How come no one but the people of the Codex

[IncendiaryDevice]

 

[Sigourn]

Congratulations, you play Skyrim the way it was designed to be played (with the players trying to finish the job of game development, and succeeding at the more basic things). I'm still right though. You like the things Skyrim does, so you are ready to accept its mediocrity. You are that much more accepting because Skyrim was the first w'rpg' you played.

First you said I liked Skyrim because few games do the things it does. Now you say I like it because it was my first western RPG. Which one is it?

 

[Delterius]

Congratulations, you play Skyrim the way it was designed to be played (with the players trying to finish the job of game development, and succeeding at the more basic things). I'm still right though. You like the things Skyrim does, so you are ready to accept its mediocrity. You are that much more accepting because Skyrim was the first w'rpg' you played.

First you said I liked Skyrim because few games do the things it does. Now you say I like it because it was my first western RPG. Which one is it?

Lots of games do the things that Skyrim does and they do it better. Morrowind, for an instance, does almost everything Skyrim does and many times better. It has a better designed world, a better setting, a better character progression system and even a better plot. It can also be modded to hell and back. Yet its also old and some people feel unimmersed if characters aren't voiced. The old adage always applies, Skyrim is wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. Mediocre and Marketable. That's what I said, on top of you being a newfag. Since I put both proposals in the same post, its safe for you to assume that I consider both explanatory.

 

[Sigourn]

Lots of games do the things that Skyrim does and they do it better. Morrowind, for an instance, does almost everything Skyrim does and many times better.

No, it doesn't.

The only things that Morrowind truly has going for it are faction progression and the plot. Lack quest markers is nice, but doesn't stop most of the quests from being shit. Everything else is mediocre. I'm honestly surprised how it rated so high in the Codex's Top 70 cRPGs poll.

Just like Skyrim, Morrowind is unplayable garbage in its vanilla state. Mods make it a much better game by tweaking all the things that are already there, but have so much untapped potential. For instance:

- Factions having actual requirements for joining them.
- Factions and NPCs denying services unless you belong to their factions, and otherwise demanding extra payment.
- Leveling being much slower, and balance actually being a thing that makes progression satisfying.

 

[Delterius]

The only things that Morrowind truly has going for it are faction progression and the plot.

And the setting, the world design, the character system, the magic system and even the dungeon design. Technology aside, Skyrim only does conversations better because Morrowind didn't actually have a lot of them (and Skyrim has very simple ones). Even the Art Design in Morrowind (unmodded for the most part) is better. Morrowind's buildings, cities and characters truly feel like they belong to that province, as opposed to the ''''''Nordic'''''' High Fantasy boringness that permeates Skyrim as a whole.

 

[Sigourn]

And the setting, the world design, the character system, the magic system and even the dungeon design.

You've got to be kidding me. Gothic had a great setting, world design, character system, and dungeon design. Not Morrowind.

That said, I'm glad you think those things make Morrowind better. I'd rather play the game where modded combat is more engaging than the "miss miss miss" spam-clicky combat of Morrowind, even when taking care of the stamina bar, and dungeons consist of more than the same copypasted caves and ancestral tombs. Just like Obsidian with New Vegas' unique weapons, Bethesda thought they could get away with shitty dungeons by adding bits and pieces of cool equipment here and there. In reality, Morrowind's dungeons are some of the most boring I've ever seen, mostly because they attempt to mimic "real life" (and thus ancestral tombs have a logical size, caves aren't highly elaborated, there's nothing to be found on Kwama mines, and so on).

Is it the better RPG? Definitely. Is it the more fun game? Subjectively speaking, I think Skyrim is much more fun. Modded Skyrim vs modded Morrowind isn't even a contest: Skyrim + Requiem shits on Morrowind every day of the week.

