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Is dodge rolling a decline mechanic?

Lyric Suite

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And the combat is shit so there.
Incomparably better than any soulscuck that runs out of breath after swinging their sword 3 times and rolls through every attack without a care. Cope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhjFafsKlTE
In DS you wouldn't even know if the hitboxes are good because you would just roll through the attack anyway LMAO

Who gives a fuck if they are good if you don't notice?

You can tell this is just about sperging on an irrelevance if comes to dying on the hill of preferring shit combat systems because "no i-frames bro".
 

Azdul

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Streets of Rage and many other old games didn't need it. You find your spacing
The usual story goes that spacing based action doesn't work well in 3D due to depth ambiguity, hence you *need* iframe dodge buttons in 3D third person action games.

This story isn't really true though as SpikeOut demonstrates, so it's really a matter of fads and developer laziness.
You cannot see what character is doing because in 3rd person his model stands in a way. And you need 3rd person because of consoles and their controllers.

Such gameplay was new and fresh on Playstation 1 and 2. But 20 years later it's just embarassing. It's like making 'new' Pacman on PS5 with ultra-HD graphics, cutscenes and QTE.
 

Nutmeg

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You cannot see what character is doing because in 3rd person his model stands in a way. And you need 3rd person because of consoles and their controllers.
3rd person isn't the problem as traditional 2D beat'em'up greats e.g. The Punisher, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Alien vs Predator, were all 3rd person as well.

Furthermore, these kinds of games can't not be 3rd person without changing fundamentally, since the whole point of the genre revolves around the player knowing how far adversaries are from the hero from all directions at all times. I suppose you could have a rear view mirror picture in picture in first person, but that'd be a bit silly wouldn't it?
 

Azdul

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You cannot see what character is doing because in 3rd person his model stands in a way. And you need 3rd person because of consoles and their controllers.
3rd person isn't the problem as traditional 2D beat'em'up greats e.g. The Punisher, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Alien vs Predator, were all 3rd person as well.

Furthermore, these kinds of games can't not be 3rd person without changing fundamentally, since the whole point of the genre revolves around the player knowing how far adversaries are from the hero from all directions at all times. I suppose you could have a rear view mirror picture in picture in first person, but that'd be a bit silly wouldn't it?
In great arcade beat'em ups characters could face left or right.

There were no technical reasons why they could not face in 4 or even 8 directions, except that it would be a confusing mess.

Once consoles got 3d capabilities, they've immediately added 3rd person with 360 degrees freedom of movement, with various crutches. Like large gfx effects masking the fact that the successful kick physically had not connected.

These crutches do not bring us any closer to being a hero of Hong Kong karate / kung-fu movie from the 80's, beating hordes of criminal ninjas.
 
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You cannot see what character is doing because in 3rd person his model stands in a way. And you need 3rd person because of consoles and their controllers.
3rd person isn't the problem as traditional 2D beat'em'up greats e.g. The Punisher, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Alien vs Predator, were all 3rd person as well.

Furthermore, these kinds of games can't not be 3rd person without changing fundamentally, since the whole point of the genre revolves around the player knowing how far adversaries are from the hero from all directions at all times. I suppose you could have a rear view mirror picture in picture in first person, but that'd be a bit silly wouldn't it?
In great arcade beat'em ups characters could face left or right.

There were no technical reasons why they could not face in 4 or even 8 directions, except that it would be a confusing mess.

Once consoles got 3d capabilities, they've immediately added 3rd person with 360 degrees freedom of movement, with various crutches. Like large gfx effects masking the fact that the successful kick physically had not connected.

These crutches do not bring us any closer to being a hero of Hong Kong karate / kung-fu movie from the 80's, beating hordes of criminal ninjas.

This isn’t true. The reason why characters in beat ‘em ups large only face left and right is because it’s easier. There are beat ‘em ups where characters also face up and down when moving up and down, and it’s not even a tiny bit confusing, it even looks really cool, the thing is having whole different sprites for characters walking up and down means you have to make more sprites for all the characters... and people largely seem perfectly content with the characters just looking left and right.

Games didn’t exactly immediately start doing third person cameras with 3D movement when 3D came around either. A lot of the old 3D games didn’t even have 3D movement. Just going back to the beat ‘em up, Die Hard Arcade is a 3D beat ‘em up and it still functions like a traditional 2D beat ‘em up; I’m not sure Sega took advantage of being in 3D for a beat ‘em up until 1998s Spikeout a couple years later.
 

