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Is "kill all enemies"-win condition too prevalent in battle systems?

HansGruber

Novice
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
13
Are there any games where enemies surrender?

Not really surrendering, but Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together has fights where you (in the easiest cases) just have to kill one target and this ends the fight. Basically they surrender after their leader is killed.
 

Freddie

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Perhaps additional available options to fleeing and surrendering would be settle. In that scenario there might be easier to deal with next scenarios, what to do with prisoners or dealing with NPC's that try to exit battle map but fail escape roll.

Settle could work much like some scenarios normally available via conversation options. Instead there would be morale check once lvl 1. tough guys with short swords / handguns notice one of their ranks just got pulverised by spell / minigun blast. Rest could be done with optional dialogue options... Like (NPC) 'Look... there appears to be some sort of misunderstanding... We are here just because (reason) and maybe we could be reasonable here... like we go that way, and you guys go where ever you are going to. Actually, we never even saw you. Johnny, that is Jonny the tough 1st. level thief there who died, maybe he slipped on cowshit and broke his neck. What a sad world but no reason to get mad over it.'

Or maybe there could be certain item... like if evil party carrying stuffed head of some infamous raider chieftain with you could allow dialogue with wandering Raiders. That would leave it in player decision if to fight them or just not bothering.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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In the Gold Box games enemies will surrender or flee when faced with overwhelming odds.

Yeah, the MASSIVE Goblin encounter in Pool of Radiance was awesome! You were assaulted by this MASSIVE force of goblins (the first time I encountered that, I was like WHAT IN THE FUCK!!??! YOU HAVE TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!). But then remembering the Morale checks, killing of the Goblin Leaders quickly killed off morale and they fled. Love that encounter, one of my favorite memories (except for the annoying few who could not path find their way to the exit.....).

Pure incline. :obviously:
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
The later GBs had enemies surrender (i.e. "Goblin surrenders!" and they vanish off the play field) instead of actually fleeing off the map

Similar to that, I think having an abstract bar where killing X% of an enemy group just pops up with a message saying "enemies routed!" and the rest disappear would shave off a lot of mopping up shit time, especially in non-attritional game designs. You could make their rout bar refill if they kill one of your units, or whatever, to allow the possibility of narrow victories.

That's just cutting down trash combat shit time without getting into genuinely interesting win conditions.
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
Sounds like the issue is two-fold: meta-gaming versus role-playing. If you're meta-gaming, you only need the most efficient option; all other options are moot (sub-optimal). So if a game rewards you for slaughtering your foes more than it rewards for not doing so, then there is only the first option.

And, the other issue is how designers choose to reward players. Sure, in most games, srpgs and blobbers, etc, the goal is to maim and murder everything in your way or win the field at all costs. That's fine, and those games are enjoyable in their own ways, but on the topic of more traditional rpgs, designers really have to come up with other ways to reward gameplay.

Combat can be deep, but any rpg that focuses on it, as the main method of interacting with the world, is going to inherently be shallow in its execution. Of the more interesting systems used, you have Ultima 4 at the top where combat interactions served more of a purpose than just filling an xp bar and your gold pouch. Followed closely by Fallout, and all of its interesting options for obtaining the xps both inside and outside of combat, giving players perfectly legitimate alternatives to combat even in the most critical situations. Unfortunately, after this, things start to fall down fast and hard. You've got KOTOR, and the plethora of other BioWare titles, which ties how you handle npc interactions to a moral system which locks or unlocks certain content and (in the case of KOTOR specifically) certain skills/abilities. And then the vast majority of other games that give you option on HOW to kill and whether you ransack the corpses afterwards or not.

A use-based system and a balanced economy would fix this, but may not be fun. While Arcanum gave experience for every strike struck by your mc, this typically ended in death, ya know, to maximize benefits. In a use-based system, your character would get appropriate rewards for whatever role they filled that particular battle. Eventually, your end-game result is an organic representation of how you play the game instead of some arbitrary abstraction and amalgamation of points. Giving players more mid-combat options such as switching to ranged weapons to pick off fleeing opponents would also be interesting.

Designers could also take the time to make it advantageous to leave enemies alive, as mentioned above, Way of The Samurai has had this since at least the 3rd entry, and Mount & Blade (arguably) encourages using non-lethal combat.

