Fallout Is Fallout: New Vegas a worthy Fallout game?

[pippin]

If I remember correctly, the only examples of c&c in FO1 that we could really call world changing were revealing your vault and the Mutant invasion, which might kill entire cities if you don't hurry up. In New Vegas, it depends on the major factions you side with, the minor ones, the ammount of quests you make, how you make them, in which order you complete them, etc. In this aspect New Vegas might be more complex in objective terms. There's no quest like Beyond the Beef in fo1, for instance. In New Vegas, your companions react to stuff you make in major and minor quests alike. It seems some people have a very special definition of what c&c is, and maybe they are talking about general interactivity. In any case, I tend to agree, interactivity might be more important than c&c, but if you have both, it's great.

 

[shihonage]

World reactivity to me is more important than the obvious, in-your-face, big-wig AAA decisions you make which "change the course of the game". Most games get the world aliveness wrong. Fallout 1/2 did it right, and they felt like worlds. F:NV did it wrong. The engine is part to blame, to be sure. The end result is non-immersive, as the whole "storefront with a mannequin display" thing stands out like a sore thumb.

 

[Polanski]

It's better than FO3, FO4, Skyrim and Oblivion.

FNV is definitely a worthy Elder Scrolls game!

 

[Valky]

It's like a great fan-fiction homage to the originals.

 

[pippin]

The engine is part to blame

C&C is mostly related to quest design. I don't understand how the enging could bring this down. You still have skills , stats, options and everything, just like in previous games. The argument in favor of engines is mostly related to direct gameplay, which seems more fitting in other points of discussion, like combat.

 

[Carrion]

World reactivity to me is more important than the obvious, in-your-face, big-wig AAA decisions you make which "change the course of the game". Most games get the world aliveness wrong. Fallout 1/2 did it right, and they felt like worlds. F:NV did it wrong. The engine is part to blame, to be sure. The end result is non-immersive, as the whole "storefront with a mannequin display" thing stands out like a sore thumb.

Aside from the obvious engine-related issues like the compressed game world, I'm not sure how exactly this relates to New Vegas. It sounds like you're describing a BioWare game or something, which is very far from what New Vegas actually is. The world reactivity arguably surpasses FO1 and FO2 in many ways, and a lot of it is systemic.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Given that you start the game with choices changing quest outcomes and faction allegiances at Goodsprings, the prison thing, and the rocket area, it sounds like you have a completely arbitrary standard that passes what FO1 does as 'choice' and what FNV does as 'not choice'. Meh.

Yeah, be a douchebag or don't be a douchebag, nothing inbetween, my experience with the 'role playing' of NV.

How is it any different from Fallout 1? What would count for "inbetween"?

There's a lot of examples especially in FO 2, FO 1 was a more straight forward game that warranted multiple playthroughs with differing class builds having a drastic effect on how your game played out and the options available. New Vegas lacked a feeling of having consequences to the choices you made, as I said the only real damn consequence I had in all of my playthroughs of Vegas was being tracked down by an NCR patrol randomly. The world New Vegas has lacks the immersion FO 1 and 2's worlds had by a vast margin. The writing was mediocre on average and entertaining at it's absolute best which was unfortunately rare. I played Vegas as a story driven action game and had most of my fun in the DLCs, those pretty much saved the game for me. I do intend on playing through it again actually thanks to this discussion, been years since I have and maybe will have a different opinion of it.

I can't really argue with you because you talk more about feel of the game, than anything concrete. Can you point to any examples of things C&C wise that F1 did and NW didn't?

It may have been as Pippin just said, sure there were missions which you could choose A or B but hardy any felt like it had any impact on the game at all whereas in Fallout 1 & 2 you notice them almost immediately. Fallout 1 had A or B (sometimes C and D) choices which branched into more choices to make from the choice you picked. Those are the reasons for the most part that I found Vegas to be mediocre as a role playing game, the writing and world weren't up to par for my taste for the most part, I got the most immersion out of aimlessly exploring rather than interactions with the NPCs which is vital in creating a proper Fallout game in my opinion. I really need to replay it though, been years.

But New Vegas had many quests with instant consequences. Goodsprings, Primm, Helios, Brotherhood of Steel questline. I mean immediate consequences in FO1 ammount to: character A is dead, faction A moves in a location where faction B used to be, player gets a different reward. All of these are featured in New Vegas. In fact C&C in new Vegas is much deeper because it features these "far reaching" consequences in addition to immediate ones.

Mediocre role playing game.

Just FYI. I understand why someone would dislike NW, and there are legitimate reasons to dislike the game, but CnC is not one of them.

 

[Mastermind]

NV shits all over Fallout 1, both as a game in general but also at what Fallout 1 supposedly did best (C&C). The only thing Fallout 1 does better are death animations, and that's usually true of isometric TB where you can do some pretty outlandish scripted stuff that would be considerably more awkward in first person.

 

[Sykar]

NV shits all over Fallout 1, both as a game in general but also at what Fallout 1 supposedly did best (C&C). The only thing Fallout 1 does better are death animations, and that's usually true of isometric TB where you can do some pretty outlandish scripted stuff that would be considerably more awkward in first person.