Dvd22

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I-frames are a crutch for devs who don't want to bother with putting attention into enemy design, player has i-frames = can make enemy attacks that are unavoidable by any other means.
As a player, having i-frames means you don't have to think about positioning or the direction in which you dodge nearly as much.
They're really only excusable in online environments due to impact of latency.
I think many of the most controversial topics about ER (the comically long delayed attacks, input reading, the insane tracking, spasmic nature of bosses, the roll delay) are an arms race response to the dodge roll iframes. If you replay Dark Souls 3 after playing Elden Ring you quickly find that Dark Souls 3 is much easier and the dodge roll spam somewhat works.

To me is clear FromSoft clearly wants to ditch the iframes and the dodge roll but its afraid to do so. Its a staple of Dark Souls at this point.

AC6 doesnt have any iframes and works, i know its not the same style of game but for me it was much more immersive and intuitive not having attacks magically passing through.
 

Nutmeg

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AC has always been the more monocled series in terms of action design (and game design more broadly, I would argue) but Western audiences are afraid of technology and dream of rewinding the clock 1000 years to oogabooga times, hence DS being relatively more popular i.e. because of the aesthetics. Alas. Even Fromsoft's Escaflowne like mecha fantasy game Frame Gride went unnoticed. Actually that one might be because it never got a Western release.

Well anyway, the AC games are more third person shooters than melee games so for the purposes of this thread it's an apples to oranges comparison.
 
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gurugeorge

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is Elden Ring actually a good game? Does it require constant keyboard mashing? I realize of course you have to move around using the mouse and keyboard- but is it totally required that you must block and dodge and roll around the screen like a moron the entire combat?

I prefer the combat like in Grim Dawn where there is dodging and blocking but you can get by without it at first and get used to playing and then once you are good at the game you can introduce dodging and blocking if you feel like. I actually refunded The Witcher III because I could not be bothered to do the blocking and dodging and rolling around BS, and it felt like it was defiantly going to be necessary based on the tutorial and first part of the game. I don't mind special attacks and cool downs; I really just don't like all the extra defensive stuff, especially when they are basically required to win certain combat encounters. The rolling around is especially goofy and off-putting. Combat often turns into just rolling around like a clown back and forth, its the opposite of immersive and looks ghey as hell.
If you dislike dodge rolling so much you refunded a game over it I have a strong suspicion that you're not going to like Elden Ring. Sure you can just try and avoid attacks by running away or equipping a big-ass shield and blocking your enemy's attacks (and you can easily retalliate from a block with a single press of a button instead of attacking normally). There's also the issue of how there's bosses who stall their attacks to lure you into doding early to catch you when you're off guard, which requires a better timing of your defenses. There is the option to learn every single attack of every single boss to dance around their attacks, but that requires an amount of time and 'tism that few people have patience for.

Honestly I haven't played Grim Dawn, so if you want a better opinion you might want to ask in the dedicated Elden Ring thread for a comparison.

Hatred of dodge rolling is just a meme that was downloaded into the consciousness of normies and now everybody think they hate it even though they have no clue what it is, as his post demonstrates.
Everybody knows what "it is", its not like it is some complicated game mechanism that takes deep understanding. Do you think you are special for understanding the complexities of Mario Brothers jumping on top of the magic mushrooms? Its an action game that children reflexively understand the mechanics and strategy behind with almost no thought. I did not even know there was a 'meme' about dodge rolling, it just looks so obviously out of place in any RPG where muscular knights in full plate armor are swinging enormous hammers and halberds while rolling back and forth over and over again like they are cirque du soleil performers in tights.

Its not that I don't like dodge rolling. I don't like dodging at all-- even just side to side dodging. I don't like being responsible for blocking with my shield either. If you play with mouse and keyboard you already have your hand on the WASD keys and then your other hand on the mouse with a left-click attack and usually some sort of a right click special attack or maybe healing, or special ability. Then you might have cool down attacks on the number keys and toggle run with the shift key. You will also often have a jump key and a crouch, and a block and or parry key, so to then have to fucking dodge side to side with the Q and E keys and then maybe also a roll dodge by holding down the middle mouse button while pressing a movement key in the correct direction while considering if you want maybe block instead or run or use cool downs, its all just fucking too much bullshit and its not fun, it sucks. We are up to like 17-18 keys I just described. That is not fun.

Its like some sort of game to teach typing skills or something, it includes most the keys on the keyboard. That is fucking terrible game design to be mashing nearly all the keys on the keyboard. Maybe there should be some cool tripping moves? Stick out your foot and trip them? I mean there are maybe 3 or 4 unused keys. Perhaps taunting by sticking your tongue out? Every key should be put to use, the more the better I say.

