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Baldur's Gate Is Aerie from BG2 underage?

Sarathiour

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By the way, wotc does not even respect their own canon, drizzt is 21 when he leave menzoberranzan, and ToB retcon your mother in being a priestess of bhaal.

Never picked Aerie, but I guess I will have to next time.
 

Roguey

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You made the original claim that the aging table was tossed out. Thus, it's your duty to provide the proof.
I did: the elf player protagonist. The fact that not a single character brings up Aerie's age or has an issue with her being in a relationship (either with the PC or Haer'Dalis).

Which says nothing about Haste or Wish spells being used. Since Gorion was a wizard of high level he would know those spells and could have used them to prepare a non-human Bhaalspawn by aging them.
More head canon.

The protagonist of the Bhaalspawn saga is a human named Abdel Adrian which is canon. Your character you create in the game is not. As such, the entire story is written for a human character. Thus, we revert back to the age rules for Aerie where she is an elven teenager that is the equivalent of 16-18 years old.

Bioware had nothing at all to do with "Abdel Adrian." That's post-facto continuity that Wizards did on their own.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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So what if she's underage, she's cute.
t.
possibly_retarded.png


Elf lovers, not even once.
 

Stoned Ape

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So if a player sat Aerie in the corner of the map and had her cast haste on herself a few dozen times, would that definitely make her not underage according to 2e rules?

(TBH I think the question's pretty academic as I'd never even consider having one of my characters romance the wonky-faced whiner)
 

Lacrymas

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Roguey, you like stalking devs, don't you have direct contact to Gaider or someone else on the BG2 writing team? ;d The question is obviously not going to sort itself out and it brings even more implications along with it, not only whether Aerie is underage or not. It also comes up frequently enough that it's worth having an answer.
 

JamesDixon

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I did: the elf player protagonist. The fact that not a single character brings up Aerie's age or has an issue with her being in a relationship (either with the PC or Haer'Dalis).
Who is not canon. Nice try and absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You know better than that.
More head canon.
No, that's the AD&D 2E rules which Baldur's Gate uses. Since the events prior to the game are influenced directly by the ruleset your cop out fails. Thus, it's you with the head canon. I presented the rules. If you have an issue with it then take it up with TSR not WotC.
Bioware had nothing at all to do with "Abdel Adrian." That's post-facto continuity that Wizards did on their own.

Sounds like copium to me. Bioware got the license to make a game off of the AD&D 2E rules. Since Wizards of the Woke is the owner they decide what is canon or not in this case. Also, it's not post-facto as the novels were written in 1999, 2000, and 2001. I would say that the novel's overall plot would have always been the canon including the main character. As such, Abdel is the main character while your characters in the game are fan fiction.

EDIT: The author of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II is Philip Athans who was the Forgotten Realms line developer at the time. He outranks Bioware's storyline and input.
 

Lacrymas

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The novels are non-canon, though. Oh, and Bioware did actually have something to do with Abdel Adrian. IIRC, one of the pre-generated names for the protagonist in the BGs is Abdel Adrian.
 

Lacrymas

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The events of Baldur's Gate, the games, are canon, but the novelization with Abdel Adrian isn't.
 

Roguey

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Roguey, you like stalking devs, don't you have direct contact to Gaider or someone else on the BG2 writing team? ;d The question is obviously not going to sort itself out and it brings even more implications along with it, not only whether Aerie is underage or not. It also comes up frequently enough that it's worth having an answer.

I doubt anyone would answer or even remember. It's been decades. As far as I know, this is what Gaider said about Aerie:

https://www.shacknews.com/article/1...y-and-the-infinity-engine-era-of-rpgs?page=15
Craddock: How did the option to romance characters come about? It wasn't in the first Baldur's Gate. Was that something James wanted to hit this this time around?


Gaider: We discussed, "Let's give them arcs," and then the idea of romances came up. We initially were supposed to have six: three female, three male. We were interested in that, but what the romances would be? I don't think we [knew]. It wasn't like we had direction such as, "Make it emotionally resonate." We were just trying to write a good story. As I recall, that's all we were trying to do. It was a little weird, because romance in a video game seemed like a weird thing. We weren't sure how we would do this.


