In which game did you have the most fun just thinking about character builds

[Cynic]

ToEE got around this by actually making resting very risky, something which ALL DnD games need to do.

It did? From what I remember you just had the chance of being interrupted by enemies which were basically just free XP.

Early on it was pretty risky. Resting in the Moathouse without an over leveled party could mean certain death. The game gets ruined by OP mages, but this is really a DnD problem more than anything. They should have given way more monsters fire resistance, or upped the chance for casters to miscast spells.

 

[Jasede]

<- never rested mid-dungeon or mid-travel in BG/NWN/ToEE.

I'm just that good.

(Background: the DMs I know would spawn epic mindflayers on our asses if we so much as dared to think about resting in the middle of a situation where it wasn't realistic.)

 

[I_am_Ian]

If you have a single drop of true CRPG blood in that pale, doughy, bloated basement dwelling body of yours then you will know the answer has always been and can only be Wizardry 8.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Raise your hand if you spent 3+ hours rolling for stats in Baldur's Gate until you had a 18-00/18/18/18/18/10 monster

 

[Johannes]

ToEE got around this by actually making resting very risky, something which ALL DnD games need to do.

It did? From what I remember you just had the chance of being interrupted by enemies which were basically just free XP.

Early on it was pretty risky. Resting in the Moathouse without an over leveled party could mean certain death. The game gets ruined by OP mages, but this is really a DnD problem more than anything. They should have given way more monsters fire resistance, or upped the chance for casters to miscast spells.

The problem with the mechanic is that it encourages you to rest while you're still in good strength and able to handle the interruption force. But if you try and push it as much as you can until you're all out of spells and HP, then you'll be in trouble. So a party that rests once will have a much harder time than a party who rests five times in the moathouse.

 

[Malakal]

I liked character building in NWN 1 and 2. With all the races and prestige classes it was something I planned. Especially in MoTB where you start at high enough level that you can try interesting builds and not be stopped by their early weakness.

 

[JamesBond]

This thread is a good platform to discuss (or dick-sux) the kind of building environment you prefer.

I prefer that the build generator be deterministic; i.e. you should not have to roll for stats. As Jasede points out, this only leads to unnecessary hassle with the die. The simple solution as practiced by IWD2, NWN, NWN2 of limited building point is very appealing. They are adjusted just so that you can make fairly diverse collection of builds without feeling that you are somehow restricted, right at the start. By the end of the NWN2 series, we have a reasonably large number of races, classes and PCs to plan out for future. To demonstrate this just visit NWN2db where people STILL discuss Min-max builds (granted that after 6 years its not almost cooled to a crawl and all min-maxes discovered) and there are still very interesting builds yet to discuss.

That makes me feel that NWN2 _ expansions somehow got it right. They really pinned it correctly where the optimum is.

The only fault with the game itself is that some skills are USELESS in the actual campaign. SOZ fixed that a bit, but it could be done a billion times better as shown by some of the fan made content; ref. Conan, hyborean adventures.

Overall, in my opinion although the die rolled stat games had better design, if we consider just the character generator (which I am assuming is the real question in the OP) then NWN2 was the best example of it that I thoroughly enjoyed/enjoy.

 

[Phelot]

Problem is, a lot of people, including myself, enjoy rolling for attributes and for that matter, rolling for successful increases in skills such as RoA. To me, fixed stat points make character gen boring because there are typically just a few ways to max your particular race/class and you're going to go for that build unless you are LARPing or whatever, which I don't mind, but still... rolling forces you to eventually settle with something and make it work. On that note, I actually don't like the ability to save a roll to revert back to, makes it a gamble trying to find something better.

I do think fixed stats can work, especially in games that don't have hard ruled classes like DnD. In fact, I only ever felt it was boring in NWN, IWD2, etc.

 

[JamesBond]

That is of course your choice, I guess. But I would argue differently.

I am claiming all of the above from the perspective of actually trying to succeed respectfully at the game. In NWN or NWN2 it does not so much matter I guess, as long as you take one of the 'talking' skills. But if you play Conan, you will soon realize that the game (which is a nice low level adventure) WILL punish you for making bad decisions. That is where I find that design has actually penetrated the gameplay. Moreover, Conan, gives MULTIPLE options to finish the quest so not just one build but any build with some thought put into it can actually make it successfully.

The point being that games that allow you to feel the consequences of you choices need to fine tune said choices, may that be narrative ones or ones from character generation.

 

[Gozma]

Stat-rolling works best in games that are already heavily randomized/procedural so that the "take what you get" ethic is baked into the game. Meaning stuff like X-Comish strategy games or roguelikes.

C&C and spergin' RPGs (e.g. 3ED D&D) are already ABOUT making an imaginary dude or dudes (through choices) so why cockblock you at chargen with randomness?

 

[JamesBond]

Not really correct.

I think you are dumping all kind of randomness in one.