 

[buru5]

Lots of games do the things that Skyrim does and they do it better. Morrowind, for an instance, does almost everything Skyrim does and many times better. It has a better designed world, a better setting, a better character progression system and even a better plot. It can also be modded to hell and back. Yet its also old and some people feel unimmersed if characters aren't voiced. The old adage always applies, Skyrim is wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle. Mediocre and Marketable. That's what I said, on top of you being a newfag. Since I put both proposals in the same post, its safe for you to assume that I consider both explanatory.

Nice meme. Morrowind has its share of problems. Skyrim does some things more effectively.

The character progression system ultimately comes down to personal preference. Complexity does not always make something better. Ultimately in Morrowind to progress as intended you need to grind skills, but that's far too tedious so you just end up paying for skill ups from trainers instead which I don't really find very immersive. You can also fuck up your character by accident at the very beginning of the game. Skyrim streamlines this process with far less grinding and skill trees that makes things far less cryptic, it's also far less forgiving about your character choices. Morrowind also requires you to basically look shit up to do well early on, which is something a game should never really do. Everything should be explained within the game. If you have to go to uesp to figure out how shit works than you've failed at game design. But one is not necessarily better than the other, it comes down to personal preference. I would argue that Skyrim actually makes you feel like you're becoming more powerful more effectively than Morrowind. Combat is another issue, while this is brought up a lot, missing in Morrowind is counterintuitive to the way the game was designed as action based, Skyrim's combat feels more weighty and far more satisfying than Morrowind's. Weapons have decent weight and spell casting actually feels like you're fucking with primordial magical forces.

Morrowind has a more complex spell, alchemy, and enchant system, but also allows you to effectively break the game very easily. But yeah, I will concede that Morrowind gives you more options in regards to how you handle encounters because of this, since Skyrim removed a lot of spells, but it also removed a lot of pointless spells and bloat (Jump for instance). Removing levitation, while this was done in Oblivion (as were most of the spells removed), was a mistake but I understand why it was done, not that that makes it any better.

The game worlds are about equal to me. While Morrowind has more settlements and towns, most of them end up looking exactly the same with the exception of a few unique places (and those exceptions are very cool), but ultimately Morrowind is brown with mushrooms and mountains and Skyrim is white with Nord shit and mountains, they're both limited. Skyrim is very detailed also, but fast travel prevents most people from noticing all the small details.

The quests in both games are garbage. They're all fetch quests or "go here", but in Morrowind you need to pay attention to what is told to you since there are no quest markers. Morrowind has more guilds but ultimately it's just more fetch quests until you eventually become guild leader which effectively offers no benefits, whereas in Skyrim you get some sort of long term reward for doing so (constant flows of gold, special chambers, etc). This is a case of quality over quantity, more does not always equal better. The main quest is more complex in Morrowind, and far more interesting in my opinion, but it's effectively a "ur Jesus go save duh world", which is the same as Skyrim. The writing in Morrowind is far better, but ultimately I don't think writing makes a game better than gameplay mechanics do. I'm playing a video game, not reading a book, although it's a plus it's not make or break.

NPCs in Skyrim are more believable than Morrowind's NPCs. Morrowind makes it seem like more effort was put into the NPCs, but when you analyze it most NPCs are simply Wikipedia articles with links, and all the NPCs say the same shit which is not very immersive, especially when it's word for word exactly the same. "I'm a warrior I blah blah blah", "I'm a farmer I blah blah", "Ashlander legend tells of blah blah blah". NPCs are shit in both games, but at least Skyrim doesn't try to hide that fact with walls of text to make the illusion that they actually tried to make them unique.

I'd go on but I'm pressed for time. Point I'm trying to make is: both games have their fair share of problems. If you focus on these problems one can make the argument that both games are total shit. Thankfully both games do some things right, so it just depends on how you look it. Aka subjective.

 

[Delterius]

You've got to be kidding me. Gothic had a great setting, world design, character system, and dungeon design. Not Morrowind.