I remember when I was sitting down and trying to write romances, I was just trying to make it an interesting story. I was trying to figure out what to do with Anomen. That was actually my first romance, and I didn't know what to do with him. I didn't create his character. The first part of his character writing had been done by, I think, Rob Bartel, one of the other writers. And [the character] was kind of an asshole. I had followed up on that, here's this arrogant paladin guy, based on what Rob had started. Then at some point I remember James saying, "Okay, he's the first male romance." And I was like, "Really? Really? Anomen? You think...? Okay. Sure. I'll figure it out."


I was trying to take Anomen and figure out, okay, how would you romance this guy? I didn't give any thought, really to who the audience was or if it would be an emotional thing. I just thought, If this were a story I were writing, like a book, how would it play out? Drama is just a thing that has to happen. I didn't feel pressured to make it engaging for the player. I just thought, Well, what do I feel like? What do I think is cool?


Same thing when I wrote Aerie and Viconia [DeVir] romances. They were kind of dropped in my lap because I wasn't supposed to do the female romances at all, but Luke was falling way behind, so they said, "Why don't you do these?" So I was like, okay, they're very different from each other, so I took two different [approaches]: Aerie being the damsel in distress, Viconia being a femme fatale. When I did tabletop, I would sometimes give my players romances. If they were romancing a player in my game, how would I write that story? That's all.


I was thinking about what we had done. We weren't even sure that the romances would work, or that they'd make it into the final game. But we had no idea, honestly, that they'd be popular. I think when the game got released and we saw they were popular, it was a complete surprise to us. So from my perspective, I was making a side quest like the other side quests. That really was the entirety of it.

I doubt very much thought was put into any of it.

Who is not canon.

In a role playing game, whatever decision you make is canon to that playthrough.

No, that's the AD&D 2E rules which Baldur's Gate uses.

In the AD&D 2e rules, elves are immune to charm and sleep, and yet these features aren't present in the BGs.

Since Wizards of the Woke is the owner they decide what is canon or not in this case. Also, it's not post-facto as the novels were written in 1999, 2000, and 2001. I would say that the novel's overall plot would have always been the canon including the main character. As such, Abdel is the main character while your characters in the game are fan fiction.

EDIT: The author of Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II is Philip Athans who was the Forgotten Realms line developer at the time. He outranks Bioware's storyline and input.

"The novels written by a hack writer with a tight deadline who was given not-yet-final outlines of the plot were always meant to be the real versions" What the fuck am I reading here? Do you think movie novelizations are the true canon and movies are just fan-fic? Planescape Torment was a fan fic and the Planescape Torment novelization is the "real" version?
 

JamesDixon

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The events of Baldur's Gate, the games, are canon, but the novelization with Abdel Adrian isn't.

Prove it.

I'll put up my evidence that has Abdel Adrian from AD&D 2E up till DANDINO 5E. Who loses? Oh you do.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abdel_Adrian#Bhaalspawn_Saga

Here are all of his canon appearances.

Adventures
Murder in Baldur's Gate

Novels
Baldur's GateBaldur's Gate II: Shadows of AmnBaldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal

Video Games
Baldur's GateBaldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword CoastBaldur's Gate: Siege of DragonspearBaldur's Gate II: Shadows of AmnBaldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal

More canon goodness that names Abdel as the canon character.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Bhaalspawn_crisis
 
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JamesDixon

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In a role playing game, whatever decision you make is canon to that playthrough.
Incorrect, as the canon is now set in stone using the novels and their characters.
In the AD&D 2e rules, elves are immune to charm and sleep, and yet these features aren't present in the BGs.
Looking at the manuals for BG 1 and 2 it lists that Elves have 90% resistance against sleep and charm. Reading AD&D 2E Player's Handbook on page 29 it says, "Elven characters have 90% resistance to sleep and all charm-related spells." Elves have never been immune to sleep and charm. This applies to AD&D 1E as well. In D&D Basic, Elves do not gain that ability. So yes, that feature is in the game and has been in the AD&D CRPGs beginning with the SSI Gold Box series.
"The novels written by a hack writer with a tight deadline who was given not-yet-final outlines of the plot were always meant to be the real versions" What the fuck am I reading here? Do you think movie novelizations are the true canon and movies are just fan-fic? Planescape Torment was a fan fic and the Planescape Torment novelization is the "real" version?
Just because you dislike the novels doesn't mean their status as canon is disputed. This is you making up a strawman argument to easily win. Face it, Abdel is canon and the PC in the game is not. He's so canon that he's used in 5E today.
 

Volourn

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Aerie us an adult. She is older than the PC.

An elven PC is the same age as a human PC and is considered an adult.