But in reality this type of game design sucks. You may enjoy doing it, but you are wrong and have the incorrect opinion and poor taste. Its terrible game design that does not allow actual enjoyment of the game. Less is often more. Like strip down your fucking game into less but more impactful decisions that allows a balance of stress with the ability to still sometimes enjoy what is happening on the screen. Who cares about the graphics if you are just concentrating on typing all the time? The actual correct and right way to design an action RPG, which is still supposed to be an RPG after all, is to not make it 100% player skill based, but instead make those shitty, mundane blocking and dodging skills non-player skill based and instead based off the ability of the character the person playing the game has taken partial control over.

edit: lol @ all the butthurt gen-Z adderall addicts. I realize most of them can't really relate since they play all their 'old skool rpgs' like dragon age 2 on walmart TV's using controllers while sitting on their smelly fart couches.

Get a mouse with a few more buttons. Thumb buttons 4 and 5 (as they're usually called) are great for things like dodging, especially if you can modify them (or modify any other mouse clicks/presses - presses are great for grenade throwing or "heavy" attacks, they feel "onomatopoeically" right) with SHIFT/CTRL/ALT for added subtleties (in fact adding modal keys to mouse clicks/presses opens up a huge area of mechanical convenience for m/k players, and more games should implement the functionality).

I do get the point re. goofy-lookingness. But when you're engaged in the gameplay flow, and if you have a suitable (high reflex or agility) build, then it can sit right. (Heavily armored high STR characters with big heavy shields dodging and rolling is the limit for me though, it does look and feel silly.)
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
(Heavily armored high STR characters with big heavy shields dodging and rolling is the limit for me though, it does look and feel silly.)
I mean most Souls games (including Elden Ring) make parrying with a shield or simply being a heavy armor tank who soaks damage a valid playstyle, with maybe the exception of a few bosses who can't be tanked like that.

There's videos on beating the entirety of the games without using the dodge roll mechanic, like this:


So while it's the most obvious way of evading damage, it's not the only one, and heavy armored characters with shields are even encouraged to use other methods of fighting, prioritizing block and parry, because with heavy equipment load your rolls become shorter and less effective.
 

Damned Registrations

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Get a mouse with a few more buttons.
I used to do this, and the buttons are nice, but I also found it led to a lot of accidental clicking while just trying to quickly move the mouse. Maybe I'd have gotten more used to it with enough time, but I'm also not interested in shelling out 60-80$ every year for a 'gamer mouse' that cost an extra 50 cents to make over a 5$ one, which is still designed to have the mouse wheel stop working right after the warranty expires.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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To me is clear FromSoft clearly wants to ditch the iframes and the dodge roll but its afraid to do so. Its a staple of Dark Souls at this point.
Creating an RPG that is less action-oriented and more dependent on character statistics, with generally slower and more deliberate gameplay, would be an excellent excuse for ditching the dodge-roll, or at least locking it behind certain character types. :M
 

Nutmeg

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To me is clear FromSoft clearly wants to ditch the iframes and the dodge roll but its afraid to do so. Its a staple of Dark Souls at this point.
Creating an RPG that is less action-oriented and more dependent on character statistics, with generally slower and more deliberate gameplay, would be an excellent excuse for ditching the dodge-roll, or at least locking it behind certain character types. :M
Congratulations, you just reinvented the Western Diablo-like ARPG i.e. a combination of DPS race, game of chicken (with rhythm in applying potions) and a slot machine. Ironically the game of chicken aspect makes players push their luck and it becomes quite frenzied anyway.
 

Nifft Batuff

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Today dodge-rolling is ubiquitous even in 2D indie games. So much that self-imposed challenges to go through these games without using dodge-rolling is starting to be a thing.
 

Machocruz

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There are beat ‘em ups where characters also face up and down when moving up and down, and it’s not even a tiny bit confusing
Not to mention the entire Japanese 2D fantasy ARPG genre during the 16-bit era from Alcahest to Beyond Oasis to Terranigma.
They keys to everything are 1.) attack lines being clear, which in 2D games they are by default since there is no depth perception issues, especially in side scrollers or top downs, and 2.) appropriate attack vectors for the perspective being used. For example, in top-down games there are usually two attack elevations at most: low-line (answer: jump over) and 'normal' line (which essentially hits on your low, mid, and high line and the answer is to move out of the line and/or range of attack). Since the developers back then had brains, they didn't do dumb things like having high-line only attacks that require ducking, which would be pointless and hard to differentiate from mid in a top-down game. In any case, there is no actual 3D plane to deal with, even in beat 'em ups everything operates on a 2D plane.