I don't actually think much of Morrowind, I just happen to think even less of Skyrim. That said, Morrowind does have better setting and world design than Skyrim. Its dungeons aren't ultra convenient to the player and there's an actual character system that, as easily broken as it is, adds some incentive not to be a jack of all trades and grandmaster all the same. Adding reason to use all the items you can find to make up for your weaknesses as opposed to stealth archerying through the game.

"miss miss miss" spam-clicky combat of Morrowind,

This is an RPG. Get better at character development, already.

and dungeons consist of more than the same copypasted caves and ancestral tombs.

No, that's Skyrim where everything has draugrs with some retarded image matching puzzle in the middle and a physical way out at the end. Morrowind has plenty of tombs, sure, but actually look like tombs. Not theme park rides of the cancelled Nordic Mummy movie.

Bethesda thought they could get away with shitty dungeons by adding bits and pieces of cool equipment here and there.

Well, at least Morrowind tries that. On top of its more organic dungeon design, it adds interesting items to find. You reach Seyda Neen, hear rumours of the Master's Ring and then you may choose to go and find it. Or not. There's no quest compass to assist you there and once you get to the tomb, its a small dungeon that actually appears to be a tomb. Not a long ass corridor with pretty backgrounds and retarded puzzles. Just a place where someone buried their dead. In Skyrim there's nothing really. All the dungeons look the same. All the items are boring as fuck. Its not as bad as Oblivion, but even the daedric artifacts are pitiful.

In reality, Morrowind's dungeons are some of the most boring I've ever seen, mostly because they attempt to mimic "real life" (and thus ancestral tombs have a logical size, caves aren't highly elaborated, there's nothing to be found on Kwama mines, and so on).

Yes, a great fantasy world to explore and feel immersed in. Not my best experience, but there were some memorable moments here and there? With Skyrim it was all just boring. Everything is equally epic. Even the cows drop ancient treasures.

 

[Delterius]

Nice meme. Morrowind has its share of problems.

I don't actually think much of Morrowind, I just happen to think even less of Skyrim.

The character progression system ultimately comes down to personal preference.

Morrowind has a character system, proven by how stupid people and newfags keep trying to kill things at melee without the proper character and/or level of power.

Skyrim is a mediocre action adventure game where every power feels the same and stealth archery is the best way to skip the boring combat.

Morrowind has a more complex spell, alchemy, and enchant system, but also allows you to effectively break the game very easily. But yeah, I will concede that Morrowind gives you more options in regards to how you handle encounters because of this

Yes though I'd add that as pitifully breakable as Morrowind is, there's something to break in there. Skyrim is just boring all year around.

This is a case of quality over quantity, more does not always equal better.

This is completely wrong. Both games are troves of mediocrity and shit in their quest design. There's no quality or quantity here for comparison here. Morrowind's rewards can so easily break the game that they rarely matter outside of the early levels. Skyrim's rewards are so plentiful and the game so mediocre that nothing ever matters.

The quests themselves, as you said, are all boring in principle. This is no Arcanum. There are few if any memorable moments in here. The key difference between Skyrim and Morrowind is that the former is more cinematic and more quickly jousts the player to the Chosen One position of doing all the Epic Things in the World, whereas Morrowind makes you walk through dirt early on and attempts to custom the experience to your created character.

There I'd agree that its a matter of personal preference, but considering that neither game handles this very well I still give this point to Morrowind because at least there its not all a phony thinly veiled atttempt to turn extremely boring things into a string of 'epic moments'. And, at the very least, I remember Morrowind being more freeform in the way you can deal with certain quests. In Skyrim, everyone is an Important NPC that cannot be killed or insulted by the Glorious PC.