Another option is make combat more lethal. If combat is dangerous as hell, and you can avoid it, intelligently picking and choosing your battles while stealthing past the rest of encounters (ala Thief), then you have something to gain from not being Super Awesome Ultra Guy. A game that does this well, IMO, that I've played is Neo Scavenger. Medical treatment is extremely expensive and, as far as I know, there is only one spot on the world map you can receive it.

So, yeah, kill all enemies is the norm. It's standard. It isn't an adventure anymore, it's a bloodbath. There is no journey, just the trail of corpses you leave between Starter Town and Bad Guy Tower.
 

Somberlain

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Combat can be deep, but any rpg that focuses on it, as the main method of interacting with the world, is going to inherently be shallow in its execution.

I'm glad to see new users who understand what is an RPG. I recommend you take part in further discussion regarding the topic in this thread. It is aimed specifically to prestigious gentlemen such as yourself.
 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
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Combat can be deep, but any rpg that focuses on it, as the main method of interacting with the world, is going to inherently be shallow in its execution.

I'm glad to see new users who understand what is an RPG. I recommend you take part in further discussion regarding the topic in this thread. It is aimed specifically to prestigious gentlemen such as yourself.

You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action. -RpgCodex

Lol, after examining the link I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not. Don't get me wrong, I love combat centric rpgs. Working my way through Wiz6-8 and also playing Elminage: Original on the side. As it stands, combatfag rpgs are typically the most polished, but also more rare (At least, the good ones are). However, they aren't the sole consumption of my rpg diet.

I have a lot of pointed things to say about the typical "AAA" rpg. To summarize though, they should be pushing gameplay over graphics or story. Always should have been.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,693
Combat can be deep, but any rpg that focuses on it, as the main method of interacting with the world, is going to inherently be shallow in its execution.

I'm glad to see new users who understand what is an RPG. I recommend you take part in further discussion regarding the topic in this thread. It is aimed specifically to prestigious gentlemen such as yourself.

You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action. -RpgCodex

Lol, after examining the link I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
I wanted to add that I absolutely despise having the control of my character taken away because muh STORYFAGGOT reasons

LIke hey m8 there's that segment where we have very easy encounter you're supposed to lose but everybody but our playersters will beat it easily.

I know - let's scrap it and replace it with cutscene.


Man, ur a genius.

Seriously speaking, people who do shit like that should get hanged by balls. Opening cutscene - I understand. Otherwise taking any amount of control away from the player for whatever reason is rage worthy and I hope everybody who does it is fucking retarded.
Quote from that thread.

 

Alkarl

Learned
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Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
Oh, well, shit, yeah, I agree with that. 1000%. I own books, for when I want to read a story. I could even invest in Audio books if I need voiced dialogue. This is why I love Dark Souls. "Worlds ending or some shit, Idk, figure it out."
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Killing enemies give you: XP, loot, possibly skill raised (trained by use).

Letting enemies go give you: zip. I dont see a game give you shit. Mind you, some game have limited resources and the xp+loot+skill raise doesnt worth the expenditure in resource killing them (bullets, HP, time...) that we rather avoid fighting them, but it's a different issue from letting them go.
 

Vibalist

Arcane
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Jul 21, 2008
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Play a paladin, play a villain. It doesn't matter: at the end of the day, we are all calculators trying to determine the maximum XPs we can get from any event in a game. If I got 6 more xps for letting an enemy go than killing them, I would have the eighth in honor in the first 15 minutes of a game. I am saying is, it all depends. We rarely messed with Deionarra's ghost not because we are tenderhearted suckers, but because we wanted max xps and raise dead. If the programmers made the game so that constantly lying to her got us an extra point of CON early on in the game, we'd all be feeling kinda crappy right now but would find a way to make our peace with our large pool of HPs.

I kind of agree with this, but not quite. If a game is able to offer some good story incentives for taking a path that rewards you with less loot and/or XP, then that can work as well. Becoming a slaver in FO2 is a choice that yields very little in terms of XP or rewards, as the immediate bonuses are greatly outweighed by the negative consequences that last throughout the game. But doing it at least once is fun because you get to see more than a few NPC's recoil in terror and disgust when you greet them and it's a self imposed challenge which can be very fun if you're replaying the game.

If RPG's had more choices like this then I think you could argue that not everything needs to yield XP in order to be worthwhile. If, for instance, the game gives you a reputation for being a merciful soul if you always let your foes run away and this reputation actually impacts the story by, say, opening up a new path in the main quest, then the loss of XP and loot could quite easily be offset by this.
 