That's not to say that i-frame evade of some kind is absolutely necessary in 3D third person, as Spikeout demonstrates, but the enemy attacks have to be designed with that in mind and I think that's too much effort for some developers, or they want to prioritize the enemy having some cool looking/flashy attack that comes in at an unclear angle.

The most pointless thing to me is 2D games having i-frame dodge; completely unnecessary, only a few games did it back then but now all the indies are just doing it because their favorite 3D games do it.
 
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3 others

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SWxKfrF.gif

"Dodge roll was always here. Even before man was, dodge roll waited for him. The ultimate mechanic awaiting its ultimate practitioner." -Joseph McCarthy
 

Spukrian

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To dodgeroll away from your enemies, see them miss their attacks and to hear the lamentations of players who need to git gud?

Seriously though, I played only one game where dodging was important and I was terrible at it. From Software games look like they're fun but I know I would be terrible at them and the experience would just be frustrating, so I avoid them.
 

Blutwurstritter

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The spacing problem is largely due to the camera view. I can perfectly gauge the range of attacks in Soul Calibur 6, due to its mostly side on view. The problems begin when you have an over the shoulder camera. This makes it much harder. The side on clearly has difficulties with more than one enemy, and you need maps/level design that allow for it, which is probably hard to do for typical 3D action games. I'd like it if someone tried it to make it work, because I enjoy the kind of combat from the Soul Calibur games, but I never got warm with any of those "Souls likes".
 

Lyric Suite

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To dodgeroll away from your enemies, see them miss their attacks and to hear the lamentations of players who need to git gud?

Seriously though, I played only one game where dodging was important and I was terrible at it. From Software games look like they're fun but I know I would be terrible at them and the experience would just be frustrating, so I avoid them.

You are missing out Souls is not just about the combat and even that wasn't as hard as it was made out to be until around DS3/ER.

DS1 should be within the ballpark of everyone. The game is mostly about learning what the boss does and less about your reflexes, with the exception of parry which however isn't something you are forced to learn (but might want to eventually since it makes things easier in the later games).
 

gurugeorge

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To dodgeroll away from your enemies, see them miss their attacks and to hear the lamentations of players who need to git gud?

Seriously though, I played only one game where dodging was important and I was terrible at it. From Software games look like they're fun but I know I would be terrible at them and the experience would just be frustrating, so I avoid them.

You are missing out Souls is not just about the combat and even that wasn't as hard as it was made out to be until around DS3/ER.

DS1 should be within the ballpark of everyone. The game is mostly about learning what the boss does and less about your reflexes, with the exception of parry which however isn't something you are forced to learn (but might want to eventually since it makes things easier in the later games).

It's funny, I've mostly missed out on these types of games because I'm more on the game-as-simulation side of things, more into the potential immersion in another world that games offer, so to me, having to re-do something and learn it is absolute anathema. (The only time I did anything like that was a jumping puzzle section years ago in Hexen lol)

I do understand that it's a classic thing, going right back to the early days of arcade machines and all that and I do understand the sense of satisfaction in overcoming the challenge, but it's too much towards the gamey-game side of things for my taste. There is no re-do irl, life is linear, so saving in games is always meta (in the sense of being a irl thing outside the game world) and so is "restarting the level" in order to learn it.
 

Lyric Suite

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Maybe playing arcades as a kid prepped me up for it, but i think it's also a matter of temperament.
 

Lyric Suite

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I'm thinking the roll exists because it's the only thing that can fit the long i-frames, visually speaking.
 

Ezekiel

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SWxKfrF.gif

"Dodge roll was always here. Even before man was, dodge roll waited for him. The ultimate mechanic awaiting its ultimate practitioner." -Joseph McCarthy
Haven't played it, but that's a cool roll, actually. Very few wrestling moves in 3D action games.
 

Damned Registrations

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Games do fine without dodge rolls in 3D. Ironically, they'd be a lot more useful and make more sense in a shooter but they've never been in those AFAIK. I guess Warframe has the slide. But even for melee focused games like PSO, it was fine without a dodge button. Just makes the combat less about twitching and more about predicting behaviour. So don't need to perfectly space an attack, the point is to be able to evade it by a wide margin simply by walking/running.



If that boss fight were made today you wouldn't be able to walk out of any of those attacks, they'd all require iframes.
 

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