NPCs in Skyrim are more believable than Morrowind's NPCs. Morrowind makes it seem like more effort was put into the NPCs, but when you analyze it most NPCs are simply Wikipedia articles with links

Yes they are, which is why I said that Morrowind has a better setting than Skyrim. You can piece something interesting out of their dialogue. And their dialogue is crucial, as you said, to the exploration of the world. NPCs in Skyrim went from that the bare minimum needed to string a conversation, in a pastiche 'nordic' high fantasy world and that always ends with 'let me mark that in your map'. It is mediocre. There's no way around it. What gain there is, the NPC schedules, don't make up for it. Even Dragon's Dogma has NPC schedules.

NPCs are shit in both games, but at least Skyrim doesn't try to hide that fact with walls of text to make the illusion that they actually tried to make them unique.

There was no illusion of that in Morrowind. If anything, the actual illusion here is that this:

'Oh King Hrothgarus killed the Witch Lulmandra and that's why we have a civil war.'
'Oh you mean the mudcrabs? Let me mark that on your map.'

*Out of dialogue* You're good at Conjuration aren't you? Make an arrow for my knee.

Passes for an NPC.

If you focus on these problems one can make the argument that both games are total shit.

They aren't. However, I'd argue that Morrowind is actually greater than the sum of its parts as it does some things exceptionally. As opposed to Skyrim, which is mediocre all around -- as per the testimony of its fans.

Aka subjective.

Subjectivity is not an excuse to spout vague platitudes, for not putting thought into things or just being plain wrong.

 

[Sigourn]

I don't actually think much of Morrowind, I just happen to think even less of Skyrim. That said, Morrowind does have better setting and world design than Skyrim. Its dungeons aren't ultra convenient to the player and there's an actual character system that, as easily broken as it is, adds some incentive not to be a jack of all trades and grandmaster all the same. Adding reason to use all the items you can find to make up for your weaknesses as opposed to stealth archerying through the game,

Morrowind's setting is more interesting, but that's really about it. Unless you are actively getting entangled in the lore of the game, it's just as banal as any other RPG's. Morrowind's dungeons are already ultra convenient to the player: most of them are way too small when compared to Skyrim's, and what's worse, they all look basically the same. Once you've been to one ancestral tomb, you've really been to almost any ancestral tomb. The only exception that comes to mind is that one with the Nord burial. On the other hand, Skyrim's caves and dungeons are all consistently different, some actually have very cool layouts despite the linearity.

Also, I don't know what game have you played, but "having to use all the items you can find to make up for your weaknesses" is something that applies to Dark Souls, not Morrowind. In fact, I traced a comparison not long ago on another forum: whereas in Gothic finding one single potion feels great, in Morrowind finding a shitload of potions, beverages, gold piles and spare equipment feels unrewarding.

This is an RPG. Get better at character development, already.

Sorry, I'd prefer the action RPG that actually makes sense, as opposed to "somehow this crab is dodging all of my attacks". Is that your idea of "roleplaying"?

Well, at least Morrowind tries that. On top of its more organic dungeon design, it adds interesting items to find.

"Interesting" items that are just as pointless as those of Skyrim, because there's no challenge in Morrowind. Notice how even a shitty piece of armor in Gothic makes so much more difference compared to the Mentor's Ring (not Master's).

I urge you to take your nostalgia glasses off and replay vanilla Morrowind. The game isn't anywhere as interesting as you or me can make it seem through written words. One of the few games that live up to that is Planescape: Torment, but not Morrowind.

 

[Sigourn]

I wish there was a "stealth archery" equivalent in Morrowind. Instead of that, we simply must kill enemies in the same boring as fuck "spam click" combat, and you can't even properly hide in the shadows like you can in Skyrim, meaning stealth is already a whole different level of unengaging.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Does Skyrim excel at providing interesting things to see and interesting places to go?

For the most part, not really. Part of what makes Skyrim so fun to me is that I feel in a real world, thanks to the nice looking (modded) graphics. That way, even the most boring mountain is beautiful to look at, and that stops it from being boring.

 

[Delterius]

Instead of that, we simply must kill enemies in the same boring as fuck "spam click" combat

Again, this is an RPG. Get good. You can two shot shit in Morrowind from the get go.