That is pretty much not true.

Combat is better in FO 1. FPS with bullet time cheat < Tactical turn based combat, even if simplistic.
World feels actually big. NV will always feel like a small sandbox you can traverse easily once you know it just a little bit.
Quests are a wash and so is C&C
FO 1 isn't as silly when it comes to the whacky stuff which is good. Heck NV is on par with FO2 when it comes to going overboard with stupid shit.

 

[toran]

don't forget that even if you decide to become friendly with the powder gangers (and thus either side against Goodsprings or completely ignore them) the game still gives you opportunities to double-cross the powder gangerrs by saying you'll help them out and then ratting them out to the NCR for their eventual assault on the prison.

or you can double-cross the NCR by stealing the attack plans from them and giving them to the gangers. and all this shit is just from this 1 single quest.

When it comes to fnvs' c&c, i gotta say King's Gambit blew me away with it's myriad ways of completing it. Including it's best outcome with requires you to initially fail the first attempt at diplomacy with the King. If you return to Ambo Crocker and inform him that you done goofed, he gives you the option to go to either go to Col. Hsu or Col. Moore. If you talk to Moore she'll just have you wipe out the kings entirely with a squad of NCR that just mop the floor with those boys, consequently if pick Hsu he will increase Freesides supply of electricity, food and water in exchange for the violence to stop in freeside. If you go Hsu-style Paser betrays the King and stages a coup against the kings right in front of the stage and subsequently gets riddled with holes, unless you speech him down.
Or you can just kill Pacer by lacing his jet or gooifying him as Van Graf guard and be over with it.

There's more ways to complete this quest but I think I've made my point.

 

[pippin]

Heck NV is on par with FO2 when it comes to going overboard with stupid shit.

only if you choose the wild wasteland option.

 

[Sykar]

Heck NV is on par with FO2 when it comes to going overboard with stupid shit.

only if you choose the wild wasteland option.

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

 

[undecaf]

NV will always feel like a small sandbox you can traverse easily once you know it just a little bit.

Yeah. I always felt that insisting on that one sandbox map hurt the experience as the intended scope was bigger than the maps size would allow to plausibly portray. From very early on it already felt like Fallout-in-da-hood just like Fallout 3 did before it. The game would've felt a bit better if it had adhered to the original design in that regard (to what ever extent it would've been possible).

 

[Sykar]

NV will always feel like a small sandbox you can traverse easily once you know it just a little bit.

Yeah. I always felt that insisting on that one sandbox map hurt the experience as the intended scope was bigger than the maps size would allow to plausibly portray. From very early on it already felt like Fallout-in-da-hood just like Fallout 3 did before it. The game would've felt a bit better if it had adhered to the original design in that regard (to what ever extent it would've been possible).

It should not have been a big problem to have the usual world map for traveling blend with a 3D map for the main gameplay. Other games like DSA 1-3 (Realms of Arkadia in English) did this decades ago.

 

[undecaf]

It should not have been a big problem to have the usual world map for traveling blend with a 3D map for the main gameplay. Other games like DSA 1-3 (Realms of Arkadia in English) did this decades ago.

Sure. That's partly why I said "insisting" upon the way it ended up as. I don't shit about these engines and their technicalities, so I've got no clue what it would've taken in effort to implement it (relative to time and budget and other possible factors like if it was even wanted in at any level). I'd guess it's, in parts, a similiar kind of thing when someone (and I may be misremembering the full context here, so someone correct me if I'm bullshitting) asked Sawyer - in Formspring, I think - why there was no dynamic recoil for the weapons and he answered that there was nothing in the engine to support that kind of feature, or something along those lines.

Well, anyways...

 

[Endemic]

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

One building you mean? Yeah I don't think that look was necessary. On the other hand the quests for the Kings' leader are not wacky at all. They basically function like a street gang with a common lifestyle.

 

[Sykar]

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

One building you mean? Yeah I don't think that look was necessary. On the other hand the quests for the Kings' leader are not wacky at all. They basically function like a street gang with a common lifestyle.

His minions were all over the place though. Some of the quests were nice I give you that much but it really went overboard with Elvis Presley devotion of these nutjobs.

 

[Endemic]

His minions were all over the place though. Some of the quests were nice I give you that much but it really went overboard with Elvis Presley devotion of these nutjobs.

I've already said the apparence wasn't necessary, especially as copyright issues prevented any mention of Elvis anyway. They are actually a faction integrated into the Freeside subplots and the game in general. They're in conflict with the NCR squatters, Pacer does drugs on the side (although hes ostensibly loyal to the King himself), another guy controls the water pump, they get paid for protection\keeping order. Etc.

Compare that to the hubologists in FO2 which serve no real purpose and lack much connection to anything else. President Kimball (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Aaron_Kimball) vs the extended Dan Quayle joke that was the Enclave president is also no contest.

 

[Sigourn]

Okay, let's get the fuck out of here. What the hell are you waiting for – do you think I want to get shot? Let's go.