Naveen

Arcane
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Aug 23, 2015
Messages
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Morale checks are one of the most underutilized rules in RPGs although they were essential in pen & paper D&D; that's why you had those 1st edition crazy encounter tables with 40-200 bandits and the like. It was not assumed you had to kill them all. In fact, without those rules combat didn't make much sense or it became extremely difficult. Unfortunately, like the importance of charisma (reaction, leadership, and followers) people quickly forgot about them. The fun part of being a high-level character was not only that you could fight ogres instead of goblins, but that you could fight ARMIES of goblins.

I guess it's an issue of simplicity and laziness. It's easier to design something where the goal is to kill everything. The unit disappears from the game so you only have to think about how much gold and xp it gives. A possible solution would be to give experience per encounter, not per unit killed, and that most gold came from chests, treasures, and so on, not from looting every silly kobold and selling every item they carry.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,269
Earthbound had a lot of encounters that end with enemy surrender. Mechanic-wise you kill the enemy in battle but you get messages "knocked off" or "surrender" or "he isn't anymore angry".

In Blue Dragon Episode 2 against a boss you could choose if kill him or defend for some turns to make him change idea about you.

Are there any games where enemies surrender?
Mount & Blade has a pretty vivid system of capturing troops after battle, along with notable generals and enemies to take hostage. I don't recall them actually laying down their arms during battle just running away and then go to negotiations.

Was just knock them with bashing weapons. In case of lords you could "kill" with a sword too and they would be captured since they are immortal.
 

Alkarl

Learned
Joined
Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
Was just knock them with bashing weapons. In case of lords you could "kill" with a sword too and they would be captured since they are immortal.

Yeah but with the lords it was some crap rng. Did anyone ever figure out how that worked exactly? As far as action rpgs go, the game that did this best, till this day, was Dynasty Warriors 5 Empires where you could guarantee an officer capture by depleting their morale and/or defeating them in a base you own. They cocked it up in every entry since then.
 

Norfleet

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Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Killing enemies give you: XP, loot, possibly skill raised (trained by use).

Letting enemies go give you: zip. I dont see a game give you shit. Mind you, some game have limited resources and the xp+loot+skill raise doesnt worth the expenditure in resource killing them (bullets, HP, time...) that we rather avoid fighting them, but it's a different issue from letting them go.
Letting enemies go doesn't HAVE to give you zip. D&D technically grants XP for any enemy defeated, killing them is not a requirement. If any enemy routed from the field still gave you XP, there would be no value other than your own bloodthirstiness, XP-wise, for pursuing them.

Similarly, if gear has weight, and combatants can move faster by discarding their gear, fleeing enemies that discard their gear on the battlefield to get away from you takes care of the loot issue: You won't even be ABLE to slaughter them unless you invest specifically in abilities and setups designed for the pursuit of routed foes, nor will there be significant value in doing this because they will discard their heavy weapons and shields to get away from you. Adventurers are very unlikely to be able to pursue random fleeing goblins, nor particularly motivated to do so because all of the XP has already been earned for defeating them and all of their heavy encumberance will be discarded so that they can escape you: In order to even give chase to them at all, you'd have to discard your own gear and supplies to be light enough to outrun them, and adventurers are always going to be carrying more supplies than enemies fighting near their home turf will. Enemies on their own ground can abandon their supplies and simply resupply at home, distant adventurers far from home cannot.

Aggressive pursuit can even be discouraged: If players choose to discard their supplies so they can run down fleeing foes, they may find the retreat is actually a feint and that their supplies are pillaged while left undefended. Strategery!
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Your imaginary setting require game developers code in a routine specifically making fleeing enemies drop their inventory on the run.

Does any game, ever, do that?

Not that it's not cool, but that is a bit too easy leading to bugs, and exploits~
 

Alkarl

Learned
Joined
Oct 9, 2016
Messages
472
They don't, but it isn't difficult to implement, considering most games give enemies inventory. Just shows how lazy most designers/devs are. They could do a lot of cool shit, but why try when you can safely make a few million by hardly giving a shit?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,693
Your imaginary setting require game developers code in a routine specifically making fleeing enemies drop their inventory on the run.
I remember advice. When you are runing away drop some stuff, perhaps they would stop and check what's inside.

P5 does that, kinda.
 

*-*/\--/\~

Cipher
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
912
Mordheim City of The Damned has a good system.

Well, not really. More often than not, it just fucks ip the (secondary) mission objectives, where you are supposed to take out a certain character, but the enemy breaks before you even see them. Not to mention robbing you of loot opportunities.
 

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