 

[Delterius]

Unless you are actively getting entangled in the lore of the game, it's just as banal as any other RPG's.

That's what lore is for, to have something to engage with. Which Skyrim doesn't have.

Morrowind's dungeons are already ultra convenient to the player: most of them are way too small when compared to Skyrim's, and what's worse, they all look basically the same.

Convenience is the symptom, not the disease. Otherwise, people wouldn't be asking for better dungeon design and the return of Mark and Recall. Skyrim's dungeons not only look the same (there's the dwemer and the draugr templates, have fun!) but they are all phony. Morrowind's feel as though part of that world. Skyrim is a theme park ride in Disneyworld.

Once you've been to one ancestral tomb, you've really been to almost any ancestral tomb.

Ancestral Tombs, Dwemer Ruins, Sixth House compounds and Kwama Mines all have a very different feel towards one another.

On the other hand, Skyrim's caves and dungeons are all consistently different, some actually have very cool layouts despite the linearity.

They are all linear and therefore have the same layout. Stop being distracted by the pretty lights you had to mod in otherwise you'd puke.

Sorry, I'd prefer the action RPG that actually makes sense, as opposed to "somehow this crab is dodging all of my attacks". Is that your idea of "roleplaying"?

Actually, I prefer good Action RPGs. Dark Souls. Dragon's Dogma. Morrowind isn't an Action RPG, its just an RPG. Attacks don't connect just because of the graphics, its all in the die roll. Skyrim, on the other hand, is a terrible Action RPG. Less than mediocre.

"Interesting" items that are just as pointless as those of Skyrim, because there's no challenge in Morrowind.

I agree. Skyrim's itemization is pointless and Morrowind's whole game falls apart too quickly. At least finding the Master's Ring felt memorable. Though I guess those crossbows Bethesda carelessly threw around everwhere with DLC are broken enough as they are.

I urge you to take your nostalgia glasses off and replay vanilla Morrowind.

Played only once, vanilla in 2012. It was (subjectively) a great experience if only because I played it after getting bored with Skyrim's retarded puzzles. Critically, its much less than it felt to me, but still way better than Skyrim.

I wish there was a "stealth archery" equivalent in Morrowind.

Setting and combat of Skyrim in an image.

 

[Sigourn]

Again, this is an RPG. Get good.

Are you saying you are not skilled enough to stick a knife on a dog or a cat in real life? Because that's literally what you are implying: that somehow ridiculous dice rolls in Morrowind are acceptable, such as missing attacks on a slow-ass crab.

You know what, forget it. Another on the Ignore list.

 

[Delterius]

Again, this is an RPG. Get good.

Are you saying you are not skilled enough to stick a knife on a dog or a cat in real life? Because that's literally what you are implying: that somehow ridiculous dice rolls in Morrowind are acceptable, such as missing attacks on a slow-ass crab.

I am not skilled enough to ensure that luck and happenstance aren't factors when lunging at an attack dog with a knife. I'd wager most people (and your shitty character) aren't. Also, Abstractionism 101: Know that this isn't a matter of simply connecting the pointy end of your shitty knife with the enemy, you can also fail to damage a giant fantasy armored crab. IE, you failed to hit a vulnerable spot. You are just that weak, or that was a glancing blow. Which is why Strenght is a factor in lots of RPGs.

You know what, forget it. Another on the Ignore list.

Git Gud Newfag.

 

[Alkarl]

I was a newfag once, until I took an arrow to the knee.

Try tackling some of the codex top 70/100. It'll make you a man. Well, it'll at least give you some wisdom. I used to be like you, fuck, I thought Skyrim was guut, Fall Out 3 was the pinnacle, and all the cool kids hung out on GameFaqs jrpg boards.

Then, one day, Final Fantasy 13 and Star Ocean 4 smacked me right in my little weeab nuts and Skyrims ending left me feeling totally raped. I started lurking here and started hitting up Abandonia and GoG.