The 'good' (neutral) Jaheira does not have an issue with your age. Nobody in game blinks about age when the PC fucks any of the characters.

You grew up with Imoen as her slightly older sibling.

Abshit is not game canon. The PC is who you make. It us not a requirement to read some retartet book to play the game.

Bottom line all romances are age appropriate but not race appropriate. Need some sexay female dwarves.

This thread is my modern masterpiece. Thank you. :)
 
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copebot

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At the time the game is supposed to simulate, it was legal and encouraged to marry women after menarche, so as long as that's the case, the fornication would have been illegal, but it would have been licit within marriage. Much like today, it was not that complicated legally to back-date a marriage if both parties were willing to make it right. In fact, by having sex, the two parties may have been seen to have implicitly consented to marriage, which upon discovery, would have made it so that both parties would have been legally obliged to marry.

However, being adventurers, it would have been very challenging to make any charges related to illicit relations stick, because adventurers are always going from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and this kind of crime was firmly under local jurisdictions, not being a capital crime. If Aerie accused the MC of rape, it might have fallen under the jurisdiction of a higher court, and her lack of maturity -- and any questions related to miscegenation -- could have been considered aggravating factors. Miscegenation laws during the Middle Ages tended to be more concerned with Muslim-Christian pairings than racial issues alone because there just weren't large scale encounters between multiple races as began to happen in later centuries. If FR were not anachronistic and illogical, you would expect there to be a whole complex set of laws maintained by different races to prevent illicit pairing. If that existed, the relation would be per se illegal, but it'd be an open question as to which party the liability would fall on. Based on the way the romance is portrayed (at least from what I remember, probably last played the game over 10 years ago), the liability would fall on the MC for miscegenation if they were not an elf. But that opens more questions as to whether or not the winged elves are elves or not for the purposes of a miscegenation law which is not even in the FR source books.

It would have been unlikely that any authority would take any issue related to this all that seriously, because circus performers would have been considered to be very low class and basically already expected to be prostitutes. Much like today in which many things are technically illegal but the government doesn't really care about most of it, that was the case in the Middle Ages as well. You would have to worry more about civil penalties from lawsuits if you spoiled a rich girl because her parents would take you to the cleaners for diminishing her dowry value and any other similar contract values that would have emerged from her marriage. Since Aerie is an orphan that you stole from the circus, she is SOL on that front.

Considering the laws in Amn at the time of the game restricting spellcasting, I think Aerie would be unlikely to try to bring charges like rape or seduction because such a case in an Amnish court would inevitably draw attention to her illegal spellcasting.

Forgotten Realms is already very anachronistic in a lot of different ways, so we can only guess at the differences in legal systems within FR. I think I only read one source book and have read none of the novels so can't say one way or the other. FR would not try to adapt real world legal standards even if it would have created some interesting conflicts because it was written by typical corporate hippies. But this whole discussion is basically anachronistic because in history, people would have found relations outside marriage to be more morally abhorrent than anything related to age, notwithstanding romantic poetry which tried to create a counterculture of aristocratic dalliance. The bourgeois ideal of a working love-bond demonstrated in BG2 is really something from modernity and it firmly at home in the 20th century -- it's not like the chivalric ideal of romance which tends to seem really weird to modern people.
 

Roguey

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Incorrect, as the canon is now set in stone using the novels and their characters.
Like I said, post-facto canon. Baldur's Gate wasn't written with a specific canon in mind. If that were the case, it'd work like Mass Effect or Dragon Age II and be a game with a predefined protagonist.

Looking at the manuals for BG 1 and 2 it lists that Elves have 90% resistance against sleep and charm. Reading AD&D 2E Player's Handbook on page 29 it says, "Elven characters have 90% resistance to sleep and all charm-related spells." Elves have never been immune to sleep and charm. This applies to AD&D 1E as well. In D&D Basic Elves do not gain that ability. So yes, that feature is in the game and has been in the AD&D CRPGs beginning with the SSI Gold Box series.

This rule doesn't actually exist within the game's code. Josh Sawyer had to make sure it was included in Icewind Dale.

Just because you dislike the novels doesn't mean their status as canon is disputed. This is you making up a strawman argument to easily win. Face it, Abdel is canon and the PC in the game is not. He's so canon that he's used in 5E today.

