Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2: a great simulation wrapped in a boring game?

[PorkyThePaladin]

I know JA2 has a lot of fans here, and look, I get it, the level of shit it simulates is pretty astounding. Every time I start playing it, I get all giddy with excitement, ooohh the 40,000 things it takes into consideration with the change to hit calculations, or morale calculations, or the other 20,000 aspects of combat. It's real cool shit.

And then inevitably, I get bored and give up after capturing a few maps. You could say I get filtered, cause it usually happens after I lose some battle, but I play on 1.13 with regular Ironman, so I could just reload and try again, and when I do, I succeed after a try or two, but then I just always get bored.

There aren't really that many great tactics games imo, but I do like some others, for example Battle Brothers, which I absolutely played the shit out of. So why do I love BB and get bored by JA2? Some thoughts below:

1. Horrible UI and presentation of information: if you are going to have such a depth of simulation as JA2, it would definitely help to have relevant game info close at hand as you play. I started playing games back when reading the manuals was a must, so I guess that's JA2's excuse, but the thing is, the manual often doesn't contain clear information either (especially since 1.13 changes a lot of stuff from vanilla), and also playing with a manual in hand for months as you learn the 1001 things about the game seems like a bad idea. Would it have killed them to include relevant game info tidbits in the UI?

2. The glacial pace of gameplay: combat starts and your guys can barely move, spending 80-100 APs to move 1/10th the distance to the enemy. Then you constantly have to readjust their posture (e.g. prone to crouch to improve movement rates, then back down to prone), which if you multiply by several squad members and then by the number of turns, holy shit. Then you shoot, and your 98 Marksmanship merc with a clear path to a standing enemy soldier misses 5 straight times, because there is the other 20 aim factors you didn't think about. Enemies of course shoot beyond optimal range all the time, but hey it's ok, since they seem to have infinite ammo and generally outnumber you 2-3 to 1, why not, eventually they will get you with sheer volume. Still, both sides miss like 90% of shots with 1.13 NCTH system, so again, the vast majority of this game, you are doing boring repetitive shit, missing shots, moving your guys at a snail's pace toward the enemy, changing posture.

Now the game's depth does allow real deep RL tactics shit, I know, but it takes even more time to do those. Like distracting the enemy from the front, while you get flankers from the sides. But how long would that take, given the movement speeds involved? And some of the most popular tactics seem to be straight up cheese, like turtling up somewhere and picking off enemies one by one as they come at you.

I feel like with a much better and more modern UI, and sped up gameplay (more reasonable chance to hit if stats/equipment are good, more effective movement), this game could've been significantly better, but as it is, it just feels obsolete.

 

[agris]

wrote this in a bad mood

Spoiler

PorkyThePaladin

We understand the trade-offs here. You get to have horrible opinions, and a few other - misguided - people pretend to care about them. Bless their hearts.

But lets focus on the real issue: your posts suck.

I don't know if you're aware, but you often contradict yourself. Basic logic seems foreign to you. That's ok, everyone has their strengths, but you don't need to push it in our face so often.

So we get it, X game sucks. You did it all right, and despite legions of players having no complaints remotely similar to yours, you have found that this game is total shit. congratulations!

 

[thesheeep]

I'm in a somewhat similar camp as you, having just lost interest in playing JA3 despite it theoretically being exactly my kind of game.
And JA2 was the same a few years ago when I last tried.
And then wondering why.

I don't think either 1) or 2) are really the issues here.
You are right in that they are issues, but then again, they are issues in other games as well I do enjoy a lot more (say, for example OpenXCom with its various mods). Or those games might have other clear issues, but I spend a lot more time enjoying them nonetheless.

JA2 greatly annoyed me with its ammo micro management bullshit, but OpenXCom has the same issue and it also greatly annoys me, yet I enjoy it a lot more. JA3 actually did away with that ammo bullshit, but I still lost interest. So, clearly, that can't be the problem, right?

However, I found that for me, the setting itself might just be what keeps me from not getting bored.
All of sci-fi, fantasy and to some extent historical settings (alt history or not) just attract me vastly more than any pure (or pseudo like JA) real world "current" scenario, and then manage to keep me interested for longer.
I think something about putting myself into a more fictional scenario just engages me more.
It's been something I've been pondering lately, but haven't fully figured out yet.

Might that be something of an issue for you, too PorkyThePaladin ?

 

[Lemming42]

It's a good game but yeah the UI doesn't really work with you most of the time. I can't really be arsed playing it these days, too much like work. Also I know it's a huge part of the fun for most people and is a crucial aspect of the game, but managing the teams on the map, dealing with the advancing clock, and fucking about with everyone's inventory starts to grate on me after a while; I'm only really interested in the combat. I feel the same way about XCOM.