For every beautiful vista, every perfectly captured water texture, and every delightful skybox Skyrim hands you, it takes something else away.
It takes away your agency. It takes away your choice. It takes away consequence. It takes away difficulty. It takes away/insults your intelligence. It takes away your time.

So, "fun"? If your idea of fun consists of being constantly monitored by a baby-sitter and spoon fed every little thing while being told exactly what you can and can't do, how to play, how to have "fun". Then yeah, Skyrim is a blast. It is certainly one of the most impressive fantasy walking sims to date.

 

[Sigourn]

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Akratus]

Allow me to quote myself:

I'm just glad based Poland is willing to push graphics as well as have solid RPG aspects

Sorry old people

it's 2013. I want shit to look real life

Why don't you go outside then.

 

[buru5]

Morrowind has a more complex spell, alchemy, and enchant system, but also allows you to effectively break the game very easily. But yeah, I will concede that Morrowind gives you more options in regards to how you handle encounters because of this

Yes though I'd add that as pitifully breakable as Morrowind is, there's something to break in there. Skyrim is just boring all year around.

This is a case of quality over quantity, more does not always equal better.

This is completely wrong. Both games are troves of mediocrity and shit in their quest design. There's no quality or quantity here for comparison here. Morrowind's rewards can so easily break the game that they rarely matter outside of the early levels. Skyrim's rewards are so plentiful and the game so mediocre that nothing ever matters.

What's completely wrong? That Morrowind has more content than Skyrim or vice versa or that quantity does not equal quality? Your response to the statement is completely irrelevant. I was simply stating that Morrowind has more content than Skyrim, a larger world, more quests, and more guilds. Which is completely accurate. I guess reading comprehension isn't your forte, although you seem to use big words but I guess any ol retard can google a big word these days. Either way, all your responses are opinions, just like mine. I guess you can't objectively prove shit, kinda makes your entire argument irrelevant.

'Oh you mean the mudcrabs? Let me mark that on your map.'

Are you referring to Skyrim or Morrowind here? They both do this.

Have you actually played the games in question here or are you just channeling codexer autism?

 

[ore clover]

Spoiler

Spoiler

I won't lie, those neon lines hurt my eyes. Fortunately there's always the dos version.

Ah, that's better.

 

[decaf]

Why are we ragging on a guy who likes Skyrim as an animal hunting, looking at shit and sneaking simulator? It's not like he doesn't know the shit parts of Skyrim, and the bits other games excel at but Skyrim sucks at.

He just likes a animal hunting, looking at shit and sneaking simulator. Nothing wrong with that.

Though I'm p. sure Far Cry and other Ubisoft generic open world titles do a similar experience too. But they're not fantasy and you don't have modding.

 

[Falksi]

Never ceases to amaze me how many folk try to logicalize an experience which is essentially meant to be emotional.
Morrowind was superb. Yes you can pick many faults with it, yes the combat sucks, but as an exploration experience is simply stunning, due to the amazingly crafted world, music, enemies, atmosphere & magic system.
It's alright to sit there and pick it apart on reflection. But it absolutely gave us one if the best exploration experiences to date Imo. Skyrim by comparison is mundane, predictable & repetitive. Still enjoyed it to some degree, but it didn't absorb me anywhere near as much as vanilla Morrowind.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

Why are we ragging on a guy who likes Skyrim as an animal hunting, looking at shit and sneaking simulator?

He just likes a animal hunting, looking at shit and sneaking simulator. Nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, but Morrowind is better because it is old.

Fuck, the Codex can feel like some weird cult at times.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Never ceases to amaze me how many folk try to logicalize an experience which is essentially meant to be emotional.

Emotional platitudes are no more a basis for discussion with other people than are logical tautologies. If we do not rationalize about our experiences and articulate them in a manner that others can understand, we can never relate those experiences to others, and that begs the question, "Why talk of our experiences at all?"