You're trying to argue using materials that weren't included in the game themselves. Saying that I should disregard the fact that you can be be an elf player character because "that's not canon" and it's not canon because some other writer unaffiliated with Bioware or the decisions they made decided that the main character should be a male human. That's fine, Wizards can do what it wants, but the game wasn't written with that in mind, hence post-facto canon.
 

Roguey

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BTW JamesDixon here's an important interview with that BG novelization writer you like so much https://www.shacknews.com/article/1...finity-engine-era-of-rpgs?page=10#detail-view
Athans: What was always the biggest challenge for us was the disconnect at the very heart of the RPG tie-in novel and that's that the very best RPG adventures are all about set-up and loose ends, following plot points to various possible conclusions that players arrive at with their own characters after DMs have altered parts of the story to fit their own worlds, and so on. But a novel, obviously, has to start with characters and follow a plot through to a satisfying ending.


This is why strict novelizations like Baldur's Gate never really worked
, while novels set within the Forgotten Realms world, using D&D as basic worldbuilding rules (how magic works, etc.), were often huge best-sellers. You're essentially looking in on R.A. Salvatore's FR campaign, then switching over to Ed Greenwood's, then Elaine Cunningham's, and so on. But none of those stories in anyway finished the Forgotten Realms story, or prevented new stories from being told both by Wizards of the Coast and by individual players and DMs all over the world.
...
Craddock: How much autonomy did BioWare have in developing Baldur's Gate?


Athans: As far as I know, no one in R&D, and certainly no one on the books team, interacted with BioWare on any level. I honestly have no idea what they were given in terms of guidelines or feedback.


Craddock: How fleshed out was Baldur's Gate, the setting, before BioWare's team made their game?


Athans: Baldur's Gate is one city in the Forgotten Realms setting, but as is true of most parts of the Second Edition Forgotten Realms world there was actually an enormous amount of detail on the city's various residents, its history, etc., contained mostly in FR game supplements but also in various novels that moved through and/or around the city. I can only assume that some material was somehow made available to BioWare.


I honestly don't know everything that might have been added, having never played the game
, but a majority of the characters in the game, as far as I could see from a distance, were new to the video game and not drawn from previous canon. That, in and of itself, was not at all a bad thing. The strength of the Forgotten Realms setting always was the space left for additions to the canon—new characters, especially.


Craddock: You’re the novelist who adapted BioWare’s Baldur’s Gate CRPG into a book, and also wrote the eponymous sequel. Those novels are divisive among fans, to say the least, so I wanted to extend an opportunity for you to clear the air. What was your interaction with BioWare—either directly between you and the studio, or between BioWare and Wizards?


Athans: I was given an Excel spreadsheet with slim character descriptions and a very basic story flowchart that traced paths through the game depending on what class you chose. From that I put together a short proposal—basically a character sketch for my “PC” [player-character] then more or less pushed him through what I felt was the most interesting path through the story. And that was it.


Craddock: What challenges did you face in adapting the games?


Athans: I had no contact with BioWare at all, and neither did my editor. All communication was funneled through Interplay. I had no idea what changes were being made at BioWare from that initial story document to the finished game and never received any feedback on the novel from anyone at either BioWare or Interplay.

I was told by someone at Wizards of the Coast that Interplay said it, the novelization, was “fine.” Full stop.

Craddock: What were your thoughts on any of the unique characters and lore BioWare’s team added to their take on Baldur’s Gate?

Athans: I honestly don’t know everything that might have been added, having never played the game, but a majority of the characters in the game, as far as I could see from a distance, were new to the video game and not drawn from previous canon. That, in and of itself, was not at all a bad thing. As I said before, the strength of the Forgotten Realms setting always was the space left for additions to the canon—new characters, especially.

Additionally https://fantasyhandbook.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/my-bad-short-bad-book/

Under no circumstances should you read Baldur’s Gate. It’s out of print anyway, and please don’t bother trying to find it. This was my first published “novel,” and I wish it would disappear from the memory of mankind for all time.
...
BioWare was working on a computer RPG, under license from Wizards of the Coast, set in the Forgotten Realms world. The buzz started to get pretty positive really early and the idea was floated by someone I’ve since forgiven that we should publish a novelization of the game. Because I’m a total moron, I participated in a blind proposal process in hopes of being the person to write it. Because of reasons unknown, my proposal was picked and I was assigned to write the book. That was somewhere around Halloween and they needed the first draft by Christmas.


