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Grand Strategy Imperator: Rome - the new grand strategy from Paradox

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by LESS T_T, May 19, 2018.

  1. Monocause Arcane

    Monocause
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    Well, it does make a bit of sense in terms of ancient campaigns. The biggest impacts of elephants was on enemy morale. Horses and men absolutely panicked at the sight of those hulkering beasts most of the time, especially horses and men not accustomed to the sight. Horse archers being more efficient vs archers also makes sense, since it's a rapidly moving target that flanks you, moves in and out of range, really hard to hit, could move and shoot.

    They wouldn't run around in big clumps as they sometimes do in Total War games. They would spread out very loosely, so large volleys of enemy arrows would barely have a target. They would run circles around your position, and disperse when in trouble, only to run back when you were vulnerable again. While you're desperately trying to shoot anything with your men around you, you become easy pickings for enemy lancers and/or light horse who take you on when you're distracted.

    Horse archers were a blight even during the Mongol invasion some 1500 years later, and IIRC it was the advent of gunpowder with really fast, quite penetrating projectiles - and artillery with its hugely superior range - that rendered them less of a terror on the battlefield. Before then, it was equivalent to trying to fend off fighter planes with handheld rifles.

    Re: horse archers vs elephants - it would take a shitton of arrows to take an elephant down. Especially arrows shot from the less powerful bows horse archers sported (you needed a pretty small and/or flexible bow to be able to achieve a full draw on horseback, you're limited in how you can lean on horseback, another factor is that it's pretty much an art to hit anything with a bow from horseback at reasonable distance), which didn't have the kind of range and penetrating power you'd expect from fe. a longbow or a crossbow. IIRC the ranged weapon of choice against elephants were javelins or stuff that would start frightening the elephants themselves, like setting fire onto something. Even then, remember that horses really didn't like the smell and sight of elephants. So when you're trying to fire at an elephant that's surprisingly fast, and you need to get fairly close because of your small bow, your horse goes mental, runs away, throws you off target. Might even try to throw you off its back.
     
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  2. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    Eastern Europe hasn't changed all that much.
     
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  3. Monocause Arcane

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    You offended me. Fuck my sister or I marry your mother. Otherwise we must praise Triglav.
     
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  4. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    It really bears emphasizing: Odds are that a given person in ancient times had no idea what the fuck an elephant was, or that things that big could exist.

    It really distorts one's thinking a bit if one doesn't remember all the little conveniences one has today that were nowhere to be seen for vast majority of history. A very good example of this in regards to pre-modern warfare is just trying to picture commanding an army without radio. Or in case of elephants, living at a time before printing press much less the camera and internet so your information intake is severely bottlenecked.

    A most valuable quote in regards to approaching pre-modern times is what the narrator says in Crécy: "These things are going to look primitive to you, but you have to remember that we're not stupid. We have the same intelligence as you. We simply don't have the same cumulative knowledge you do. So we apply our intelligence to what we have."
     
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  5. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

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    That is not entirely true,the elephants were a new thing during the Hanibal's war,at the midway they wore down their fear effect and became a problem for Cartage. They were easy to deal with and frequently could panic and fuck up their own troops. Also fucking horse archers could hit a elephant,we are not talking about the eye of a single soldier amongst many,we are talking about an animal big as building! The smell is also irrelevant,they are shooting it from 50-100 meters,not getting to it to snuff its armpits or whatever they are called. elephants are used mainly to break the tight Roman formations,thus against infantry. Arrows do deal damage to it,it is not like in the games where you have to lower its hp to zero to kill it. Imagine being poked with 100 needles at once,at very least it panics it.

    Archers are the hard counter to horse archers.They were used as a front line,thus giving them extra range. They would pepper the skirmishing horse archers and then retreat behind the infantry line. Archers can use better and bigger bows,giving them extra range and accuracy. Horse archers as you pointed out are stuck with short bows.


    Anyway,in reality there wasn't a +10% bonus damage against X unit type. It was all about army composition,terrain and tactics. You can't really put that in such a game,the closest thing that they managed was CK2. Those numbers just show they poor knowledge on such things and just their general laziness. You could easily make a system where the effectiveness of different units changes with time,and the enemy. A nation that have spend a decade fighting against x country that specialize in x type of units should have better skillz at killing them than someone else.
     
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  6. razvedchiki Liturgist

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    steady infantry supported by cavalry/light inf could repel horse archer based armies,the romans won or had draws against parthian/sassanid and later hunic armies.
     
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  7. Agame Arcane Patron

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    A single field battle was only important in the context of a campaign, strategic concerns such as sieges, ability to supply armies and control vast territory could be just as important. But none of this stuff will ever be modeled in Paradox games due to the high level abstraction, and I think they have zero interest in developing complexity in their combat systems. The closest they got to simulation was HOI3 and that was overwhelmingly hated by the general Paradox community.

    We will NEVER see anything beyond minor iterations on EU4/CK2 model for combat in Paradox games. Unless they suddenly hire a wargaming grognard who also gets into a top dev position.
     
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  8. razvedchiki Liturgist

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    pre ck2 paradox community didnt have many problems with hoi3,all the fucking casual retards who want to larp being a king that came with ck2 are the reason hoi4 became the mess it is.
     
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  9. Monocause Arcane

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    They weren't indestructible by no means. They were a blight though - and when talking about Romans, you're talking about a people with an insane amount of combat expertise, skilled commanders, well-developed logistics. And a huge professional army that Europe hasn't seen for quite some time and that at its time of height was literally unmatched. We're maybe even talking XVII-th century when armies in Europe reached the level of professionalism that Romans had - and it probably took even more than that to match the Roman expertise in fighting in different climates, with peoples of different cultures and fighting styles. That'd probably be colonial superpowers of the XVIII-th, perhaps only Britain and the French in the XIXth century and the US in the XXth century (that's not Europe though).

