slow down game play to prevent a simple charge and melee hit against machine guns.

There are other ways of doing that without slowing the game to a number-grind. Make enemy interception fire reduce movement ability, for indtance.

The original game had heavy strategic layer, and forced into several hard choices that had impact on strategy for months. It also forced into heavy money managenment, at least for these who didn't did the manufacturing/selling cycle.

Strategic layer and choices are still there, and are probably less dry this time around.

The current game is and too simple, flashy, and kills suspension of disbelief. Big bosses? Threatening animations from aliens?

Those things in no way prevent the game from being deep as they are only surface--deep. Chess is a great example of a simple yet deep game.

XCOM isnt even out yet. Why are you people disliking it by default

 

[TyTheImmortal]

I have got to stop posying here on my phone, sorry about the formatting fail. If a mod could correct it that would be very helpful otherwise I'll edit it or delete/repost later.

 

[Gozma]

I'm not thinking the X-COm squad game is going to be bad. I just think it is not going to be an extension of the core appeal of X-Com to me, which is a version of squad tactics that creates high tension and horror. X-Com has lots of serious problems similar to JA2 (where being aware of and manipulating sighting distance is the final tactical insight you will ever need in the game) and I was hoping to see them find out how to extend the gameplay. Instead it looks like it will be waaaay less deadly or horror-suited with small teams that can't survive deaths and the rigid non-equipment-based class roles. I think it will probably be decent but not what I was looking for.

I like JA2 when I feel like gun porn

 

[Emily]

Fire emblem series are pretty much the best(game cube one being the best imo). But only if you play ironman mode, if you save scum it gets much easier and boring.
Other then that, i would recomend legend of forsena, but it is a bit easy.
Also fantasy wars, and elven legacy all decent games

 

[Raghar]

Fantasy wars and elven legacy are strategy games, not RPGs.

 

[Jadeite]

Final Fantasty Tactics
Shining Force II
Shining Force

Then you have the Fire Emblem games, which I might rate higher if I knew Japanese. Since they were made by Nintendo I bet they're pretty damn good.

Tactics Ogre
Ogre Battle

Then shit like Vandal Hearts, which to be honest is reaching the bottom of the barrel.

Shining Force III may be good, I haven't played it yet but thought the graphics looked terrible in the Youtube videos.

There's a ton of other shit out there, but I just don't see the point. These games tend to get formulated. Non-Japanese really missed out on Fire Emblem. Those games were doing it long before Shining Force. There are something like six before the creator died and the games went portable (hence, shit, I'm sure).

 

[Niektory]

I finished ffta. It was a brilliant game, but ffta2 kept all the good bits and expanded on them, so it has become my benchmark since.

As for the original tactics, idk, i didn't enjoy it as much, primarily because of the way skills were gained, and because of a smaller selection of jobs to choose from. I know it was the one responsible for ffta in the first place, i just didn't like it as much.

Unlike Tactics Ogre and FFT, FFTA was way too easy for me. Only the boss battles were challenging (all 4(?) of them), the rest was mopping the floor with trash enemies which got old fast. Is FFTA2 any harder or roughly the same?

 

[Lightknight]

I will tell something i don't like about jagged alliance 2: parts of the interface. I don't like that it has no mouse drag-selection.

Someone didnt play the game. JA2 has drag-selection.

IF you are into jRPG, try Front Mission 3. Tactical Mecha squadbased turnbased RPG.

Better yet, try Front Mission 1, a largely superior game with proper size maps and tactics.

Vanguard Bandits. Difficulty will vary a lot depending on how you play and which route you take. Derpy setting (magical giant robots) but pretty cool otherwise.

What utter garbage of a game !
There arent any interesting choices to make, at all. There arent any different weapons or equipment, no customizing of any kind, you cant even choose who you want to use in the battle. First few battles drag on, and on, and on, move-attack, move-attack, move-attack. Booooriiiing. Who thought the "Interview" option was useful or even slightly interesting ? What's the point of various terrain types and heights, if none of it matters (with the pointless exception for horse-mech) ?
What's the point of all the wussy useless spells ? How can you tell what the different stones do ?

And my god, what a bad interface design ! Cant compare stats of mechs, cant unequip things from previous mechs without equipping mechs and having spare stuff, game randomly refusing to undo unit move even if you havent acted yet...

The best thing about this game is that it's very short.

There's also a spiritual successor named Growlanser but I haven't played that.

Growlanser series are way more of a traditional TacticsOgre-kind of SRPG. Slightly above mediocre.

I would advice people to take a look at SD Gundam G Generation series, especially PSX titles. Recent releases are visually amazing, but also pretty much grindy eye-candy. PSX titles are proper strategy games. If i had to describe it in a sentence - Pokemon meets Fire Emblem meets Super Robot Wars. You buy and capture generic military mechs, put unique (or not) pilots in them, and when you kill stuff your mechs "evolve" into higher forms. Oh, and also if you get shot down - that mech is gone forever. Pilot survives, though.