JA3 was pretty good, not as in depth as JA2 and not quite as fun as JA2 can be if you really get into the swing of it, but it's an alright game. Get the "show hit chance" mod, the game was intended to be played without it but goddamn it I don't like wasting my whole turn on shit that has like 18% chance to hit.

 

[Ryzer]

It's funny because that's valid criticism that applies to Underrail too, including the constant backtracking to resupply your inventory in ammunition, the 0-fun FedEX quests and the aggressively boring beginning of the game until the game opens up after 10 hours of play.
And then, it's still boring and you realize you have lost your time for nothing.

 

[Krivol]

When I first played JA 2 I thought it was shit.

I tried a few years later and still didn't get it - brownish, ugly visuals, brownish, ugly UI, silly-looking soldiers, short range of every freaking weapon in a squad (oh and mercs starting a war with pistols... yeah, that's just stupid!).

After a while, I tried again and...

It's one of the best games I have ever played, I am replying to it occasionally.

Try without 1.13 first. The mod gives it so many options it may start looking tedious and boring, so it's better to start with the vanilla (or stracciatella) version.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Porky the Popamoler rides again!

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Amazing how you got it completely backwards. It's a fantastic game with a great UI, yet inadequate as a simulation.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Congrats porky, you managed to make seven people read your post. Hopefully they've learned their lesson now and won't make the same mistake in future.

 

[Grauken]

Congrats porky, you managed to make seven people read your post. Hopefully they've learned their lesson now and won't make the same mistake in future.

We are not learning animals



See you in the next moronic porky thread

 

[Andnjord]

Congrats porky, you managed to make seven people read your post. Hopefully they've learned their lesson now and won't make the same mistake in future.

Porky's posts are a guilty pleasure, don't judge me!

 

[0sacred]

JA2 never really grabbed me. But then I'm not a combatfag.

Farthest I ever got was when I played it on release, borrowed the CD from a friend of mine. I savescummed and cheesed the shit out of night missions. That was kinda fun. Now I just can't get back into it.

 

[PGG]

I feel you. JA2's slow gameplay and clunky UI can be a buzzkill. Battle Brothers does a better job at keeping things smooth and accessible. JA2's potential is buried under its old-school quirks.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

However, I found that for me, the setting itself might just be what keeps me from not getting bored.
All of sci-fi, fantasy and to some extent historical settings (alt history or not) just attract me vastly more than any pure (or pseudo like JA) real world "current" scenario, and then manage to keep me interested for longer.
I think something about putting myself into a more fictional scenario just engages me more.
It's been something I've been pondering lately, but haven't fully figured out yet.

Might that be something of an issue for you, too PorkyThePaladin ?

No, that's not it, I am totally fine with the setting, if anything, it's quite original compared to the usual fantasy/sci-fi fare.

I definitely think it's the gameplay tedium, partially due to slow or repetitive gameplay mechanics (like missing all the time or slow movement speed), and partially due to the lack of information provided to the player (no to-hit % displayed, no information about cover effectiveness, etc). For example, as far as the latter is concerned, if you click Del the game displays cover areas (green = safe, red = vulnerable, etc). But it displays them for all visible enemies, afaik, so basically in a typical combat scenario, ALL areas are red because some enemy can shoot at them without cover. But I believe it doesn't take enemy to-hit chance into account, so in one area an enemy might have a clear shot from 2 miles away, so nothing to worry about really.

I can't really be arsed playing it these days, too much like work.

THIS is exactly what this game feels like, every time I try to play it. It feels like work, go do your research (ie look up all the game mechanics online for days/weeks), then maybe it will be fun. A lot of people suggest starting with vanilla, instead of 1.13, because 1.13 brings a lot of complexity that will overwhelm a player who is not familiar with the game already, but it's hard to play vanilla today, aside from graphics/resolution, it's kinda lacking in terms of gun selection, character skills, etc. So maybe the divide is between the people who organically played JA2 when it came out and then gradually learned it and graduated to 1.13 and between those who are trying to get into it years later. I dunno, but it definitely feels like work.

 

[Serus]

Congrats porky, you managed to make seven people read your post. Hopefully they've learned their lesson now and won't make the same mistake in future.

I didn't. I entered the thread and started reading from post nr 2. And stopped at post 13. I won't comment on the issue itself because of that - duh. I only am saying that JA2 is an awesome game that is the exact opposite of boring. Just don't start playing with mods the first time. Vanilla (with plenty of guns, also SF if you find the idea fun) is all you need for the first playthrough. IF you like it a lot, THEN go 1.13.
BTW this is true for most games. Exceptions being games that are broken in vanilla or have technical issues you need to correct to play.