A “long” book wasn’t going to happen, so though I don’t remember what the assigned word count was, it was less than the average 90,000 for other Forgotten Realms novels. So I went in knowing it was going to be short and though I didn’t really hope it would be bad, I did start the process with that same sense of the freedom of low expectations.


First of all, this was a novelization, so the story was (more or less—it’s complicated, but for our purposes . . .) all spelled out for me. Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, and everyone else who came after them had already built the world, and so all of the up-front work was done. I just had to write it up.


I also went in comfortable with the fact that all I needed to show up with around Christmas was a first draft. That draft would then be read and vetted not just by my editor at Wizards of the Coast but by someone at the game studio, and together they would make sure I was in line with the spirit and the letter of the game story, and so on.


So I did my best with what time and story material I had and went for done—not for good, not for long, just . . . done.


And I was done on time, and the book went to my editor and someone—I have no idea to this day who and still think it might have been no one—and after a few weeks I got notes back from my editor, and nothing from anyone involved in the game except some kind of vague, “It’s fine.”


I was pretty sure it wasn’t fine.


After all, at that point there wasn’t even a beta version of the game to play. I was working from a very early story document and that’s it.


But it was “fine,” and a production deadline loomed before us, and almost as if we planned it, the second the book went to press we got a pre-beta version of the game that crashed too early on to tell how off the mark I was, but gave me just enough negative feedback to know I was in trouble in Chapter 1 . . .


Then the book came out to a flurry of online hate, all directed at me, the worst writer of all time, who had clearly never bothered to even play the game and . . . My short bad book wasn’t revised into a longer better book. It stayed short and bad, and though it sold a crap ton of copies, at least by today’s standards, it remains most Forgotten Realms fans’ least favorite FR book, and something of an albatross around my neck.
 

Sarathiour

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You're shooting yourself in the foot by caring about canon and considering whatever garbo is written as letter of law. Canon is decided by suits, who are going to shamelessly retcon it to whatever fit the current thing.
 

Lacrymas

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JamesDixon the novels with Abdel Adrian are 100% not canon and we've discussed this on this very forum in the past. I'll find the relevant quotes when I get back home. The Abdel Adrian from A Murder in Baldur's Gate is not the same one as the one in the novels.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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You're shooting yourself in the foot by caring about canon and considering whatever garbo is written as letter of law. Canon is decided by suits, who are going to shamelessly retcon it to whatever fit the current thing.
See WoD with V5 as a prime example of that. :vomit:
 

JamesDixon

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Like I said, post-facto canon. Baldur's Gate wasn't written with a specific canon in mind. If that were the case, it'd work like Mass Effect or Dragon Age II and be a game with a predefined protagonist.
It's not but whatever makes you sleep at night. I written want proof that the game series was never written with a specific canon in mind either from Bioware or WotC.
This rule doesn't actually exist within the game's code. Josh Sawyer had to make sure it was included in Icewind Dale.
It does now with the latest releases.
You're trying to argue using materials that weren't included in the game themselves. Saying that I should disregard the fact that you can be be an elf player character because "that's not canon" and it's not canon because some other writer unaffiliated with Bioware or the decisions they made decided that the main character should be a male human. That's fine, Wizards can do what it wants, but the game wasn't written with that in mind, hence post-facto canon.

Prove that it wasn't written with the novels in mind. I'd like that in written form from either Bioware or WotC please.

Personally, I don't give a damn what you believe. I care about the facts. The facts are that BG uses AD&D 2E rules. Part of those rules are the ages of races. They don't need to be in the code for it to be valid since you can make the characters in the CRPG in the TTRPG. Tell me in that instance that the AD&D 2E full rules do not come into play so I can laugh. Since your side of this argument has yet to produce a single shred of evidence you lose. Aeria is underage. She is roughly 16-17 years old based upon the racial write up for Avariels.

Beyond that I don't care what is canon to you or not. You decided the hill to die on was canon. You lost that battle with the actual WotC canon set down which names Abdel Adrian the Bhaalspawn protagonist of the Baldur's Gate series.

Now the funny part of all this. The PC games are nothing more than the standard adventure modules that TSR would make. You can use the included party or you can run your own character as a player or as a DM run a party of custom characters. The characters provided are the canon one. In my view, it's the same thing in TTRPG adventure modules in the CRPG.

I'm getting mighty chuckle out of all this because I absolutely fucking hate Wizards of the Woke for what they did to D&D which is why I call it DANDINO or D&D In Name Only. It has zero mechanically to do with what Gary and Dave created in 1972.
 

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