 

[SCO]

I will tell something i don't like about jagged alliance 2: parts of the interface. I don't like that it has no mouse drag-selection.

Someone didnt play the game. JA2 has drag-selection.

Yeah you're right, not sure why i thought not, unless i forgot it or straticella didn't implement it. Possibly i was complaining about there being no interface button for mass selection (i know about 0 but i didn't the first few times played)

 

[Admiral jimbob]

why has nobody mentioned Gladius

 

[damicore]

Is there any japtactical rpg where there are things similar to enemy supression or attack of oportunities? I really hate the fact that you can't pin down enemies in any way or form which renders any kind of defensive tactic useless. There is no way an enemy unit can pass just besides my awesum paladin from legendia without him doing anything about it.

And any game in which there is anything similar to any sort of terrain penalties and stuff which do actually play a big role in the game?

That's what has kind of distanced me from these games; it's like positions or terrain advantages are completely unimportant and the games turn into a chore. Checking every enemy's movement range so I get to deal the first blow is as tactical as it gets, or so it seems.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Gladius

 

[felicity]

Is there any japtactical rpg where there are things similar to enemy supression or attack of oportunities? I really hate the fact that you can't pin down enemies in any way or form which renders any kind of defensive tactic useless. There is no way an enemy unit can pass just besides my awesum paladin from legendia without him doing anything about it.

And any game in which there is anything similar to any sort of terrain penalties and stuff which do actually play a big role in the game?

That's what has kind of distanced me from these games; it's like positions or terrain advantages are completely unimportant and the games turn into a chore. Checking every enemy's movement range so I get to deal the first blow is as tactical as it gets, or so it seems.

Power Dolls has opportunity fire though it's not a typical SRPG.

Most SRPG don't have ZOC or AOO because it is too limiting to the AI with most units having at most 1-2 range unlike DnD where the enemies have a lot more ranged attack options. SRPG has no random encounters if you could just place a tank at a choke point and stop everything by himself it kind of trivializes the difficulty of the missions. There are games that ZOC is beneficial to the gameplay but they usually don't have typical defined tank role and/or let you customize your character to create super-tank.

 

[damicore]

Is there any japtactical rpg where there are things similar to enemy supression or attack of oportunities? I really hate the fact that you can't pin down enemies in any way or form which renders any kind of defensive tactic useless. There is no way an enemy unit can pass just besides my awesum paladin from legendia without him doing anything about it.

And any game in which there is anything similar to any sort of terrain penalties and stuff which do actually play a big role in the game?

That's what has kind of distanced me from these games; it's like positions or terrain advantages are completely unimportant and the games turn into a chore. Checking every enemy's movement range so I get to deal the first blow is as tactical as it gets, or so it seems.

Power Dolls has opportunity fire though it's not a typical SRPG.

Most SRPG don't have ZOC or AOO because it is too limiting to the AI with most units having at most 1-2 range unlike DnD where the enemies have a lot more ranged attack options. SRPG has no random encounters if you could just place a tank at a choke point and stop everything by himself it kind of trivializes the difficulty of the missions. There are games that ZOC is beneficial to the gameplay but they usually don't have typical defined tank role and/or let you customize your character to create super-tank.

IIRC you could make a pretty good tank in FF:T, it just was useless, playing with a full archer/summoner/wizards party seems the most clever choice. Melee units are pretty much useless. I have to admit the ammount of customization and game breaking shit in FF:T is what drove me to finish it back in the day though.

There are games that ZOC is beneficial to the gameplay but they usually don't have typical defined tank role and/or let you customize your character to create super-tank.

What would those games be?

 

[felicity]

What would those games be?

Games that emphasize rock-paper-scissors and limit customization of your units. Advance Wars, Vantage Master, Daisenryaku etc. ZOC is especially critical in Vantage Master because the death of your master means instant loss. These are more strategy games than RPG though.

 

[Damned Registrations]

There's stuff like Brigandine or Master of Monsters, but they offer limited customization, pretty much just branching class trees with level gains. Like felicity said, when customization is more prevalent things like flanking bonuses and focus fire tend to take the place of ZOC as the element that discourages poor tactics. However, many of them simply set the difficulty bar way too low. But there's certainly no need for either AOO or ZOC for the combat to be deep or challenging, it's just one of many elements that can be used.

Take something like Shining Force as an example: the terrain effects are pretty trivial, and there are no flanking bonuses or free gangbang attacks or anything of the sort. However, (when the parameters of the enemies supply a sufficient threat) positioning is still extremely important, because there are walls to hide behind, rivers to fire ranged attacks over, choke points to abuse, area of effect spells to use/avoid, etc. Sloppily using the same plan over and over won't work nearly as well as thoughtful placement.

Conversely, stuff like ZOC is totally irrelevant if your forces have such an advantage they can handle a 3 on 1 fight anyways. Balancing enemy power levels vs the player's is the most important factor in these games I find. As long as the pieces you're using are at least as interesting as say, chess pieces in their variety, other systems to complicate things are just nice gravy.