    Romans were also renowned for their adaptability - be it in religion (they incorporated numerous deities from subjugated peoples), construction, tactics. When the Romans saw some good shit, they took it in, adapted it, made it properly Roman. Inability to do that would be the bane of all armies, including the aforementioned British and French and today, the US. Facing horse archers and associated tactics would decimate the absolute majority of contemporary European standing armies and probably all of levied ones as it required a swift adaptation of doctrine and tactics, which most people really suck at.

    Lots of the expertise that Romans had was not present in many encounters with horse archers. The mongols were particularly adept at a never-ending skirmish and refusing a straight up battle. You could potentially inflict some casualties, but your troops were constantly harrassed by hordes of horsemen that came and go. It's kinda similar in effect to the fairly modern guerilla warfare concept, and in places like Afghanistan or Iraq even the US struggle and continue to suffer losses of men and material that would never happen in a straight-up fight.

    fantadomat Re: elephants - of course they would hit the elephants, but that's not the point. Elephants would be unleashed in decisive moments when the engagement is already well underway. People are dying left and right, everyone's screaming and shouting, you barely know what's going on - and all of a sudden this huge beast tall at 3m and weighing 5-6 tons shows up, making incredible noise.

    Most people without proper training would shit themselves in that scenario. And they did, and that was the point - not a sustained battle between elephants and a column of enemy troops. Still, it's difficult to accurately represent nuances like that in Paradox games so I guess they try to sorta represent it by giving bonuses, which I find makes sense as an abstraction.

    Also, I know I'm nitpicking at this point but horses would definitely be able to smell elephants from 50-100 meters away. Not sure about that but I think it's possible that even a human would be able to smell an elephant from 50-100 meters away - depending on wind direction. At that range horses would also be able to see and hear them.
     
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  10. Agame Arcane Patron

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    Partly, but there is a large amount of HOI2 vets who could not stand HOI3 to the point of skipping it entirely, and seem to enjoy HOI4s watered down and simplified systems, so regardless of what we want Paradox is catering to the larger audience, and of course casuals. As you say there are so many more people who just want to map paint and build pretty looking empires without any complexity or challenge from combat.

    HOI3 was a glimpse of the beautiful potential of Paradox grand strategy with actual complex and meaningful combat. Snuffed out by one million drooling morans...
     
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  11. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

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    Ahhh half the Carthage's generals are women in the latest dev clash.....sjws cuckz to the end. I am sure they would have won if they sent Hanibal's wife instead of him.
     
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  12. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    Heavy historical expertise man!
     
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  13. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

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    You are misgendering by using nazi slogans like "man"!

    Also the co-host is a massive cuck,constantly whines about certain jokes and apologizes every 39 seconds. It came as no surprise when he spit the beans that he is from marketing and is a frenchy.

    Here the video if anyone cares:
     
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  14. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    It was on purpose.
     
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  15. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    I guarantee you this shit isn't an accident. If they are smart it may be a test to gauge how receptive their fans (read: their forum dicksuckers) are to feminist agenda pushing (very) and if they aren't smart it's still just hamfisted bullshit. There WILL be female leaders in the most retarded places possible, mark my words.
     
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  16. The Brazilian Slaughter Arcane

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    Is HOI3 worth it? I actually never played, I was never a big fan of HOI so I pretty much stopped at HOI DH (which is post HOI3, tho). How does it compare to Darkest Hour?

    Lol woman commanders. Weird. CK2 was very faithful in that regard, its actually fun that with Holy Fury, you can totally turn your nation into the land of the amazons if you feel like it.

    I do wish women and men had different default, stats. Women should have personnal combat rating penalties by default.
     
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  17. AwesomeButton Personally falsified the US election results Patron

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    HOI3 was too ugly for me to enjoy and its performance was terrible, with the EU3 engine. I never spent any significant time playing it. However, I think it has the most detailed mechanics concerning the hierarchy of the order of battle. DH is still the best HoI in my book.
     
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  18. Vaarna_Aarne Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

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    I'm ambivalent on the matter. HoI3 never quite got the same level of support (official or modwise) as HoI2 or HoI4, and a lot of its features don't really stand out that much since its core is very much HoI2. The chain of command isn't really that impressive, it's mostly just busywork or a means of automation.

    I suppose the thing that does make HoI3 something interesting is that the number of tiles in each given province makes for some potentially extremely elaborate maneuvering and breakthroughs, and in terms of terrain and infrastructure HoI3 has definately the most balanced and interesting map of the series (well, once impassable terrain due to low infrastructure was added in), though without mods it kind of shoots itself in the foot and nerfs almost everyone except Germany, USSR, and Kwa to the point of non-functional, so that terrain doesn't get as much mileage as a fantastic force equalizer then.
     
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  19. Life of the Party Arcane

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    Show Spoiler

     
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  20. Fedora Master Arcane Patron

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    Ay lmao
     
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  21. Makabb Arcane Shitposter Bethestard

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    that map is yuge
     
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  22. Life of the Party Arcane

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  23. Kem0sabe Arcane

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    Very detailed features video.
     
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  24. Makabb Arcane Shitposter Bethestard

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    I'm slightly optimistic about this, this looks like it embodies the main idea of paradox grand strategy type game which started with europa universalis 1 - conquering and building an empire, the huge map with many small territories (like in hoi) will make for a long play where you have to fight on many fronts.
     
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  25. Life of the Party Arcane

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