Man of the Year.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

One building you mean? Yeah I don't think that look was necessary. On the other hand the quests for the Kings' leader are not wacky at all. They basically function like a street gang with a common lifestyle.

His minions were all over the place though. Some of the quests were nice I give you that much but it really went overboard with Elvis Presley devotion of these nutjobs.

That's one faction that has logical (if stretched) reasons to all impersonate Presley. F2 on the other hand has Hubologists - a parody of scientologist that has no reason to have developed in a post-apocalyptic world, scorpions playing chess, actual ghosts, Yakuza in the midwest US, entire town styled after 20's Gansters for no reason whatsoever and a fucking Temple of Doom. If anything New Vegas could be seen as an attempt to make less wacky Fallout 2 and somehow redeem it's silly elements. New Vegas has mobsters like New Reno, but their existence is explained by House and his devotion to the pre-war Vegas, it's still a wacky amusement park in the middle of the Desert, but now it's explained how it sustains itself.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

That's one faction that has logical (if stretched) reasons to all impersonate Presley. F2 on the other hand has Hubologists - a parody of scientologist that has no reason to have developed in a post-apocalyptic world, scorpions playing chess, actual ghosts, Yakuza in the midwest US, entire town styled after 20's Gansters for no reason whatsoever and a fucking Temple of Doom. If anything New Vegas could be seen as an attempt to make less wacky Fallout 2 and somehow redeem it's silly elements. New Vegas has mobsters like New Reno, but their existence is explained by House and his devotion to the pre-war Vegas, it's still a wacky amusement park in the middle of the Desert, but now it's explained how it sustains itself.

​

 

[Sykar]

You have an entire area paying homage to Elvis Presley. That alone nearly equals half of FO2 whacky content.

One building you mean? Yeah I don't think that look was necessary. On the other hand the quests for the Kings' leader are not wacky at all. They basically function like a street gang with a common lifestyle.

His minions were all over the place though. Some of the quests were nice I give you that much but it really went overboard with Elvis Presley devotion of these nutjobs.

That's one faction that has logical (if stretched) reasons to all impersonate Presley. F2 on the other hand has Hubologists - a parody of scientologist that has no reason to have developed in a post-apocalyptic world, scorpions playing chess, actual ghosts, Yakuza in the midwest US, entire town styled after 20's Gansters for no reason whatsoever and a fucking Temple of Doom. If anything New Vegas could be seen as an attempt to make less wacky Fallout 2 and somehow redeem it's silly elements. New Vegas has mobsters like New Reno, but their existence is explained by House and his devotion to the pre-war Vegas, it's still a wacky amusement park in the middle of the Desert, but now it's explained how it sustains itself.

I am the first to admit that they went overboard with the whacky stuff in FO2 despite it being my favorite of the FO series and in fact many of my playthroughs ended just before going to San Francisco in part due to that reason.
I do not see how the Kings are even "logical". They are just about as logical as the mobsters in New Reno if you try to apply pure logic to it but it is clear that each city was supposed to show a very specific theme of "what if" scenarios.
To some degree the Fallout 2 areas is actually pretty coherently connected once you delve into the political dependencies between all of the cities albeit it's not entirely logical.

 

[Daedalos]

FO2 definitely had its share of dumb and corny/comedic stuff, but it still outweighs NV in terms of overall story, writing and design for me, eventhough NV had better C&C and more factions that were fleshed out.


New Vegas repackaged in a true cRPG shell, would really be something to behold. Top-down 2D/3D iso with TB. That game would be on par with FO2 I suppose, but still worse than FO1.

 

[aweigh]

what everybody's been waiting for! fo 1 remake in f: nv engine!

 

[MilesBeyond]

I am the first to admit that they went overboard with the whacky stuff in FO2

Fun fact: IIRC apparently the writers didn't really have time to compare notes a whole bunch during the development of Fallout 2, and so each one of them assumed everyone else was going to do pure, dark, post-apocalypticness, and they were the only ones who were going to bring a bit of levity to the game. It's a little annoying. I honestly believe that had Fallout 2 been given a slightly longer development cycle, it could have been the CRPG to end all CRPGs. I think it was Elvis Costello who said "You have your whole life to write your first album, but only a year to write your second" (paraphrasing from memory).

Combat is better in FO 1. FPS with bullet time cheat < Tactical turn based combat, even if simplistic.

Ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree with you, but it depends on the situation. To me, the problem with Fallout 1/2's combat system is that it is utterly incapable of handling large battles. My biggest fear in Fallout 1/2 was being attacked by someone in the middle of a large settlement, because then you're sitting there for ages while every single NPC in the area takes a turn. Even at level 20 I would regularly flee from wolf packs because I couldn't be bothered to endure the tedium of waiting for twelve enemies to take their turn so I could take mine. It was actually in replaying FO1 that I finally understood the strength of RTwP - the ability to seamlessly handle large battles while still allowing the player to stop, breathe, and tactically assess the situation. Fallout's system was fantastic for small, tight battles, but went to pieces on anything big.

I guess what I'm saying is that FO1/2 combat at its best > FNV combat at its best, but FNV combat at its worst > FO1/2 combat at its worst.