 

[spectre]

IMO, that's what happens when you try and sell JA2 as an RPG. Optimizing movement, inventories and all the related micromanagement is what
appeals to those unlucky to have developed an inkling for strategy games (possibly a product of the right kind of vaccination, but I digress)

I feel that 1.13 is too overhyped for its own good. Don't get me wrong, it's still the best tactical sandbox there is,
but it has suffered from overgrowth and configuring it just right is downright tedious and requires a pretty in depth knowledge of mechanics.
If you go about it backwards and skip the necessary part about playing way too much vanilla, it comes apart.

 

[janior]

maybe rppggames aren't for u good sir
i like 1.13 but its bloat if u are such a BITCH ... then play vanilla its fine

 

[Sentinel]

Jagged Alliance 2 was never good. That's why people have modded the fuck out of it and pretend the modded version is the vanilla game.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

There aren't really that many great tactics games imo

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...amazon-pirates-death-to-the-star-gods.148252/

It's funny because that's valid criticism that applies to Underrail too

No it doesn't.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Jagged Alliance 2 was never good. That's why people have modded the fuck out of it and pretend the modded version is the vanilla game.

* Straciatella. Like vanilla, only better

 

[Sweeper]

The way you feel about JA2 is the way I feel about your posts Porky.

 

[Lord_Potato]

I know JA2 has a lot of fans here, and look, I get it, the level of shit it simulates is pretty astounding. Every time I start playing it, I get all giddy with excitement, ooohh the 40,000 things it takes into consideration with the change to hit calculations, or morale calculations, or the other 20,000 aspects of combat. It's real cool shit.

And then inevitably, I get bored and give up after capturing a few maps. You could say I get filtered, cause it usually happens after I lose some battle, but I play on 1.13 with regular Ironman, so I could just reload and try again, and when I do, I succeed after a try or two, but then I just always get bored.

There aren't really that many great tactics games imo, but I do like some others, for example Battle Brothers, which I absolutely played the shit out of. So why do I love BB and get bored by JA2? Some thoughts below:

1. Horrible UI and presentation of information: if you are going to have such a depth of simulation as JA2, it would definitely help to have relevant game info close at hand as you play. I started playing games back when reading the manuals was a must, so I guess that's JA2's excuse, but the thing is, the manual often doesn't contain clear information either (especially since 1.13 changes a lot of stuff from vanilla), and also playing with a manual in hand for months as you learn the 1001 things about the game seems like a bad idea. Would it have killed them to include relevant game info tidbits in the UI?

I didn't hate the UI. There are lots of redundancies, menu options with button shortcuts. Once you study the manual a bit, you can quickly learn it.

And I wouldn't really want the game to give me the odds of every shot.

2. The glacial pace of gameplay: combat starts and your guys can barely move, spending 80-100 APs to move 1/10th the distance to the enemy. Then you constantly have to readjust their posture (e.g. prone to crouch to improve movement rates, then back down to prone), which if you multiply by several squad members and then by the number of turns, holy shit. Then you shoot, and your 98 Marksmanship merc with a clear path to a standing enemy soldier misses 5 straight times, because there is the other 20 aim factors you didn't think about. Enemies of course shoot beyond optimal range all the time, but hey it's ok, since they seem to have infinite ammo and generally outnumber you 2-3 to 1, why not, eventually they will get you with sheer volume. Still, both sides miss like 90% of shots with 1.13 NCTH system, so again, the vast majority of this game, you are doing boring repetitive shit, missing shots, moving your guys at a snail's pace toward the enemy, changing posture.

The game definately does not play fair with the chances to hit and enemy accuracy accross two screens. But the 'glacial' pace didn't bother me, maybe because I don't have attention span of a goldfish.

Now the game's depth does allow real deep RL tactics shit, I know, but it takes even more time to do those. Like distracting the enemy from the front, while you get flankers from the sides. But how long would that take, given the movement speeds involved? And some of the most popular tactics seem to be straight up cheese, like turtling up somewhere and picking off enemies one by one as they come at you.

What's cheese about it? Every army wishes to defeat enemy piecemeal. JA2 mercenaries aren't any different. Why fight at a disadvantage?

I feel like with a much better and more modern UI, and sped up gameplay (more reasonable chance to hit if stats/equipment are good, more effective movement), this game could've been significantly better, but as it is, it just feels obsolete.

You sound like someone who'd consider new X-Coms over good old Enemy Unknown and Terror from the Deep from 1994/95 respectively. To each his own I guess.

I did my 1st full playthrough of JA2 (Straciatella) this May, and had a blast. Sure, the game irritated me from time to time but it was due to cheating, not a slow, methodical pace.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Ah, Porky's threads age like fine wine...

 

[luj1]

Porky you are literally a GOD of bad takes lmao

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

If by bad, you mean good, I won't argue with the rest of your supposition.