This is how I would classify it:

1) Randomness in character generation
2) Randomness in narrative
3) Randomness in Conflict resolution

I would claim that the third is good for most save and load RPGs as it allows a bit of dramatic tension during combat. Especially in Turn based games where otherwise all the tension would vanish ones you discover the optimum setup. This does require by willing design to make the combatants equally strong.

The Randomness in character generation is addressed previously. I stand by that.

Randomness in Narrative does not work well with good writing, as it simply means providing a huge load of parallel story - branches that are very resource heavy.

 

[Outlander]

Fallout 3.

 

[Cynic]

The problem with the mechanic is that it encourages you to rest while you're still in good strength and able to handle the interruption force. But if you try and push it as much as you can until you're all out of spells and HP, then you'll be in trouble. So a party that rests once will have a much harder time than a party who rests five times in the moathouse.

Yeah I agree. I think they should have made chance to fail spell casting way more prevalent. It pretty much has a 100% success rate and that makes the gameplay pretty uninteresting later on. Even still the game was ridiculously fun at low levels.

 

[Norfleet]

The game I had the most fun just thinking about character builds? Honestly, it was some old MUD of thoroughly forgettable name, years ago. Now, I know, you're thinking, "How can you remember this experience and yet not the name of the game?". Well, that's easy. When you've played like a hundred of these, most of which were named in some manner of fantasy madlibs soup, seen the rise and fall of dozens of otherwise identical games....they all sort of blur together.

What made character builds truly interesting was that character building was competitive. You weren't just trying to beat some piece of static content that was designed to be beaten. You were trying to beat the game itself. To design the mathematically perfect character. To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women. Okay, maybe not the last part. Most of the players back then didn't actually have any women. Hell, this was back in the days when online chargen just assumed implicit maleness.

So I set out to create a god. They said I'd never actually level that, it would cost to much. They said I was mad to try. But I showed them! I showed them ALL! Even the gods themselves couldn't figure out what had happened. I even intentionally planned the fouls, capitalizing on the punishment scheme to gain MORE POWER.

 

[Tigranes]

Starting an Arcanum playthrough now and it's been 3 days of vacillation. I've done half of Shrouded Hills now while only putting points in Dodge, Persuasion, first of Herbs, and now can't choose whether to go for a Melee Tech, Thiefy Tech (poisons/arachnids), Gun Tech or even Bow Tech. After several playthroughs, Arcanum's the best at promising all the cool things I can do and making me hesitate from that point of view.

 

[visions]

C&C and spergin' RPGs (e.g. 3ED D&D) are already ABOUT making an imaginary dude or dudes (through choices) so why cockblock you at chargen with randomness?

Why cockblock my char(s) with points, when I can get better stats with randomness as long as I care to sperg long enough, more like.

 

[Frusciante]

I liked NWN character building the best. Too bad the rest of the (singleplayer) game was mediocre at best.

Currently I really like character building in Path of Exile with the gigantic passive skills 'tree'.

 

[catfood]

C&C and spergin' RPGs (e.g. 3ED D&D) are already ABOUT making an imaginary dude or dudes (through choices) so why cockblock you at chargen with randomness?

Why cockblock my char(s) with points, when I can get better stats with randomness as long as I care to sperg long enough, more like.

Why waste time clicking the reroll button when you can just give all your characters 18 in all stats POR style?

 

[Kane]

guild wars 1

 

[DraQ]

Morrowind and Wizardry 8 certainly provide a lot of fun thinking up the builds. Wouldn't say that it's more than actually playing the games, but it's certainly quite substantial, causing restartitis and frequent "to the build mobile!" moments.

P.S. I respected mondblut more when I didn't know he's just in to roflstomp stuff and thought he liked tactics and such.

 

[Shadenuat]

I'll admit games like Fallout, Wizardry 8 and Arcanum were great on thinking about character builds, but the game where I was thinking about it the most AND had fun was, uh, Diablo 2 (Battle.net).


Sword barbarian, lance barbarian, WW barbarian, buff-shout barbarian, 2 handed barbarian... fire-ball sorc, Meteor sorc, Blizzard Sorc, tele-lightning sorc... skeleton-spawner necro, golemancer with Thorns curse, bonemancer, poison-necromancer.. list just goes on.. and on.. and on...

 

[Micmu]

ToEE.
Once, it took me like 3 hours to build myself a dream party. :-O

 

[SerratedBiz]

3E D&D games, Wiz8, Arcanum, DA (derp)... point based systems are the best. Spending time rerolling your stats to perfection is not part of the character building process, it's just the mini casino aspect they implemented for you gamblers.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

p.S. I respected mondblut more when I didn't know he's just in to roflstomp stuff and thought he liked tactics and such.

Maybe he likes both?


upload picture

 

[NecrosD]

First and foremost I'd say Arcanum so many different possible builds I spent ages thinking of all the different possible combinations you could make it was kinda mind boggling since it was one of the first RPG's I'd ever played. Secondly I'd go with the ROA series I spent ages going through making rolling up characters for it, don't think I've spent longer in any other game at character creation - may have to go replay it soon this time with someone who speciallises in the Elements school been able to summon elementals would be great